Human Rights documents for Macedonians in Greece

[Vangelovski]

Affirmative, they do have the right to affiliate politically and express their culture as they see fit.
The right to congregate is not obstructed, im sure your familiar with Rainbow party. Hell, we even have the Greens (Tremopoulos). What else do you want?
Individual liberty to self determination or self identity is a non issue. Come see for yourself. Anything else is seccesionist IMO.

Everything you just wrote is a complete distortion of the facts on the ground. What about the numerous Macedonian organisations that have been refused registration or the many Macedonian individuals who have been refused permission to change their legal names to their former Macedonian (i.e., non-hellenised) names? How about the fact that Greece refuses to recognise their Macedonian identity, even on an individual basis?

Further, claiming that the right to freedom of association is not violated in Greece and then claiming that the right to self-determination for those who have decided to exercise it on a collective basis is seccesionist (as something negative) is a complete contradiction. What kind of a "libertarian" are you?

[Voltron]

Affirmative, they do have the right to affiliate politically and express their culture as they see fit.
The right to congregate is not obstructed, im sure your familiar with Rainbow party. Hell, we even have the Greens (Tremopoulos). What else do you want?
Individual liberty to self determination or self identity is a non issue. Come see for yourself. Anything else is seccesionist IMO.

[Vangelovski]

I like your sig Vangelovski, John Adams.
Im a liberatarian and I dont buy into the "minority" bandwagon. Its a failed concept.

What minority bandwagon? The human rights, or natural rights, that I was referring to are individual. This is exactly what Greece is violating. Individual natural rights to freedom of conscious (or freedom of thought), freedom of expression and freedom of association. Denying Macedonians the ability to self-identity as they see fit and to associate with others as they see fit is a direct violation of natural law.

Further, Macedonians, like all people, have an inalienable right to self-determination, that is, as free individuals to join with others to form a political community to decide their own affairs for themselves.

Being a "libertarian", you should be familiar with these concepts.

[Mactruth]

Hi George, I believe there are additional human rights violations in here:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5118goto=newpost

People need to make fellow Macedonians aware of these issues, since these events are rapidly deleted by Greek and Bulgarian users on Wikipedia.

[Voltron]

I like your sig Vangelovski, John Adams.
Im a liberatarian and I dont buy into the "minority" bandwagon. Its a failed concept.

[Voltron]

human individual rights are inalienable, not collective rights

[Vangelovski]

Greece's "minorities" are defined by the Laussane treaty with Turkey.

Do you even kow what that means?

The fact that Greece has some idiotic treaty does not mean that minorities do not exist within its current borders, nor does it abrogate their responsibility to protect their human rights, which are INALIENABLE.

[Voltron]

Greece's "minorities" are defined by the Laussane treaty with Turkey. It is not specific against the Macedonians. And after what we saw happen with Kosovo, I doubt it will change any time soon. Unless the Balkans finally stabalise completely. Probably the reason why Greece is pushing for all Balkan countries to enter the EU in 2014.

[George S.]

how about the sending of neo nazi bullies to beat up professor Friedman when he tried to produce the macedonian greek dictionary.How about back in 1925 in regards to the ABCEDAR Primer where greece recognized the need to teach it's macedonian minority macedonian. but later changed it's mind.When the srbs & bulgarians found out that greece was asked to introduce the primer they became jealous & quarrelsome as to why they weren't asked to do it for their minorities.
Mactruth well done there are quite a number of examples i'm sure readers can bring up.Legislation forbidding this & that & also greek officials in government recognising the macedonian population even.

[Mactruth]

This "name issue" is not about a name, it’s about deeper issues, which Greece cannot and does not want exposed: the Macedonian minority in Greece and the partition of Macedonia, which was scolded upon by the nationally awakening Macedonians at that time. The Macedonian minority is being suppressed through intimidation and fear, in which Greece believes elimination or forced assimilation of native inhabitants can finally make Macedonia only Greek:

1) The ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece as shown by the Eurominority: http://www.eurominority.org/version/...p-nations2.asp

2) HELLENIC REPUBLIC Top secret document advocating Macedonian cultural genocide within Greece - Feb 16, 1982

http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pasoksh8.jpg

3) Hellenism in the Near East - G. Soteriadis 1918, London http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/7...areastgfb4.jpg

4) Greece denies there is a Macedonian ethnicity, Macedonian language and Macedonian minority within Greece:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/9219/

5)Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups - 1980

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1971/harvardencyclopediaofamwc1.jpg

6) Greek government bans ethnic Macedonian cultural centre being built in Greece (why ban it if there's no Macedonians in Greece to build it?):

http://www.macedonianhr.org.au/Bans_on_Cultural_Centre.html

7) USA: Greece still does not recognize Macedonian minority http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/novina...6&NrSection=20

8) Denying ethnic Identity - The Macedonians of Greece - Human Rights Watch Greece:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greece945.pdf

A quote from the series: "Although ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece make up a large minority with their own language and culture, their internationally-recognized human rights and even their existence are vigorously denied by the Greek government. Free expression is restricted; several Macedonians have been prosecuted and convicted for the peaceful expression of their views. Moreover, ethnic Macedonians are discriminated against by the government's failure to permit the teaching of the Macedonian language. And ethnic Macedonians, particularly rights activists, are harassed by the government — followed and threatened by security forces — and subjected to economic and social pressures resulting from this harassment. All of these actions have led to a marked climate of fear in which a large number of ethnic Macedonians are reluctant to assert their Macedonian identity or to express their views openly."

9) The UN in 2009 "asks" Greece to recognize the Macedonian minority in Greece, following an independent report by Gay McDougall

http://micnews.com.mk/node/17132

10) Council of Europe in 2010 argues Greece to recognize the Macedonian minority in Greece, and give them human rights protection

http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=72264267&lId=2

11) 2009 Human Rights Report of Greece, some quotes
"The courts did not allow the registration of nonprofit associations of nationals who claimed to be of Macedonian ethnic origin, charging that the founders of such groups were seeking to undermine the country's territorial integrity and cultural identity"
"The government did not recognize the existence of a Slavic dialect, called "Macedonian" by its speakers, spoken in the northwestern area of the country. However, a small number of Slavic speakers insisted on identifying themselves as "Macedonian," a designation that generated strong opposition from other citizens."
" The independent expert found that those identifying themselves as ethnic Macedonians still reported discrimination and harassment. Representatives of this minority claimed that they were denied the right to freedom of association, citing unsuccessful efforts since 1990 to register the organization Home of Macedonian Culture in Florina."

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/eur/136034.htm

please add to the list