Albanianization in Macedonia

[Volokin]

I think your taking serious topics lightly. Being racist and or xenophobic is not the same as making generalizations, it is a lot more than that. For you to simply brush off the concept of racism as something "stupid" is a bit worrying. Racism, can be many things, some of which can be: Unfair treatment based on race, ethnicity, or religion, disliking someone based purely and Ra, Eth, or Re. Thinking you are superior to a specific group of people.

Xenophobia, is an irrational fear of another race or ethnicity. We don't have mass scale immigration into our country, and we don't irrationally fear Albanians, so how does that make us "technically" xenophobes. Are fears are not based on irrational imaginary circumstances, but real events that have happened.


You are mincing words and making light of a topic that could make all of us look like a bunch of bigots, which is exactly what the Greeks are, and why we dislike them. Again looking like a bunch of hypocrites wont help anything.

I'm not making light of racism in any way. I'm scoffing at the fact that Macedonians are and will be called racist and xenophobic against the Albanian population, now and in years to come.

If the basis of racism is not generalizations and stereotypes at it's core, what is it then?

Nazi Germany applied the most extreme form of racism on the Jewish population and based on what? Hitler's irrational hate of the Jews, "due" to the common thought that the Jewish population were the reason for Germany's economic downfall and the Treaty of Versailles etc etc. Basically all down to the Jews being the scapegoat of Europe for many centuries, which had been ingrained in people's minds.

Xenophobia, simply, is the dislike of foreigners in one's country. Do the Macedonian people, by and large, like the Albanian population in the roMacedonia? My point being, to then call all of the Macedonian population xenophobic would be wrong, because the whole concept is so individual to certain situations, which is wrong in Macedonian's case.

[Big Bad Sven]

It is a bit amusing how Macedonians decry the racist treatment towards them from Greeks and the international press, and yet many Macedonians have no compunction about doing the same to people they dislike.

No one is saying there aren't problems with Albanians in Macedonia, or Albanian territorial ambitions in the Balkans. But using obscene language against this people is not going to improve relations between the nations.

You need lessons in manners and civility mate.

Just like how the bulgarian slavs cry for more freedom in republic of macedonia but refuse to even recognize macedonian people in Bulgaria or let them live in peace. The irony from you silly bulgies

What does the regular bulgarian slav also think of the roma people that live in Bulgaria? I will give you a hint: their dark fantasies of how they would solve the roma 'problem' would even make Hitler blush.

Stop acting all high and mighty. You guys were Nazi's as well so you cant talk

And also LOL at you thinking one macedonians opinion on shiptars on this forum is ok to be used to paint all macedonians the same.

[Constellation]

Just like how the bulgarian slavs cry for more freedom in republic of macedonia but refuse to even recognize macedonian people in Bulgaria or let them live in peace. The irony from you silly bulgies

What does the regular bulgarian slav also think of the roma people that live in Bulgaria? I will give you a hint: their dark fantasies of how they would solve the roma 'problem' would even make Hitler blush.

Stop acting all high and mighty. You guys were Nazi's as well so you cant talk

And also LOL at you thinking one macedonians opinion on shiptars on this forum is ok to be used to paint all macedonians the same.

Where should I start? First, I am not Bulgarian, so 99% of what you wrote has no bearing on this thread or conversation.

Second, it was not one Macedonian's opinion. It is more than one.

Third, I am not, not by any means, suggesting all Macedonians use obscene language against racial groups they dislike. I am merely pointing out the double standards.

[George S.]

all minorities in macedonia have never had it so good.The albanians are by no means an exception.THey enjoy not only citizenship rights but priveleges in addition.It makes a mockery in a democracy for the albanians to receive them with so many rights and priveleges..

[Risto the Great]

Far too many people have told me that ethnic Albanians in Macedonia (in Governmental jobs) are typically more efficient than Macedonians. They are more inclined to work strictly in accordance with legislation when it comes to fulfilling the tasks of their jobs and they seem to get things done in a more expedient manner.

Macedonians (particularly Government employees with strong Jesus complexes) prefer to bypass anything resembling responsibility on a daily basis.

So when I hear about Macedonians complaining about ethnic Albanians, I am loathe to accept generalisations about them or us. What is abundantly clear is that nothing has worked to date.

There was a time when Macedonians were grateful for the help that the poorest of poor Albanians gave to them when they fled from Greek atrocities in Macedonia.

I'm tired of falling into the trap that all Albanians are bad. My experience with Macedonians is that some are dim-witted and evil and useless. But I am not prepared to believe all are. I am sure the same applies to Albanians.

Macedonia has a unique position in the Balkans and can use its ethnic Albanian minority to its advantage. But the mentality needs to change. Having said that, the Macedonian language is the key to harmonising the people of Macedonia and must be part of the solution.

[George S.]

There needs to be mutua;l respect and harmony.Both sides must work together for the common good until that is cleared then that will be a thorn in both sides.I think the greatest assets of macedonians is that they can be tolerant of others.The message must go through that the albanians need to grow within macedonian confines but the albanians must be willing to accept macedonian sovereignity.You only need to see the other macedonianethnicities are happy and are in harmony.Risto you raise some many wise points they ring true.Macedonians need to harnessalbanian abilities and they are harnessed in the govt domains.When you think about it we aren't their enemy at all we need to be tuned to their level they need to be tuned to ours the two can co exist together.

[Gocka]

Spot on.

I think the problem is that most people in the Diaspora, have never been in Macedonia long enough to ever really get a feeling about what Albanians in ROM are like. Having lived there I can tell you for sure that there are great ones and disgusting ones, but the ratio is no different than for Macedonians. There are plenty of hard working peaceful Albanians, but unfortunately like anywhere else, the most radical ones are the most vocal so your perception gets easily skewed unless you are around them on a daily basis. You are more likely to get screwed by a Macedonian in ROM than an Albanian.

The other problem is that in ROM Albanians and Macedonians have lived generally segregated lives in segregated communities. It becomes very easy for both sides to fear monger about each other because neither community has enough contact to decide for themselves, so they rely on group think rather than personal experience. If you look at places where Macedonians and Albanians live together like in villages around Struga, you would be shocked at how well they get on with each other. There are villages where every house is a toss up between one or the other, there is no Albanians half and Macedonian half. Both communities respect each others religions and holidays, both try to understand each others languages. They live in real harmony. Then you have the Albanians in Tetovo and Debar, who are mostly new immigrants from Kosovo, who have never lived with Macedonians and still don't. They are the ones that dominate the narrative. That's not to say that even they are mostly bad, because they are not, but there is too much hate ingrained in them because of the Serbs, and because their reception in ROM is exactly welcoming.

In a nutshell, the Albanians aren't just going to go away, so you need to learn how to respect each other and live together, or you are doomed to have perpetual conflict. Like I said before, contempt breeds contempt. The more we reject them the more they push back.

There are some issues that need to be worked out between the two communities but honestly I am liking this thread less and less every time, because there is something inherently wrong with the way its presented. In the end I have come to realize that this thread has done nothing except anger many of us for all the wrong reasons, and make us slightly bigoted. The more we try to paint a picture of them being radicals, the more we create a self fulfilling prophecy and they actually become radicals.

Far too many people have told me that ethnic Albanians in Macedonia (in Governmental jobs) are typically more efficient than Macedonians. They are more inclined to work strictly in accordance with legislation when it comes to fulfilling the tasks of their jobs and they seem to get things done in a more expedient manner.

Macedonians (particularly Government employees with strong Jesus complexes) prefer to bypass anything resembling responsibility on a daily basis.

So when I hear about Macedonians complaining about ethnic Albanians, I am loathe to accept generalisations about them or us. What is abundantly clear is that nothing has worked to date.

There was a time when Macedonians were grateful for the help that the poorest of poor Albanians gave to them when they fled from Greek atrocities in Macedonia.

I'm tired of falling into the trap that all Albanians are bad. My experience with Macedonians is that some are dim-witted and evil and useless. But I am not prepared to believe all are. I am sure the same applies to Albanians.

Macedonia has a unique position in the Balkans and can use its ethnic Albanian minority to its advantage. But the mentality needs to change. Having said that, the Macedonian language is the key to harmonising the people of Macedonia and must be part of the solution.

[Niko777]

The Albanians put on a show today in Macedonian parliament:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVbezfDK-4g

[Redsun]

Gocka - The other problem is that in ROM Albanians and Macedonians have lived generally segregated lives in segregated communities.

Why is this? Why have they segregated themselves from us?

Gocka - and because their reception in ROM is exactly welcoming. (“is” as in isn’t?)

How much money is being pumped around ROM what’s the pension, how could we afford to look after these people?

Welcome them? How? Haven’t we been welcoming enough?

The majority of Australians did not want to see Islamic refuges landing on Australian shores, what happened? The Australian citizens and the Labor government had opposing views on Islamic immigrants arriving in Australia on boat? When liberals came into power no more boats, now the same view is shared by the majority of the people and the current government, do not welcome Islamic refugees into the country that arrive illegally.

Gocka - The more we reject them the more they push back.

Are we really rejecting them or are they just refusing to integrate and pushing their beliefs onto us.


That video what primitive behavior to happen within a parliament, shameful.

[Risto the Great]

The Albanians put on a show today in Macedonian parliament:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVbezfDK-4g

The girls should have gone for it as well.
Pathetic.
Do we know whether it was about the quality of the coffee or what?

[Gocka]

They didn't segregate themselves on purpose, it is a natural occurrence that happens pretty much everywhere in the world when two groups of people are very different. Mostly the segregation is in areas where newer Albanian immigrants live like in the north west, but in places like Struga where they have been there for generations, there is much more harmony and integration.

We segregate ourselves from them just as much as they do from us. Mostly because the general consensus on both sides is that the other side is evil.

I don't know what you mean by "how could we afford to look out for these people". The economic output from Albanians is probably higher than Macedonians.

The world didn't start yesterday, Albanians weren't treated very well during Yugoslav times, and they remember it.

We do reject them, the more we want them to stop being Albanian the more nationalistic they become. There are many things that they are doing wrong but we seem to focus on all the wrong things and the image we give off is that we want them to stop identifying as Albanians. In our society in ROM neither community wants to live together, this no solely and Albanian problem but Macedonians share the blame also. We as a nation have never tried to integrate the Albanians, so they never bothered either.

Finally the video above of the parliament fight is embarrassing, but they are actually fighting among themselves, DPA and DUI. Also you should take note that much larger fights have also taken place between Macedonians in parliament, so then I guess we are primitive too right?

See what happens when you generalize?

Gocka - The other problem is that in ROM Albanians and Macedonians have lived generally segregated lives in segregated communities.

Why is this? Why have they segregated themselves from us?

Gocka - and because their reception in ROM is exactly welcoming. (“is” as in isn’t?)

How much money is being pumped around ROM what’s the pension, how could we afford to look after these people?

Welcome them? How? Haven’t we been welcoming enough?

You seem to be referring to the Albanians in ROM like recent migrants, that is false, the majority of them have lived there for at least a 100 years.

The majority of Australians did not want to see Islamic refuges landing on Australian shores, what happened? The Australian citizens and the Labor government had opposing views on Islamic immigrants arriving in Australia on boat? When liberals came into power no more boats, now the same view is shared by the majority of the people and the current government, do not welcome Islamic refugees into the country that arrive illegally.

Gocka - The more we reject them the more they push back.

Are we really rejecting them or are they just refusing to integrate and pushing their beliefs onto us.


That video what primitive behavior to happen within a parliament, shameful.

[lavce pelagonski]

The shiptari had a fight in parliament. You can watch the clip here

http://kajgana.com/video-od-tepachkata-vo-sobranieto-megju-ibraimi-i-dzhaferi

[Momce Makedonce]

The shiptari had a fight in parliament. You can watch the clip here
http://kajgana.com/video-od-tepachka...imi-i-dzhaferi

Can you believe that this made Nine News in Sydney this morning.

[sydney]

The girls should have gone for it as well.
Pathetic.
Do we know whether it was about the quality of the coffee or what?

Maybe they couldn't agree on who takes control of which Macedonian town?

Ship1: "I want Dibra"
Ship2: "No! I want Dibra"
Ship1: "I said it first"
Ship2: "I saw it first”
Ship1: “I’m telling Nikola”
Ship2: “Slav lover”
Ship1: “Your mother is a Slav”
Ship2: “Take that bitch!”

[Redsun]

Gocka - They didn't segregate themselves on purpose, it is a natural occurrence that happens pretty much everywhere in the world when two groups of people are very different. Mostly the segregation is in areas where newer Albanian immigrants live like in the north west, but in places like Struga where they have been there for generations, there is much more harmony and integration.

How did they come to be in Struga? They consider themselves Albanians that live in Macedonia, and at one time they were immigrants.

Gocka - I don't know what you mean by "how could we afford to look out for these people". The economic output from Albanians is probably higher than Macedonians.

I wasn’t speaking of the present day, when they migrated into Macedonia they didn’t instantly set up shop and start trading.

These early Albanian immigrants, did not segregate themselves at all?

Didn’t these immigrants settle in open fields, weaving ropes between trees and calling these roped of sections their own land?

Gocka - The world didn't start yesterday, Albanians weren't treated very well during Yugoslav times, and they remember it.

They carry a grudge from their mistreatment in the Yugoslav days do they? What does this have to do with how they feel towards Macedonians; they were the ones shooting us. What are we to blame for?

Gocka - We do reject them, the more we want them to stop being Albanian the more nationalistic they become. There are many things that they are doing wrong but we seem to focus on all the wrong things and the image we give off is that we want them to stop identifying as Albanians. In our society in ROM neither community wants to live together, this no solely and Albanian problem but Macedonians share the blame also. We as a nation have never tried to integrate the Albanians, so they never bothered either.

They never showed the simplest forms of respect, I think reject may not be the best word to describe what happened.

Remember at first they were not citizens, they were immigrants we didn’t reject them, we had troubling accepting them because they never wanted to integrate. Have they ever genuinely wanted to be Macedonian citizens?

The rejection is theirs.


I agree with you Gocka, in the present day the more we reject them, the more nationalistic they become. In that sense, there is nothing really that can be done to help them.

It comes back to Albanianization doesn’t it?