Albanianization in Macedonia

[vicsinad]

To be entirely accurate, this ensures Macedonia will never be the homeland for Macedonians. Lending support or justification to anything like this can only be construed as anti-Macedonian.

I could happily ignore Epirot & co. for hours but to have a Macedonian painting this in a comfortable hue is disgusting.

Macedonia is the homeland for the people that live there -- their ethnic, cultural, or religious background should not matter. That viewpoint is not anti-Macedonian in anyway.

[vicsinad]

When you provide the example of that 'one man' who can veto what 100 have agreed to in the US, it is completely irrelevant and as usual, completely ill-informed. Firstly, that 'one man' power is not based on ethnic background. Secondly, that 'one man' is elected by the same people who elected the 100. Thirdly, that 'one man's veto can be overridden by the Congress. That makes it an effective 'check and balance'. This has absolutely no bearing on the Macedonian case, where the ethnically based Albanian veto is final and way out of proportion to their actual numbers.

Accounting for that the US veto can be overridden, the US President can veto a bill that between 51 and 66 elected Senators voted for, the Senate cannot override that veto without 2/3's of the Senate. Yes, this is a check-and-balance on the powers between two branches (but it still makes one man's minority voice override the 66 majority members' voices), but the Baditner principle is really a check of the minority on the majority (in the Macedonian case, the minority ethnic group having a check on the majority ethnic group).

[Vangelovski]

Macedonia is the homeland for the people that live there -- their ethnic, cultural, or religious background should not matter. That viewpoint is not anti-Macedonian in anyway.

That depends on your definition of 'homeland'. At the individual level, I would agree that all citizens should consider Macedonia as their 'homeland', but to suggest that Macedonia is a 'homeland' to an ethnic group, such as the Albanian nation, is ludicrous.

[Vangelovski]

Accounting for that the US veto can be overridden, the US President can veto a bill that between 51 and 66 elected Senators voted for, the Senate cannot override that veto without 2/3's of the Senate. Yes, this is a check-and-balance on the powers between two branches (but it still makes one man's minority voice override the 66 majority members' voices), but the Baditner principle is really a check of the minority on the majority (in the Macedonian case, the minority ethnic group having a check on the majority ethnic group).

vicsinad, my patience has grown very thin with you. You're failing to make any sense (with factual inaccuracies plaguing your post) and in particular, to articulate what the US system (on which you were unable to address my points) has to do with Macedonia's ethnically based veto power.

I'm going to give you the same advice as I gave to Epirot, but you should take it more stringently seeing as your Macedonian. This is a very important topic, don't pollute it with irrelevant and inaccurate rubbish. If you are unable to contribute from an informed position, don't contribute at all.

[vicsinad]

but to suggest that Macedonia is a 'homeland' to an ethnic group, such as the Albanian nation, is ludicrous.

I absolutely agree.

[Vangelovski]

I absolutely agree.

I forgot to add that it can only be the 'homeland', in a collective sense, to the Macedonian nation. I thought that was implied, but reading my post again I realise that may not be the case.

[vicsinad]

vicsinad, my patience has grown very thin with you. You're failing to make any sense (with factual inaccuracies plaguing your post) and in particular, to articulate what the US system (on which you were unable to address my points) has to do with Macedonia's ethnically based veto power.

I'm going to give you the same advice as I gave to Epirot, but you should take it more stringently seeing as your Macedonian. This is a very important topic, don't pollute it with irrelevant and inaccurate rubbish. If you are unable to contribute from an informed position, don't contribute at all.

What this means for me and all other readers/posters: if you don't hold Vangelovski's views, don't post.

[Risto the Great]

Macedonia is the homeland for the people that live there -- their ethnic, cultural, or religious background should not matter. That viewpoint is not anti-Macedonian in anyway.

Yeah, you are right. It is a place they can all point at on a map. But when they want to point at a place that nurtures the national, cultural and ethnic spirit of Macedonians, they will have to point somewhere else. That is why your sentiments are anti-Macedonian.

What this means for me and all other readers/posters: if you don't hold Vangelovski's views, don't post.

It actually means Macedonians are typically the worst enemy of Macedonians. Acceptance of the Ohrid Agreement and its ramifications should place you in a minority amongst Macedonians. Even UMD rejected it. Are you that SDSM?

[vicsinad]

It actually means Macedonians are typically the worst enemy of Macedonians. Acceptance of the Ohrid Agreement and its ramifications should place you in a minority amongst Macedonians. Even UMD rejected it. Are you that SDSM?

There's that SDSM stuff again... at least now there's recognition that I'm Macedonian and not Serbian

Anyway, I simply think that Vangelovski was over-exaggerating the ramifications of that particular section of the OFA. Because I suggest that one "principle" may not be as damaging, irrational and unjust as some have pointed it out to be does not suggest anything about any of my other views on any other part of the OFA.

[Vangelovski]

What this means for me and all other readers/posters: if you don't hold Vangelovski's views, don't post.

No, it means get a basic grasp of the issues for which you want to debate, otherwise you're wasting time, space and promoting anti-Macedonian agenda's.

[Vangelovski]

Anyway, I simply think that Vangelovski was over-exaggerating the ramifications of that particular section of the OFA. Because I suggest that one "principle" may not be as damaging, irrational and unjust as some have pointed it out to be does not suggest anything about any of my other views on any other part of the OFA.

The ramifications are exactly as I have stated them. I even provided a simple example of how DUI has used the Badinter Principle for their own political aspirations and Albanian nationalist interests. One of the deals they made with Gruevski, by using the Badinter Principle to essentially blackmail him (though that does not excuse him), was the amnesty for Albanian terror suspects and wanted war criminals. Yet another point you are unable to address.

[Soldier of Macedon]

If this is not in place, then it is possible that the Macedonian majority, through the legislative process, could easily revoke any protection for Albanian cultural/language rights that the state has, especially if hardline-nationalist Macedonians come into office.

Does that mean you agree with the FA? Did ethnic Albanians not have all necessary minority rights which protected their culture and language prior to 2001?

By the way, Macedonia has always been multi-ethnic.

Are Albania, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria any different? All of Macedonia's neighbouring states have multiple ethnicities. And each of them have a majority ethnicity that regards their state as a national homeland in which their language and culture prevail above the rest. If you're looking for something more, then look to Albania, not Macedonia.

Macedonian patriots who struggled against Ottomans have always called for general mobilization of both Macedonians, Albanians and local Turks because Macedonia at that time were profoundly multi-ethnic. Even the Krushevo short lived Republic recognized Albanians as equal with Macedonians.

That is because the Macedonian people have a good nature. Those calls fell on deaf ears anyway. Many of your 'fighting' ancestors in Macedonia during the same period were too busy helping the Ottomans rape and pillage. Can you name any ethnic Albanians that willingly fought for an independent Macedonian state?

[George S.]

Originally Posted by Epirot
By the way, Macedonia has always been multi-ethnic.Yes but minorities weren't after secession rights.The last thing holding the albanians was a a lack of macedonian language.Now they do not need to learn it at all that's how much they respect of macedonian language/culture/etc.
Can anyonename me a democracy where this sort of thing is happening & minorities do not learn the majorities language.Why not ask to change the name from macedonia to albania.Albanians in amacedonia want the absurd & unthinkable.The way things are going anything is possible.

[vicsinad]

The ramifications are exactly as I have stated them. I even provided a simple example of how DUI has used the Badinter Principle for their own political aspirations and Albanian nationalist interests. One of the deals they made with Gruevski, by using the Badinter Principle to essentially blackmail him (though that does not excuse him), was the amnesty for Albanian terror suspects and wanted war criminals. Yet another point you are unable to address.

First, the Badinter Principle did not force Gruevski to make a deal concerning amnesty for terrorists. They still needed the majority votes. When you're concerned more about maintaining power than serving the people, dirty politics is the name of the game and it doesn't matter how perfect your governing system is, it doesn't matter whether the Badinter Principle is in place or not.

Second, because certain Albanians and a political party are abusing the Badinter Principle (with regards to its implementation on local levels), it does not mean the Badinter Principle has created civic inequality. If anything, what's creating inequality is the corruption among the political parties and their quest to use the "ethnic card" to maintain divisions among the people to further their own agendas. For example, amnesty for terrorists was not so much about advancing the Albanian cause as it was about one man protecting (or returning a favor to) a handful of other men who helped him and his party get to power.

[Vangelovski]

First, the Badinter Principle did not force Gruevski to make a deal concerning amnesty for terrorists. They still needed the majority votes. When you're concerned more about maintaining power than serving the people, dirty politics is the name of the game and it doesn't matter how perfect your governing system is, it doesn't matter whether the Badinter Principle is in place or not.

Second, because certain Albanians and a political party are abusing the Badinter Principle (with regards to its implementation on local levels), it does not mean the Badinter Principle has created civic inequality. If anything, what's creating inequality is the corruption among the political parties and their quest to use the "ethnic card" to maintain divisions among the people to further their own agendas. For example, amnesty for terrorists was not so much about advancing the Albanian cause as it was about one man protecting (or returning a favor to) a handful of other men who helped him and his party get to power.

vicsinad, you need to read up on your recent history. The Albanians used the Badinter Principle to block all related legislation until Gruevski made a deal to allow them into the governing coalition and accept their key policies, which included amnesty for the terror suspects. Of course Gruevski didn't need to meet their demands, but that was a case in how it was misused.

But tell us why you believe one Albanian vote should be worth more than three Macedonian votes? To protect Albanian privilege? How exactly is this 'equal'?