Albanianization in Macedonia

[Bratot]

It could work for me as well Risto in case we define some measure strategy to see how effective your "tough love" would be in practice.

Because so far I could identify only a greater gap over a nonsensical contest, without the minimum common sense and a good will to move on.

And I have witnessed the same just too many times so far without any real value except of a great opportunity being wasted.

Pozdrav,
M

[Vangelovski]

It could work for me as well Risto in case we define some measure strategy to see how effective your "tough love" would be in practice.

Because so far I could identify only a greater gap over a nonsensical contest, without the minimum common sense and a good will to move on.

And I have witnessed the same just too many times so far without any real value except of a great opportunity being wasted.

Pozdrav,
M

Bratot,

You didn't answer my question - now that you acknowledge the existence of a 'slave mentality', how would you describe it?

[Soldier of Macedon]

We do have the millitary capability to defend our country but we do not have the economic strength and\or the international support to engage in such an adventure.

Can you explain to me the consequences of Macedonians re-asserting Macedonian authority in Macedonia? Will we get bombed? Boycotted? Invaded? What is it exactly that we are supposed to be 'scared' of?

...a conclusion based discussion should be led.......

I agree completely. How closer are you to that goal since you joined? How close have you been to that goal before you joined?

what the diaspora can do to help its own

For the Diaspora to help its own, its own must first be willing to help itself.

Your question is out of order but I would like to think that it is made out of ignorance on the subject.

What? Why is my question out of order? I asked you a question, you'd be out of order not to answer it adequately. Against who's propaganda do you claim to be?

[Vangelovski]

We do have the millitary capability to defend our country but we do not have the economic strength and\or the international support to engage in such an adventure. What is most important is that the majority lacks the morale neccessary to engage in another conflict due to the negative experiences of 2001.
Any option to curtail the shiptar onslaught will lead to an armed conflict since they do have international support and this is not counting our neighbouring states.

"Prof. D-re", it is becoming more and more apparent what your intentions are on this forum and the "intellectual" stream that you sputtered from.

Although I agree with a good deal of your analysis of the situation in Macedonia (it too has its issues), your conclusions and recommended course of action (or lack thereof) are disconnected from both the analysis you provide, the evidence at hand and historical experience.

Your view that 'waiting for better times' is a well known position and prominent within certain circles throughout history Macedonian and otherwise, namely, the supporters of the status quo. In most cases (that I can think of) these same circles eventually violently resisted the relevant liberation movement.

[Risto the Great]

Bratot, we both clearly love Macedonia. But you and I are very apart on matters of basic ideology. As soon as I see something inconsistent with fulfilling the national agenda (which must embrace the Macedonian Cause) I drop it like a hot potato. You choose to ignore it for some "greater benefit" that is yet to be revealed.

Anyway, about that Albanianisation thing going on in Macedonia.
What should Macedonians do to fix the problem?

[fyrOM]

Guess what!
"Fat" is considered nicer than "obese".

But, whichever way we call it, there are still fat people around ... everywhere.

I can't help myself, I am an advocate of tough love and I see achievers all day who benefit from it.

Gee RTG learn to spell…the good fat is Phat. Its cause it give you a phat and yes I agree there are a lot of phat people around but I don’t agree with tough love…I’m not into anything kinky.

On a serious note I think people who want to do something feel alone and that is disempowering but what disappoints me is those who can ie the government are not even with their huge public popularity doing anything or what they are doing only exasperates the situation.

Well like it or not the signs are saying they will have to do something late next year or certainly the following…and no not because of 2012 rubbish. The thing is the build up going on so far and continuing will make it just that much harder later. I don’t have the power to change the government and it does feel like nothing I can do.

[Vangelovski]

OziMak,

Even though we have clashed in the past, I'd like to say that I am impressed - you seem to be undergoing your own moral revolution (and that is what a moral revolution is - it is personal and individual, a change in your views). I've seen much progress in the past few months - keep it going.

P.S. This is a compliment and not sarcasm (I know people confuse my tone).

[Bratot]

Bratot, we both clearly love Macedonia. But you and I are very apart on matters of basic ideology.

Please, explain that basic ideology and where we are apart in our stances.

As soon as I see something inconsistent with fulfilling the national agenda (which must embrace the Macedonian Cause) I drop it like a hot potato.

I have no trouble really with your 'hot potatos' but your selfwilled arbitrary on what is and how to fulfill OUR national agenda.

You choose to ignore it for some "greater benefit" that is yet to be revealed.

Lets not make some enigmatic conclussions.

I have said clearly and loudly enough what I aim to achieve.
I would rather say it is same thing for both of us but we prefer different roads.

Anyway, about that Albanianisation thing going on in Macedonia.
What should Macedonians do to fix the problem?

Honestly I haven't seen any peaceful settlment of simmilar situations, and if the situation remain like this the both sides will suffer on a long term.

Lets say they get everything they want, i.e. Macedonia isn't a national state of the Macedonians, probably with a changed name, Macedonian identity is degraded into a regional and no official status, Albanians achieve the Great Albania with taking whole Macedonia where we become their minority or more precisely their problem.
And we will finally restart everything over again and go guerrila, fight, fight, fight until some more powerful factor sees us as new opportunity to destabilize the Balkans and play politics and we undertake the role from the Albanians today.

Another hypotesis says, we start the war now. The sooner the better, something that historically costed us a lot and something that Delchev also warned us about, but nobody gave a shit or intentionally ignored him. http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/sho...0&postcount=37

It is to be noted that I don't say "Wait for better times" but I do say "Create the better times" and what we should really consider of first, is to prepare ourself, instead of wasting time as if we are rising up revolution tomorrow.

In that context I refuse to speak openly on a public forum on how practically to fix the problem with the Albanians (which would be very immature), but as I offered many times on this forum, about many other things, to be discussed internally and if accepted to be prepared for practical realisation.

And I do except honest invitation to continue with this conversation somewhere less expossed to all structures, instead of the inappreciation and teasing.

[Risto the Great]

Thanks Bratot.
I have seen nothing good come from all of the greatest secret agendas in Macedonia. I am all for honest and transparent campaigns and see no reason why they cannot be fleshed out publicly. If our greatest enemy were Albanians or Greeks etc, I would agree with you. But when it is Macedonians themselves, a different approach is required.

[Risto the Great]

Please, explain that basic ideology and where we are apart in our stances.

You disagree with the current flag and other matters stemming from the interim accord but fail to support the ideology that rejects the consequences of the interim accord.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

You didn't answer my question - now that you acknowledge the existence of a 'slave mentality', how would you describe it?

Probably as a feeling that we don't have the power to significantly alter our own circumstances.

The general skepsis that got roots after everything we testified.

How would you describe it?

[Vangelovski]

Thanks Bratot.
I have seen nothing good come from all of the greatest secret agendas in Macedonia. I am all for honest and transparent campaigns and see no reason why they cannot be fleshed out publicly. If our greatest enemy were Albanians or Greeks etc, I would agree with you. But when it is Macedonians themselves, a different approach is required.

Agreed. Any campaign for Macedonian freedom should be morally justifiable. The cause is morally justifiable and the means with which to achieve it are as well. There is absolutely no need for secrecy and I too am highly suspect of organisations and individuals who claim the need for secrecy surrounding their policies and actions.

[Vangelovski]

Probably as a feeling that we don't have the power to significantly alter our own circumstances.

The general skepsis that got roots after everything we testified.

How would you describe it?

That's not what I mean't - I mean't how would you refer to it? I refer to it as the SLAVE MENTALITY.

Btw, your definition is seriously lacking. Its not just a feeling that we don't have the power to alter our circumstances, but an irrational belief that we SHOULD NOT be free to determine our own affairs and that the decision is better made by others who know best for us.

[Bratot]

Thanks Bratot.
I have seen nothing good come from all of the greatest secret agendas in Macedonia. I am all for honest and transparent campaigns and see no reason why they cannot be fleshed out publicly. If our greatest enemy were Albanians or Greeks etc, I would agree with you. But when it is Macedonians themselves, a different approach is required.

Well, I perfectly know why such ideas shoudln't be said publically. But some people just love the demagoguery without practical implementation of their thoughts.

You disagree with the current flag and other matters stemming from the interim accord but fail to support the ideology that rejects the consequences of the interim accord.

First of all I'm not sure if we have the same understanding on what defines an 'ideology', but I do think what you stand for is monocracy of opinion(your).

I see no issues with the ideology, but rather in the depth of our reasoning.

You prefer to over simplify everything and I chose to be more carreful of...

[Vangelovski]

Well, I perfectly know why such ideas shoudln't be said publically. But some people just love the demagoguery without practical implementation of their thoughts.



First of all I'm not sure if we have the same understanding on what defines an 'ideology', but I do think what you stand for is monocracy of opinion(your).

I see no issues with the ideology, but rather in the depth of our reasoning.

You prefer to over simplify everything and I chose to be more carreful of...

Bratot,

You have demonstrated in your posts that we either CANNOT or SHOULD NOT determine our own affairs (at least not all of them). That is the key ideological difference between yourself and others such as RtG, SoM, Indigen, Aleksandrov and myself.

Further, this belief that we cannot or should not determine our own affairs is a result of YOUR slave mentality which only YOU can resolve within your own heart and mind.