Albanianization in Macedonia

[vicsinad]

The Albanians used the Badinter Principle to block all related legislation until Gruevski made a deal to allow them into the governing coalition and accept their key policies, which included amnesty for the terror suspects. Of course Gruevski didn't need to meet their demands, but that was a case in how it was misused.

But tell us why you believe one Albanian vote should be worth more than three Macedonian votes? To protect Albanian privilege? How exactly is this 'equal'?

Gruevski did not have to agree and the amnesty for terrorists did not have to happen. The Badinter Principle prevented related-legislation from passing, and it could have prevented amnesty had the VMRO-DPMNE not conceded and come to a deal.

It's a check to protect the minority from the majority from passing legislation that the minority thinks will harm them. However, the minority still cannot pass any legislation without a majority. Are there other ways to ensure that check? Probably, yes. But this check is not damaging to civic equality.

[Vangelovski]

Gruevski did not have to agree and the amnesty for terrorists did not have to happen. The Badinter Principle prevented related-legislation from passing, and it could have prevented amnesty had the VMRO-DPMNE not conceded and come to a deal.

It's a check to protect the minority from the majority from passing legislation that the minority thinks will harm them. However, the minority still cannot pass any legislation without a majority. Are there other ways to ensure that check? Probably, yes. But this check is not damaging to civic equality.

You're still avoiding the key question - why do you think one Albanian vote being worth more than three Macedonian votes is "equal"?

If you can't provide a sensible answer, I'm afraid you're going on a holiday. I will not tolerate racism in any form on this forum, particularly by Macedonians who are trying to turn reality inside out and deny the blatantly obvious.

[vicsinad]

You're still avoiding the key question - why do you think one Albanian vote being worth more than three Macedonian votes is "equal"?

If you can't provide a sensible answer, I'm afraid you're going on a holiday. I will not tolerate racism in any form on this forum, particularly by Macedonians who are trying to turn reality inside out and deny the blatantly obvious.

I answered your question.

[Vangelovski]

I answered your question.

No you haven't, all you've done is squirm around with some BS about minorities protecting their special privileges as if that is a legitimate cause in and of itself. You haven't even been able to identify which of these supposed "rights" (as you call them) are even legitimate rights, rather you've taken the position that anything the Albanians ask for must be acceptable and therefore the Badinter Principle necessary to protect their demands.

I'm tired of you promoting Serbian culture and defending the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement every time you turn up. You've got seven days to look at yourself in the mirror and ask what in F's name your doing before you come back.

[Epirot]

Are Albania, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria any different? All of Macedonia's neighbouring states have multiple ethnicities. And each of them have a majority ethnicity that regards their state as a national homeland in which their language and culture prevail above the rest. If you're looking for something more, then look to Albania, not Macedonia.

I'd never say that Albania is ethnically homogeneous as long as the national minorities are recognized in constitutional basis. It appears that my point was not taken properly. If I am not mistaken, the constitution of 1971 postulated Macedonia as the homeland of both Macedonians, Albanians and Turks, by declaring them as equal. Unfortunately, I am not able to find out any English version of that constitution as to elaborate in depth my point. If we are to compare the constitution of 1991, we realize that it has fundamentally changed by not taking in account the multi-ethnic being of Macedonia.

That is because the Macedonian people have a good nature. Those calls fell on deaf ears anyway.

As long as the national revival of both Albanians & Macedonians was not relied on expansionist ideas, the cooperation was to be expected. The patriots of both sides soon understood they were surrounded by aggressive nationalism (Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek ones). Many Albanian patriots were actively engaged into Macedonian uprisings. Being so, many members of Albanian committee in London supported the idea of an independent Macedonia. Even the Aubrey Herbert and Moses Gaster did their best to advocate an independent Macedonian state.

Moses Gaster subsequently launched a new group called the London Macedonian Committee.

Albania's Greatest Friend: Aubrey Herbert and the Making of Modern Albania ...
By Aubrey Herbert

1902

Appeal of the "National Macedonian-Albanian League" Brother Macedonians! Brother Albanians! ...There is no need that the Bulgarians, the Greeks or others amend our homeland... Executive Committee British Museum (British Library), London, 1902

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Co...Documents.html

While I was child, I had a keen interest to read the books of Sterjo Spasse, a prominent Albanian writer from the Prespa region (in Albanian side). He had evoked many events from XIX'th century, especially those from Albanian guerilla fighters in southern Albania. They cooperated narrowly with Macedonian patriots in the uprisings against Ottomans. Korcha and Ohrid were the places where many important meetings were held.

In following I shall translate some fragments from an article which I found in Albanian:

Todor Simovski, i cili në punimin e tij: “Për pjesëmarrjen e kombësive në Kryengritjen e Ilindenit”, shkruan:

“…përpjekjet e para për një shtet maqedonas filluan aty kah fundi i shekullit XIX, nën ndikimin e lëvizjeve çlirimtare të popujve fqinj, të cilët tentonin të çlirohen nga sundimi shekullor osman. Kështu, nën ndikimin e këtyre lëvizjeve, edhe tek sllavo-maqedonasit u formua organizata “VMRO”, nën ndikimin e së cilës, në vitin 1903, shpërtheu Kryengritja e Ilindenit. Kryengritja kryesisht kishte karakter antiosman. Prandaj, asaj iu bashkangjitën dhe e ndihmuan edhe Shqiptarët. Pa ndihmën e Shqiptarëve ajo vështirë se do të kishte sukses, kur dihet se ajo u zhvillua kryesisht në viset e banuara më tepër me Shqiptarë”.

Më tej ai vazhdon: “Shqiptarët kishin merita të veçanta për Komitetin dhe kryengritjen e Ilindenit, që ishin bartës të sigurtë dhe të mirë të armëve, barutit dhe materialit tjetër ushtarak” .

Translation:

Todor Simovski in his article: 'About the participation of nationalities in Ilinden uprising" stated:

The first efforts for a Macedonian state commenced around the last decades of XIXth century, under the influence of national movements of neighboring peoples, who struggled to liberate themselves from Ottoman yoke. Under the influence of those movements, it was formed the organization of VMRO, who stirred up the revolt of Ilinden at 1903. The revolt had largely an anti-Ottoman stance. That's why many Albanians joined it. Without the help of Albanians, it would not have any success, considering that this uprising took place in regions inhabited rather by Albanians.

Then he adds: Albanians had distinguished merits about the committee of Ilinden. They carried arms along with other military ammunition.

Originally posted by SoM

Many of your 'fighting' ancestors in Macedonia during the same period were too busy helping the Ottomans rape and pillage.

The state of things was much more complicated than it appears in first sight or from today perspective. Some Albanians took the side of Ottomans rather to escape from poverty. Yet those Albanians were insignificant comparing to the rest who struggled against Ottomans. Also the situation in Macedonia was to be deteriorated when Serbian chetniks, Bulgarian agents as well as Greek andarts entered in Macedonia. The local population (it does not matters whether it was Macedonian, Albanian, Vlach or Turk) suffered greatly from these incursions. It would be natural to them to side with Ottomans against these agents.

[George S.]

Epirot you guys can't get behind square one in your discussions you are confusing priveleges with rights.You talk of a homeland for macedonians as being also the homeland of different ethnicities.That 's where the argument has derailed you can't accept the fact that
minorities can be coexisting as minorities be they any sort of ethnicity but the dominant one is still macedonian.But from Ohrid framework agreement comes absurdities like priveleges to second language & other absurdities.Have you seen the thread earlier on the albanians are bipassing learning macedonian alltogether & learning only about albanian.Also in the books nothing is taught about macedonia only about a greater albania.This is thanks to the hrid framework agreement.Epirot here's where i say good riddance to a maggot & cockroach who doesn't know what he is talking about.What is albanians giving in return to macedonia for ""cooperating"" by getting all these priveleges absolutely nothing!.You still hate & show no respect for us macedonians.Keep it like that so that we'll know who we are fighting.

[Niko777]

Today, Gostivar's city administration announced it will implement plans to rename all of its 80 streets and boulevards after UCK fighters.

[Risto the Great]

Today, Gostivar's city administration announced it will implement plans to rename all of its 80 streets and boulevards after UCK fighters.

There should not even be local government in Macedonia.

[George S.]

Macedonia has 84 municipalities.by way of comparison australia has only 28 municipalities.

[chentovist]

Macedonia has 84 municipalities.by way of comparison australia has only 28 municipalities.

Acutally Australia has about 560 local councils. Municipalities are just one form of local council..others include Shires, Towns, Cities....

[George S.]

Macedonia still has a lot compared to the landsize.When they were formed the coments were that they are too much for the small size country.Albanian s are using local municipalities to their sdvantage maybe they should do away with them.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I'd never say that Albania is ethnically homogeneous as long as the national minorities are recognized in constitutional basis.

But it is still the national home of the Albanians, where their culture and language are nurtuted and considered prevalent. Are you implying that Macedonians don't deserve to have the same in their national home?

It appears that my point was not taken properly. If I am not mistaken, the constitution of 1971 postulated Macedonia as the homeland of both Macedonians, Albanians and Turks, by declaring them as equal.

It is the home of all of its citizens. But it is also the national home of Macedonians. The national home of Albanians is Albania. The national home of Turks is Turkey. Do you understand that?

If we are to compare the constitution of 1991, we realize that it has fundamentally changed by not taking in account the multi-ethnic being of Macedonia.

Rubbish. The other ethnicities are regarded as equal citizens, and the Albanians, Turks, Vlachs and Roma are even mentioned by name. Here is what was written in 1991:

Taking as starting points the historical, cultural, spiritual and statehood heritage of the Macedonian people and their struggle over centuries for national and social freedom as well as the creation of their own state, and particularly the traditions of statehood and legality of the Krushevo Republic and the historic decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia, together with the constitutional and legal continuity of the Macedonian state as a sovereign republic within Federal Yugoslavia and freely manifested will of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia in the referendum of 8 Sep 1991, as well as the historical fact that Macedonia is established as a national state of the Macedonian people, in which full equality as citizens and permanent co-existence with the Macedonian people is provided for Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Romanics and other nationalities living in the Republic of Macedonia...........the provision of peace and a common home for the Macedonian people with the nationalities living in the Republic of Macedonia......

It can even be argued that the above was too much if we compare to our neighbours. Does the Albanian constitution mention its minorities by name? Does the Serbian constitution, or Greek constitution, or Bulgarian constitution? Does the amended and watered-down version (cited below) read any better for Albanians, aside from entirely omitting the obvious fact that Macedonia is the national home of the Macedonian people?

The citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, the Macedonian people, as well as citizens living within its borders who are part of the Albanian people, the Turkish people, the Vlach people, the Serbian people, the Romany people, the Bosniak people and others taking responsibility for the present and future of their fatherland, aware of and grateful to their predecessors for their sacrifice and dedication in their endeavours and struggle to create an independent and sovereign state of Macedonia, and responsible to future generations to preserve and develop everything that is valuable from the rich cultural inheritance and coexistence within Macedonia, equal in rights and obligations towards the common good - the Republic of Macedonia - in accordance with the tradition of the Krushevo Republic and the decisions of the Antifascist People’s Liberation Assembly of Macedonia, and the Referendum of September 8, 1991, have decided to establish the Republic of Macedonia as an independent, sovereign state, with the intention of establishing and consolidating the rule of law, guaranteeing human rights and civil liberties, providing peace and coexistence, social justice, economic well-being and prosperity in the life of the individual and the community, and, in this regard, through their representatives in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia, elected in free and democratic elections, adopt...........

We even have reference to the sacrifice and dedication of people who struggled to create an independent and sovereign state of Macedonia. The only other people (aside from Macedonians) in Macedonia that really provided a degree of help were the Vlachs. How many Albanians, Turks, Serbs or Bosniaks struggled for such a cause?

The patriots of both sides soon understood they were surrounded by aggressive nationalism (Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek ones).

Macedonians were also surrounded by aggressive Albanians, some being Ottoman lackeys, others being chauvinistic nationalists.

Even the Aubrey Herbert and Moses Gaster did their best to advocate an independent Macedonian state.

Neither Herbert or Gaster were Albanians.

Appeal of the "National Macedonian-Albanian League" Brother Macedonians! Brother Albanians! ...There is no need that the Bulgarians, the Greeks or others amend our homeland... Executive Committee British Museum (British Library), London, 1902

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Co...Documents.html

That looks more like Macedonians trying to appeal to Albanians rather than the other way around, just like in the Ilinden Uprising. Again I will ask, can you name any ethnic Albanians that willingly fought for an independent Macedonian state?

Some Albanians took the side of Ottomans rather to escape from poverty. Yet those Albanians were insignificant comparing to the rest who struggled against Ottomans.

You're either deliberty downplaying the significance or being naive. It is well known that Albanians swelled the ranks of the Bashibozuk irregulars in the Balkans. The few Albanians who may have supported a Macedonian state are invisible compared to those Ottoman lackeys.

[George S.]

Epirot can i go to albania & demand a secession of mala prespa for the greater Macedonia??Can i do the very things you guys are doing in macedonia.Can i argue that albania is not the homeland of albanians.Can i just create my own artificial country within a country.If i want can my language be no2 like yours & i don't have to speak albanian.Also i want my own university to teach macedonian.I want my own passports, my own army ,my own police etcWhat does that tell you i'm taking over your country.

[The LION will ROAR]

No comments needed

[Epirot]

Epirot can i go to albania & demand a secession of mala prespa for the greater Macedonia??Can i do the very things you guys are doing in macedonia.Can i argue that albania is not the homeland of albanians.Can i just create my own artificial country within a country.If i want can my language be no2 like yours & i don't have to speak albanian.Also i want my own university to teach macedonian.I want my own passports, my own army ,my own police etcWhat does that tell you i'm taking over your country.

Follow my answer ( #406) which I made a long time ago:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=112494#post112494

The exchange of territories was a proposal by a Macedonian academic!