Albanianization in Macedonia

[Soldier of Macedon]

I would say in Labunista a seperate "Torbesh" identity is on the rise if anything, ie. an ethnic identity which is different from Macedonian.

What evidence is there of that?

The Macedonian government is helpless to stop them unless it wants to find itself in a very nasty and unpredictable position which it can not afford right now.

And when can it afford to do it?

Let's not make the understanding of Macedonian society a pissing contest since I do live Macedonia's democracy everyday and am more apt to give better analysis of our situation.

You're not the only one who lives in Macedonia, so I agree, let's not make this a pissing contest. I have read through this thread but am still a little unsure about what it is exactly that you're trying point out. Against who's propaganda do you claim to be?

[julie]

This sign has appeared almost everywhere in Tetovo - buildings, schools, and stadiums. This is treason.

Wake up RoM
This is high treason!!!!!!!!

[protivpropaganda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protivpropaganda
The Macedonian government is helpless to stop them unless it wants to find itself in a very nasty and unpredictable position which it can not afford right now.

And when can it afford to do it?

Your guess is as good as mine, as of yet.
We do have the millitary capability to defend our country but we do not have the economic strength and\or the international support to engage in such an adventure. What is most important is that the majority lacks the morale neccessary to engage in another conflict due to the negative experiences of 2001.
Any option to curtail the shiptar onslaught will lead to an armed conflict since they do have international support and this is not counting our neighbouring states.

You're not the only one who lives in Macedonia, so I agree, let's not make this a pissing contest. I have read through this thread but am still a little unsure about what it is exactly that you're trying point out.

It is obvious that you did not read with an open mind. If you did so then you would have been sure.
Anyway, since you asked, I was trying to point out, before I was attacked, that a conclusion based discussion should be led instead of just pointing out the instances of Macedonia's weaknesses since all the already led form of discussion leads to is apathy and helplesness.
I would have been most happy to read posts of quarreling and bickering but on how the problem shoud be confronted and\or solved in an organised way or to put it more precisely, what the diaspora can do to help its own.

Against who's propaganda do you claim to be?

Your question is out of order but I would like to think that it is made out of ignorance on the subject.
Just reading several sites on propaganda doesn't make one a specialist of the field.

Protiv propaganda is correctly translated as against propaganda and it is an activity to educate people how to defend themselves from it. Its aim is to enpower people, my people, the Macedonians. Also, I am here to learn about the Diaspora, its strengths and how they can be used beneficially for all of us.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

I am here to learn about the Diaspora, its strengths and how they can be used beneficially for all of us.

Where do you live? Why did you use the word "they" more then one Macedonian diaspora? Are you a member of any organization and if so which ones? Normally, people involved know what you're asking; however, that may not be the case here.

I think some organizations need to work on their on-going weaknesses that hold other's back?

[protivpropaganda]

Where do you live? Why did you use the word "they" more then one Macedonian diaspora? Are you a member of any organization and if so which ones? Normally, people involved know what you're asking; however, that may not be the case here.

I live in Skopje.

The word "they" applies to the word in plural "strengths", not to a multitude of Diaspora. Although there seems to be a difference in behaviour between Macedonian Diaspora of Europe, USA, Canada and Australia.

I'm not a member of any organisation for now although I do hope with time to create, help create or even join one to work on countering the consequences of the social engineering of the past and the present and to stop future such activities.

Also, something you didn't ask but I think is relevant for further discussion. I am former Diaspora from the USA. Gary, Indiana to be more precise. St. Peter and Paul Macedonian Church municipality to be exact. Returned to Macedonia at the age of 17. I am 45 years of age today.

I think some organizations need to work on their on-going weaknesses that hold other's back?

In general I have touched on the subject in this post:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=82302&postcount=134

There are no quick fixes for our society. To this fact many organisations fail, among other things.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

I live in Skopje.

The word "they" applies to the word in plural "strengths", not to a multitude of Diaspora. Although there seems to be a difference in behaviour between Macedonian Diaspora of Europe, USA, Canada and Australia.

I'm not a member of any organisation for now although I do hope with time to create, help create or even join one to work on countering the consequences of the social engineering of the past and the present and to stop future such activities.

Also, something you didn't ask but I think is relevant for further discussion. I am former Diaspora from the USA. Gary, Indiana to be more precise. St. Peter and Paul Macedonian Church municipality to be exact. Returned to Macedonia at the age of 17. I am 45 years of age today.


In general I have touched on the subject in this post:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=82302&postcount=134

There are no quick fixes for our society. To this fact many organisations fail, among other things.

Thank you for that information

- Returned to Macedonia at the age of 17

How many years in USA and WHY did you return?

PS Younger then me but not always wiser : )

[fyrOM]

Your guess is as good as mine, as of yet.
We do have the millitary capability to defend our country but we do not have the economic strength and\or the international support to engage in such an adventure. What is most important is that the majority lacks the morale neccessary to engage in another conflict due to the negative experiences of 2001.
Any option to curtail the shiptar onslaught will lead to an armed conflict since they do have international support and this is not counting our neighbouring states.

...a conclusion based discussion should be led instead of just pointing out the instances of Macedonia's weaknesses since all the already led form of discussion leads to is apathy and helplesness.
I would have been most happy to read posts of quarreling and bickering but on how the problem shoud be confronted and\or solved in an organised way or to put it more precisely, what the diaspora can do to help its own.

Your kidding right. If you take the attitude the law applies to you to prevent you doing something but does not apply to them then you self define the rules of engagement against you…which is a weakness…which they will see as a weakness and as such a green light to pick on you…it’s a self fulfilling situation whose inevitable conclusion is complete capitulation ie you’re my bitch or armed conflict.

You say it is not the right time ie its better to avoid action which you see will lead to armed conflict so if you are avoiding armed conflict then are you embracing being someone’s bitch. Its one or the other so which is it.

Or if you are smart enough you take the third option with the armed conflict option in reserve. Seeing your such an intellectual Ill let you tell us the third option…here’s a clue I’ve already said it somewhere else.

The fact the answer is written somewhere else should suit intellectuals like you with you nose stuck in a book…if you read enough I’m sure you will find it. As a kid did you never get picked on by anyone and did you not form different responses depending on the circumstances of a given situation.

For f sake have you never hear the sayings
Imas um I razum…misli I praj
And
Snajdise.

No lets just keep waiting and let the problem grow until it really is too big then you can claim to be vindicated it was better to do nothing because the problem was just too big.

[protivpropaganda]

Thank you for that information

- Returned to Macedonia at the age of 17

How many years in USA and WHY did you return?

PS Younger then me but not always wiser : )

8 years.
Didn't have a choice. My father decided he wanted to go back after he got layed off from US Steel and I was too young to do anything about it.

Youth and wisdom are two things that non of us can possess at the same time.






@OziMak,
Is it your turn now to provoce and attack me or you are just way to ignorant in the present Macedonian affairs to know what you are talking about?
You want Macedonia to enter a conflict that she wont win and Macedonian young men to die in vain just to satisfy your warmongering frustration healing process while at the same time deeply endangering the state we finally created while you live your life safely tucked away in a prosperous first world country?

There are more then enough young Macedonian men who would willingly bare arms to wage a frontal war. There are more then enough of volunteers who will covertly provoce the shiptars to start the war by giving themselves as bait.
War is an expensive thing. Do you think that the Macedonian Diaspora will raise enough money and support for its compatriots like the shiptars did? Would Macedonian Diaspora young men sign up to come and fight in the homeland? Will the Diaspora become aggressive and start continuos violent riots in the countries they reside in in order to force support for Macedonia or will it continue to fart in the wind through the internet attacking each other?

Your kidding right. If you take the attitude the law applies to you to prevent you doing something but does not apply to them then you self define the rules of engagement against you…which is a weakness…which they will see as a weakness and as such a green light to pick on you…it’s a self fulfilling situation whose inevitable conclusion is complete capitulation ie you’re my bitch or armed conflict.

Yes, your conclusion is exact and you have every right to be mad but you see... I AM FURIOUS at the no win position we are in and many other things your knowledge can not comprehend.

That is why I am here on this forum. To see if it will be at all possible to do something about it with the help of the Macedonian Diaspora.
In the process if I have to step on somebody's toes, infuriate somebody's frustration or endanger somebody's greedy interests to do it... So be it!!!

Be patient! If it turns out that the Diaspora is only interested in quarreling amongst itself then I will go away by myself and never return.


P.S.
The shiptars aren't as strong as we are weak at the moment. This present situation isn't permanent and can be altered to our favour but not in the way you constantly propose.

[julie]

protivpropaganda

I dont agree with violence. Or war. However you have raised a couple of issues that pisses me off.
RoM attacks the diaspora, read what Bill has posted on the way they treat us here.
Am tired of RoM waiting for the diaspora to come before they do anything to help their situation.
In 2001, RoM was telling us there is no war, we were told it was war recently, the denial from RoM .
Another thing, Australians were having difficulty in getting passports in 2001, and the state of war is probably why they refused to issue males passports
A lot of the diaspora are from Egejska Makedonia who have fought and battled and were scarred, and RoM did NOTHING to help them in the civil war.
My dad is from RoM, mum from Egej and my cousins were disgusting cowards hiding under their beds and lies spread they were elsewhere by their mothers
Its a sad state of affairs when the people living in a country wait for others to come and fight
Fuck this, I am really pissed off with the apathy and servitude from RoM, and we are damned if we help and damned if we dont.
The position we are in is watching a bunch of cowards make excuses for giving up their name and identity and being blamed for it
I have been reading this thread and it disgusts me.
I am heading off to work now so I can send more money to my lazy arsed cousins in RoM, work with chronic terminal illness
Yes, I will fight in front line combat I am not afraid to die for my macedonian name you lazy bunch of cowards, am sure my cousins will hide while I bleed to death for a better life for them
I am an Austraian citizen, born here, so I would have my citizenship recoked to fight for a bunch of people that are wating for someone else to do it for them
Dont you dare attack me and my people here, we send money and offer support and all we hear is we "spit"
RoM is very uncivilised, they spit a lot, we have more integrity than to spit on our own

Why the fuck do they fly the ventilator!!!!!!Dont you dare tell me they are forced to
In Australia we protested and marched, what did RoM do?????
NOTHING> SWEET FUCK ALL
They ;ay down lying under their beds and cowered , am disgusted

Next time you attack one of us that help in whatever way we can, think.
And kick the people up the arse that need it , the people in RoM
I have lost enough family, and RoM did fuck all to help us when we were being raped, murdered and tortured, you low life cowards.
Am very angry with your comment
Heading off to work now so I can send more money for you to spit on me. For shame

[Risto the Great]

I will stay on this forum because of the true patriots and hope to get to know them better. The rest will be ignored by me and I advise others to do the same.
Identify those that always distract the topic in a thread or aggressively do not agree to anything and just ignore them. Do not get pulled into their conflict creation attempts.

P.S.
Also have in mind that a true patriot can give an analysis which isn't favourable to his nation but will not intentionally belittle or insult it.

Hi protivpropaganda, I see you have responded to other people but have chosen to ignore mine and other observations. Perhaps I did not structure my response as a question. Here goes:

If Goce Delcev called people "slaves", "thick" or "weak" today, would he be one of the people you choose to ignore?

My new question is:
What evidence do you rely on to indicate things are heading in the right direction as far as the prevalent mentality in Macedonia (of Macedonians) goes?

Feel free to continue ignoring pertinent discussions, but you must realise that if you truly feel you are here to help, you will not be around long enough to make a difference.

[julie]

Your kidding right. If you take the attitude the law applies to you to prevent you doing something but does not apply to them then you self define the rules of engagement against you…which is a weakness…which they will see as a weakness and as such a green light to pick on you…it’s a self fulfilling situation whose inevitable conclusion is complete capitulation ie you’re my bitch or armed conflict.

You say it is not the right time ie its better to avoid action which you see will lead to armed conflict so if you are avoiding armed conflict then are you embracing being someone’s bitch. Its one or the other so which is it.

Or if you are smart enough you take the third option with the armed conflict option in reserve. Seeing your such an intellectual Ill let you tell us the third option…here’s a clue I’ve already said it somewhere else.

The fact the answer is written somewhere else should suit intellectuals like you with you nose stuck in a book…if you read enough I’m sure you will find it. As a kid did you never get picked on by anyone and did you not form different responses depending on the circumstances of a given situation.

For f sake have you never hear the sayings
Imas um I razum…misli I praj
And
Snajdise.

No lets just keep waiting and let the problem grow until it really is too big then you can claim to be vindicated it was better to do nothing because the problem was just too big.

agreed on all points, in the end when RoM will be the shiptars bitches they will blame the diaspora for it

[Makedonska_Kafana]

8 years.
Didn't have a choice. My father decided he wanted to go back after he got layed off from US Steel and I was too young to do anything about it.

Youth and wisdom are two things that non of us can possess at the same time.

Sorry, to hear that about your father and not sure what has held you back from returning after all these years (future) - you work for the government? Macedonian band? You know Tome?

[Risto the Great]

"I have the solution for you fat-ass! Buy my diet program and spare us from your gigantic square butt!"

Guess what!
"Fat" is considered nicer than "obese".

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/fat-versus-obese-20101213-18v4y.html

Fat or obese? While the latter is viewed as more politically correct, an Australian study has confirmed the former is the "lesser of two evils".

A University of NSW study which looked at public perceptions surrounding these words has found that, while neither would flatter a person, obese was viewed more negatively.

"I wouldn't say that there was any acceptance of `fat', but that `obesity' was seen as less favourable and more disgusting," said the study's author, Lenny Vartanian, a lecturer at UNSW's School of Psychology.

"People saw themselves as being more like a fat person than an obese person, there was more a sense of familiarity with fat people than obese people."

Dr Vartanian's study took in the views of almost 430 undergraduate students, of a variety of body sizes, at the university.

He said the results echoed earlier studies conducted specifically among overweight people, and which asked for their views on the use of the words "fat" versus "obese".

"They don't like being called fat, but it does seem to be the lesser of two evils," Dr Vartanian said.

"They would prefer to be called fat than to be called obese.

"(So) the term `fat' in these studies does seem to be less problematic than the term `obese'."

Dr Vartanian said these findings challenged the wisdom of recent calls, from some quarters, to adopt a "tough love" approach to the problem of Western society's expanding waistline.

In July, both the UK health minister and the Victorian president of the Australian Medical Association said calling some obese people fat might be the nudge they needed to start losing weight.

Dr Vartanian said this was flawed on two levels, as not only was "shaming" known to not motivate people to make positive changes to their lifestyle, calling overweight people fat would make many feel "less bad about themselves".

He said he supported the status quo - that "obese" should continue to be used to refer tothose who meet its technical definition of having a body mass index (BMI) of 30 and above.

"If you have a BMI over a certain point then you are categorised as obese from a medical perspective, because you are at increased risk of type two diabetes and heart disease," Dr Vartanian said.

"Calling someone a fat person is like calling somebody crazy - it just doesn't have an official definition that is useful.

"It doesn't have a place in (public health) forums, and while obese might be seen more negatively and as less desirable to obese individuals themselves, at least it has an official definition."

Dr Vartanian's study also points to another troubling aspect of the community's growing rate, and so normalisation, of obesity.

"As the population gets heavier it would certainly skew people's perceptions," he said.

"There are many people who we see walking down the street with a BMI over 30 and we might not necessarily recognise them as obese."

The research is published in the Italian-based journal Eating and Weight Disorder.

Bratot, the Doctor agrees with you. Calling them a name does not motivate people to make positive changes to their lifestyle. He prefers to use an index, perhaps we should create a PFS Index (Propensity For Servitude Index) to take the heat out of this debate.

But, whichever way we call it, there are still fat people around ... everywhere.

I can't help myself, I am an advocate of tough love and I see achievers all day who benefit from it.

[fyrOM]

Is it your turn now to provoce and attack me or you are just way to ignorant in the present Macedonian affairs to know what you are talking about?

I have no interest in provoking you nor do I need a tag team to engage you. From the distance that I am it is inevitable that I cannot know as much as someone on the ground and how much this ignorance can affect my opinions and conclusions is for other to point out.

You want Macedonia to enter a conflict that she wont win and Macedonian young men to die in vain just to satisfy your warmongering frustration healing process while at the same time deeply endangering the state we finally created while you live your life safely tucked away in a prosperous first world country?

Hardly. It is juvenile to jump to conflict at every minor provocation and it is not what I am saying but as you would know that every action needs to hold the final solution in reserve. If the other side believes there will Never be any consequence to their actions then you are encouraging them to push the actions one level higher each time until it is war or runaway. War is either scrambling to defend yourself or a considered action weighing up your options and never to be taken lightly.

There are more then enough young Macedonian men who would willingly bare arms to wage a frontal war. There are more then enough of volunteers who will covertly provoce the shiptars to start the war by giving themselves as bait.

There are enough psychological books out here on how older minds can provoke younger minds into action and again it is not what I am saying.

War is an expensive thing. Do you think that the Macedonian Diaspora will raise enough money and support for its compatriots like the shiptars did? Would Macedonian Diaspora young men sign up to come and fight in the homeland? Will the Diaspora become aggressive and start continuos violent riots in the countries they reside in in order to force support for Macedonia or will it continue to fart in the wind through the internet attacking each other?

Do you always see things so black and white. You quote me bellow and is this all you got out of what I said…fight or flight or was the third option too complicated so lets just leave it out.

Quote:
Your kidding right. If you take the attitude the law applies to you to prevent you doing something but does not apply to them then you self define the rules of engagement against you…which is a weakness…which they will see as a weakness and as such a green light to pick on you…it’s a self fulfilling situation whose inevitable conclusion is complete capitulation ie you’re my bitch or armed conflict.

Yes, your conclusion is exact and you have every right to be mad but you see... I AM FURIOUS at the no win position we are in and many other things your knowledge can not comprehend.

At least you recognise the first two options and how on evaluation neither is palatable nor fulfilling and the inevitable outcome of such a mix is frustration at…as you put it…at the no win position. Is this really all you see. Having some action alleviates frustration. If you cant do this action can you not do that action.

That is why I am here on this forum. To see if it will be at all possible to do something about it with the help of the Macedonian Diaspora.
In the process if I have to step on somebody's toes, infuriate somebody's frustration or endanger somebody's greedy interests to do it... So be it!!!

And hence your feelings of needing to do Something and how important it is for you to do something even if…as you put it…step on some toes. The diaspora have made some right noises and appear to be interested in helping and your Something…amongst other things…is to investigate any possibilities.

Be patient! If it turns out that the Diaspora is only interested in quarreling amongst itself then I will go away by myself and never return.

And if it turns out to be a bunch of hot air you see no reason to waste your time with people puffing themselves up on the internet about how well they said this or that and…as you say…will go away by myself and never return. At least you would have found out if the diaspora are a positive resource or if the negative stereotypes being flung about are.

Sound about right so far.

Is there any options the government could be taking.
The impetus may or may not begin with the diaspora but just the fact of the matter is All the real action is on the ground…it always is in any situation.
I did say there is a third option.
Hopefully having discussed the futility of options 1 and 2 they can be put aside.
Ill leave it there.

P.S.
The shiptars aren't as strong as we are weak at the moment. This present situation isn't permanent and can be altered to our favour but not in the way you constantly propose.

[fyrOM]

what has held you back from returning after all these years (future) - you work for the government? Macedonian band? You know Tome?

Probably a lack of citizenship…many Macedonians from Australia went back to live in RoM without getting there citizenship and then could not come back to Australia when they wanted to…you cant account for Macedonia stupidity and stubborn pride…my parents were the same until we had an argument and I said we are either doing it or when I turn 18 I’m doing it on my own and stuff you.