Albanianization in Macedonia

[Bratot]

Before we continue I think it's better if you read his reply one page back, because you aren't able to see the difference yet or deliberately you're tryng to mix apples and oranges to cover up your failing.

I have a good reason to believe it's the second one.

[Risto the Great]

Bratot, I will certainly continue my discussions with protivpropaganda. It looks like it will be interesting, but I fear our thought processes are not too different and we will soon have little to discuss. However, it is better if you tell me whether you believe the slave/serf mentality types are the majority in Macedonia or not. Once we clarify this point, you and I can continue this discussion in a logical fashion.

[Risto the Great]

Actually, let me clarify. Having re-read some of protivpropaganda's earlier posts on this thread, I cannot say we are terribly in agreement on a number of issues.

[Vangelovski]

Мојот пријател, кој за волја на вистината навистина е д-р, ти го даде одговорот во неговата реплика до Ристо.

Затоа би Ве замолил г-дине Вангеловски да се воздржите од понатамошни игри на зборови и инфантилни обиди за релативизирање на Вашиот навредувачки и понижувачки однос.

Братот,

Јас Ви поставив прашање околу Вашиот коментар, а не мислењето на "Професорот".

Верувам дека "Проф. Д-р" Противпропаганда навистина е "Д-р" (во Македонски кругови), бидејќи го познавам "стандардот" на неговото образование. Неговиот обид да не убеди дека е накаков "експерт" е тактика карактеристична од Македонските кадри кога нема да успеат да го докажет она со нивните мисли и аргументи.

[Bratot]

Bratot, I will certainly continue my discussions with protivpropaganda. It looks like it will be interesting, but I fear our thought processes are not too different and we will soon have little to discuss. However, it is better if you tell me whether you believe the slave/serf mentality types are the majority in Macedonia or not. Once we clarify this point, you and I can continue this discussion in a logical fashion.

I never disagreed about the existing slave mentality in Macedonia and I acknowledge this problem, without speculating about the extent the current situation is worrying.

But I refuse entering in a process of 'enlightenment' by addressing to these people with derrogative terminology such as 'Vassals' or 'Slaves'.

Lets not fool ourselves that anyone will follow us after. If you care to prevent this you will not continue in such manner, just apply the common sense.

I don't ask for more.

[Vangelovski]

I never disagreed about the existing slave mentality in Macedonia and I acknowledge this problem, without speculating about the extent the current situation is worrying.

But I refuse entering in a process of 'enlightenment' by addressing to these people with derrogative terminology such as 'Vassals' or 'Slaves'.

Lets not fool ourselves that anyone will follow us after. If you care to prevent this you will not continue in such manner, just apply the common sense.

I don't ask for more.

Bratot,

Seeing as you now acknowledge the existence of a slave mentality, how would you describe this concept?

[Risto the Great]

This is the second time that you have misquoted me. The first is:
I wrote:
it is the individual who carries the responsibility of defending the freedom he enjoys, that is, if he wishes to remain an individual.

You quoted:

From this we can blame the individual if the individual is not enjoying freedom. I don't think we are too far apart on this.

Without the second part the sentence loses its intended meaning. Since I meant that there exist a will or the lack of it and it can be manipulated in one way or the other.

If he no longer is an individual, he is no longer free. I can't read anything more into your statement and still think I agree with you on this.

The second time is the same. Only partial quotes which change the meaning.
I did not say that Macedonians were slaves or serfs rather I stated that a slave mentality and a serf behaviour exist. Most Macedonians behave and think of themselves as such or to say it more precisely they are led to think in such a way. Macedonians aren't slaves nor are they serf at the moment per se but the majority does have such a world view and do behave accordingly to it. I should also mention the saying:
A happy slave is the worst enemy of freedom.
This statement give a very clear picture of why current propaganda reinforces such attitudes and behaviours in Macedonia.

If they were slaves or serfs, they would probably have rings through their noses and be led around on chains. If you look at almost all of my posts on this issue I describe a kind of mentality. This mentality is the majority in Macedonia according to you. And I fully agree with you on the following statement:
A happy slave is the worst enemy of freedom.
I think a little more anger might be a good thing for the "individuals" of Macedonia.

As for the witty rule of law comment I thank you for showing the error in my writing. Strong individuals will uphold the rule of law and will change any law that is inherently against their interests.
There, much better, isn't it?

Infinitely better.

I came here as a well intentioned Macedonian patriot with experience to discuss Macedonian matters with other patriots and maybe, just maybe, find ways to counter the psyops which our nation is under in an organised fashion. I have written about one of the end results but haven't mentioned the means by which it should be achevied. It is highly noticable if one read my posts carefully and with an open mind.
I haven't written that many posts and if you had read them then you would have noticed that I didn't start anything, I didn't provoce anybody nor did I offend anybody but was provoced and was offended.

I will be honest and say I missed some of your earlier posts. You certainly took on a different persona when challenged though. One of your earlier posts touched on the means of achieving a solution which included the following:

First we create support for ourselves as a democratic country and stabilise our economy then we can put them in their rightfull place. Even though there are numerous problems things are begining to move in the right direction. Today most of the psychological operations (propaganda) in Macedonia is aimed at stopping these processes.
This is very complex and it can't be thoroughly explained in one post but I think that one can get a general picture as what is needed to be done.

Stabilising the economy makes sense. But Macedonia recently took out an IMF loan which is absolutely the antithesis of progress in this regard in my opinion. You have outlined a government (and opposition) and bureaucracy that still remains committed to psychological endeavours aimed at diminishing the individual's will to demand rights as humans much less Macedonians. Everyone seems to be willing to blame everyone except themselves. I have been to Macedonia a fair few times in the last few years and think I am well aware of the apathy, resentment and "individuality" there.

You took away from me the right to rant that I will inevitably win and this isn't very Macedonian of you, but I like it.
What I was actually saying was that I live in Macedonia. I experience first hand what you all read in the newspapers. I also do analysis of the things going on and have been doing them since the late 1980s.
Also, as evidence that I wasn't going for the kill was that I offered help with information if one needed it.
I didn't come here as an enemy but was percieved as one through no fault of my own. As soon as the pissing contests are over I will go about doing what I came to do and that is to contemplate solutions and learn a little more about my diaspora, its likes, dislikes and hopes for the sole reason as to implement them into the strategies of the future counter psyops to be held which will be beneficial to our interests.

I must be Macedonian, I won't let you win easily. In fact I want to remind you that Macedonians in the Diaspora have fought longer and harder to be Macedonians than Macedonians in Macedonia. I am happy to discuss this later when our bladders are full(er).

How will we change the minds of the individuals in Macedonia protivpropaganda? What will it take to make them aware of the sinister machinations that exist in the tiers of Government, the bureaucracy, the army, the education system, the police, the health system and lastly (in order of priority) the ethnic Albanians?

[Bratot]

Братот,

Јас Ви поставив прашање околу Вашиот коментар, а не мислењето на "Професорот".

Верувам дека "Проф. Д-р" Противпропаганда навистина е "Д-р" (во Македонски кругови), бидејќи го познавам "стандардот" на неговото образование. Неговиот обид да не убеди дека е накаков "експерт" е тактика карактеристична од Македонските кадри кога нема да успеат да го докажет она со нивните мисли и аргументи.

Ти постави непостоечка аналогија, соодветно на тоа ти одговорив да го погледнеш уште еднаш мислењето на Противпропаганда пред да продолжиш со имагинарни тези.

Наместо тоа, ти повторно се впушташ во ниски дискфалификации што додуше повеќе збори за твојот карактер и твојата потреба за деградирање на луѓето со кои не можеш да се носиш.

Тоа е типична методологија на Службите која гледам е карактеристична и преку Океанот, дефокусирање на поентата со ад-хоминем аргументи.

[julie]

How do we achieve "enlightenment" on the Macedonians with the slave mentality.
being educators and using internet is a only very small part of this.
To effect a shift in social consciousness, there needs to be an awakening for enlightenment to occur.
The awakening will not occur by being derogatory, I agree with that , it is in effect reverse psychology whereby the "victim" will seize an opportunity to discredit the person that is trying to assist the cause.
It becomes a negative process whereby the "victim" starts the rants of further self torture by accusing the person trying to help them out of their situation by labelling. A prime example of what i am trying to say here is, the diaspora, is trying to achieve a shift in the mental consciousness of the individual in a society that has only known servitude, and the majority, blame the diaspora for "spitting" at them.

Bratot, what other forum members are discouraged with is this. Hence the impatience.

I understand what you are getting at, but for their to be a change effected, must happen sooner rather than later. The diaspora is discouraged, as the writing is on the wall, and time is of the utmost essence here.
How do we empower RoM, without constantly being belittled in the diaspora. We are all here for the same reason, it wears thin, and is very draining to be constantly attacked by the very people we are trying to help
We need action. Not inaction. Waiting for a shift in the individual in a society which has only known servitude is going to be a very long wait

[Vangelovski]

Ти постави непостоечка аналогија, соодветно на тоа ти одговорив да го погледнеш уште еднаш мислењето на Противпропаганда пред да продолжиш со имагинарни тези.

Наместо тоа, ти повторно се впушташ во ниски дискфалификации што додуше повеќе збори за твојот карактер и твојата потреба за деградирање на луѓето со кои не можеш да се носиш.

Тоа е типична методологија на Службите која гледам е карактеристична и преку Океанот, дефокусирање на поентата со ад-хоминем аргументи.

Bratot,


Now you're just confusing yourself.

"Prof. D-r" Protivpropaganda stated (correctly) that there are Macedonians with a slave mentality. RtG merely re-stated that PP identified the majority of Macedonians as having a slave mentality. YOU directly responded to this by claiming it was an “analogy”. So my question again: Is it only an “analogy” (i.e., correctly identifying the slave mentality) when your friend does it? Is it an insult when someone else correctly identifies YOU as suffering from the slave mentality?

As for diverting attention from the substance of the arguments, that is exactly what YOU have been doing this entire time with your childish complaints about name calling.

[Vangelovski]

I never disagreed about the existing slave mentality in Macedonia and I acknowledge this problem, without speculating about the extent the current situation is worrying.

But I refuse entering in a process of 'enlightenment' by addressing to these people with derrogative terminology such as 'Vassals' or 'Slaves'.

Lets not fool ourselves that anyone will follow us after. If you care to prevent this you will not continue in such manner, just apply the common sense.

I don't ask for more.

Bratot,

Seeing as you now acknowledge the existence of a slave mentality, how would you describe this concept?

[Mastika]

I know there is a presence of Macedonian Muslims with different identities, however we need to admit there is a presence of Albanians in this village, and like most other villages in the Struga region, they did come in the last decades buying land in non-Albanian villages. Albanian nationalism is on the rise in Labunistsa, and the Albanian language is being spoken, so that is why I doubt that they are all Torbeshi.

True, however, compared to other regions in Macedonia such as Polog and the Kicevo region, the amount of Albanians buying former Macedonian land has been limited. The only village in the Struga region which was formerly Macedonian and now Albanian, and that change occured over 60 years ago.

I would say in Labunista a seperate "Torbesh" identity is on the rise if anything, ie. an ethnic identity which is different from Macedonian. Ramiz Merko did try to set up Albanian language classes from Grades 1-3 Labunist, claiming that there were "4,300 Albanians" who were not learning Albanian, however, to the best of my knowledge, the villagers staunchly rejected this idea.

[Bratot]

Bratot,


Now you're just confusing yourself.

"Prof. D-r" Protivpropaganda stated (correctly) that there are Macedonians with a slave mentality. RtG merely re-stated that PP identified the majority of Macedonians as having a slave mentality. YOU directly responded to this by claiming it was an “analogy”. So my question again: Is it only an “analogy” (i.e., correctly identifying the slave mentality) when your friend does it? Is it an insult when someone else correctly identifies YOU as suffering from the slave mentality?

As for diverting attention from the substance of the arguments, that is exactly what YOU have been doing this entire time with your childish complaints about name calling.

This is not the first nor the only thread where You and RtG and Indigen have posted, so lets not make it looks like we are discussing only of your attitude and degradation of Macedonians just for this particular thread.

You have a long history in calling our people Slaves and Vassals and complying with the same style of others.

And that's where my analogy fit for, so don't act like Mother Theresa on this thread and don't play the dumb because I'm sure you understand for what reason I made my objections.

Now you are trying to argue that PP has done the same labelling and to relativize my objection.
It could work for you if that was really the case, but you are insinuating again and trying to pul out a shit back from the toilet.


Do you think you could sell a product line for excessively fat population in America by addressing to them in the commercial:

"I have the solution for you fat-ass! Buy my diet program and spare us from your gigantic square butt!"

Would this approach promote something healthier for your target group or they will just focus on your of offensive terminology?

[Vangelovski]

This is not the first nor the only thread where You and RtG and Indigen have posted, so lets not make it looks like we are discussing only of your attitude and degradation of Macedonians just for this particular thread.

You have a long history in calling our people Slaves and Vassals and complying with the same style of others.

And that's where my analogy fit for, so don't act like Mother Theresa on this thread and don't play the dumb because I'm sure you understand for what reason I made my objections.

Now you are trying to argue that PP has done the same labelling and to relativize my objection.
It could work for you if that was really the case, but you are insinuating again and trying to pul out a shit back from the toilet.


Do you think you could sell a product line for excessively fat population in America by addressing to them in the commercial:

"I have the solution for you fat-ass! Buy my diet program and spare us from your gigantic square butt!"

Would this approach promote something healthier for your target group or they will just focus on your of offensive terminology?

Bratot,

I'm not going to quote where PP identified the slave mentality because anyone with half a peanut in there head has already read it in THIS thread.

In fact, just put PP back on, he was making much more sense.

[indigen]

This is not the first nor the only thread where You and RtG and Indigen have posted, so lets not make it looks like we are discussing only of your attitude and degradation of Macedonians just for this particular thread.

You have a long history in calling our people Slaves and Vassals and complying with the same style of others.

You and your new reinforcement have polluted a perfectly good and required (information) thread with off-topic discussion and maybe the MTO Admin could get it cleaned up and move the off-topic stuff to an appropriately labelled topic in order to leave the original to serve the purpose Niko intended it to do. This is not the first time this has occurred under your diversionary tactics, Bratot.