Macedonian patriotic art

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Its not about who is a “patriot” and who is a “traitor”, it’s about the conditions and reasons as to why we have a “new flag”.

The facts are that the current flag was not the people’s first choice, and most importantly it was IMPOSED onto the Macedonian people. Macedonian people didn’t choose the current flag; it was decided by other out side forces with political and racist intentions.

History says that the current flag was changed mainly because of grik pressure, the reasons being that because the Macedonian sun is “greek” hence why they can only use the sun and we cant. How can you really respect a flag that represents defeat and cultural/historical suicide?

If there was a Macedonian referendum and Macedonians voted to use the new flag then I wouldn’t be complaining, but because the flag was changed with out the peoples approval but instead with the approval of the “greeks” I therefore can’t really appreciate it. The flag is just a big huge sign that shows to the world that we Macedonians don’t have a say in our country anymore and we succumb to outside pressure easily.

BBS, I agree with your points and understand where you are coming from. My main argument was that it is not the new flag itself that signifies defeat and pressure, for it is merely a symbol of Macedonia.
Rather, it is the act by these traitors that shows we cannot stand up for ourselves. I know I may sound as if I'm contradicting myself, but I'm simply delving deeper into the situation, as opposed to labelling the new flag as a sign of defeat. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, I'm having trouble putting it into words myself.

Put it this way, if Macedonia changed it's flag from say a lion emblem to the old sonce, given the same circumstances which took place in reality, would we immediately associate the 16-ray sun with defeat and weakness?
The new flag has a history of its own and has been around since ancient times, so surely it does not deserve to be branded with the acts of traitors.

The act was very wrong, and going against the peoples will is not acceptable. If a proposal to bring the old flag back was put forward, I would welcome it with open arms. I only have the old flag on my wall, and do not plan on acquiring the new one, out of personal preference. I believe my views are partly in line with most of you, however my main point is that the flag does not deserve disrespect, as in its own existence, it has nothing to do with the crimes of those who seek to destroy Macedonia.

[Risto the Great]

But the flag itself, like in any other country, does serve a specific purpose representing the state and the people who identify with the State. In our case Macedonia.

Yes, flags can be good.

That's why those people on the protest are not anything less by respecting and waving the current flag for representing their Macedonian identity, as it was clearly the case of rejecting any name change under the new flag by the same Macedonians, but also never stopped using the old flag nor they see a replacement for it.

I have no idea what this means Bratot.

It's not something that you can compare to your old wore out pants, just like that.

I shouldn't have compared the flag to my pants. My pants do not represent capitulation.

[Risto the Great]

Well, it's not quiet the same situation since Macedonia in the '90s was a new born sovereign state who just have chosen a new flag.
The old flag was used some 3-4 years before it changed.

On the other hand ,i wouldn't care that much for flags-although there is a wide heraldic history here.
If the people voted for the flag,or if they liked it ...why not?

After all what is to be gained with a constant frustration or a rejection of the flag that waves in your mother country for 15 years?

This is of course just my opinion.

FF, Macedonia is a nation. It is the same in every sense as Germany. Time has nothing to do with it. A sovereign nation has implicit rights and being forced to change your flag to satisfy a hostile neighbouring nation is unacceptable.

I don't care about the flag choice, I care about a nation that folded to the demands of a country that has a history of persecuting Macedonians both within its own borders and beyond. You may never understand how important this issue is but I will say that this is just one of many issues created by Greece and supported by the EU.

[Vangelovski]

hah if you don't understand me than how did you came out with such conclussion?

Don't play words with me, don't pretend you don't understand, don't impose yourself as some authority, don't even think you can judge me or my ideological stands.

If there is something specific you don't understand, you can ask to be explained to you again.
But don't think that I'm not aware that you can simply use the language issue as well only to discredit my opinion, which is most probably the case and reflects you poor intentions.

And since you mentioned "Macedonian Freedom", who are you to put limits on what flag will represent us?

According to you flawed logic one can at this stage (based on your effort to impose your ideological arbitery and banning flags) reasonably conclude that you oppose Macedonian freedom.

P.S. Have you accepted the UN membership of Macedonia under the imposed provisional name at first place when our aplication for the membership was forcily denominated?
OMG Vangelovski you support the Interim Accord!

Jesus Christ, you are walking contradictions Mr. Vangelovski, I think the High Court of Indigen's should question your idealogical reliability.

Bratot,

How about you start by explaining WHY you support the VENTILATOR?

Only the Macedonian people can FREELY chose which flag represents them. The VENTILATOR was never freely chosen - it was imposed on us by the Greek state and an illegitimate Gligorov Government. The key here is the inherent right of a FREE PEOPLE to FREELY CHOOSE.

HOW exactly did you conclude that the VENTILATOR represents the Macedonian people or state and WHY? Use whatever language you feel comfortable with, but I will remind you that your ramblings at the moment are looking more and more like a cover for your unwillingness to clearly state WHY you support the VENTILATOR when it was NEVER chosen by the Macedonian people and acts as nothing more than a reminder of our current slavery.

Its a disgrace, that 20 years after independence, we still need to explain basic concepts such as freedom, self-determination and natural rights and we still have those among us that oppose our freedoms and liberties.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

How about you start by explaining WHY you support the VENTILATOR?

Only the Macedonian people can FREELY chose which flag represents them. The VENTILATOR was never freely chosen - it was imposed on us by the Greek state and an illegitimate Gligorov Government. The key here is the inherent right of a FREE PEOPLE to FREELY CHOOSE.

HOW exactly did you conclude that the VENTILATOR represents the Macedonian people or state and WHY? Use whatever language you feel comfortable with, but I will remind you that your ramblings at the moment are looking more and more like a cover for your unwillingness to clearly state WHY you support the VENTILATOR when it was NEVER chosen by the Macedonian people and acts as nothing more than a reminder of our current slavery.

The people did chosed already, I don't think anyone has forced the people to adopt the new flag as their own as there are still those who haven't done that.
None of us feels forced to use the current flag!

There are people, even Jankovska is among those as well, that like the new design more than the previous.

How about you go and forbid those people from the photos to use the current flag!?

Do I need to conclude something that is visual?

And I did tried to explain something that obviously Risto would rather piss on it than admit, but this flag has been long enough to get purely Macedonian characteur, standing for our sport, cultural, any kind of national achievements, there are generations of military personel that served and serve under that flag, there are people who fought under that flag, people whose relatives died deffending their state under that flag, there are too many connections to it, making it too difficult to accept the humiliation that you offer to all those who does feel as Macedonians under that flag.

If I chose to dignify the both flags, as Macedonian, which is my natural right and I will defend it in the same way that I will defend your right to have your own opinion expressed even though I don't agree with you.

That's probably all I wanted to say on this thread.

:rmacedonia

[Vangelovski]

I shouldn't have compared the flag to my pants. My pants do not represent capitulation.

Your old pants have much more meaning then the Ventilator - you freely chose them, you freely wore them and you freely disposed of them.

[Vangelovski]

The people did chosed already, I don't think anyone has forced the people to adopt the new flag as their own as there are still those who haven't done that.
None of us feels forced to use the current flag!

There are people, Jankovska is among those as well, that like the new design more than the previous.

How about you go and forbid those people from the photos to use the current flag!?

Do I need to conclude something that is visual?

And I did tried to explain something that obviously Risto would rather piss on it than admit, but this flag has been long enough to get purely Macedonian characteur, standing for our sport, cultural, any kind of national achievements, there are generations of military personel that served and serve under that flag, there are people who fought under that flag, people whose relatives died deffending their state under that flag, there are that too connections to it, making it too difficult to accept the humiliating that you offer to all those who does feel as Macedonians under that flag.

If I chose to dignify the both flags, as Macedonian, which is my natural right and I will defend it in the same way that I will defend your right to have your own opinion expressed even though I don't agree with you.

That's probably all I wanted to say on this thread.

:rmacedonia

Bratot,

HOW was the ventilator FREELY chosen? Repeating that it was does not make it so - the Greek state and the illegitimate Gligorov Government IMPOSED it on us.

If you now choose to accept this symbol, you cannot pretend that it does not represent treason and a denial of our natural rights. That was exactly its purpose - so that the Greek state can deconstruct the Macedonian identity and its connection to the ancient Macedonian past.

Tell us exactly HOW LONG needs to pass before TREASON can be passed off as an act patriotism? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?

Macedonians participated in exactly the same situations under Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian and Yugoslav flags. HOW and WHY do these situations/circumstances make TREASON acceptable and respectable?

How many of these athletes, soldiers etc FREELY CHOSE to serve under the ventilator? Dostoinstvo, the organisation representing Macedonian veterans has FREELY chosen the sonce, NOT the ventilator as its organisations logo.

These flags (Greek, Bulgarian etc) are still symbols of SLAVERY. But by YOUR logic, we should respect them as symbols of the Macedonian people rather than symbols of our SLAVERY.

[freifrau]

FF, Macedonia is a nation. It is the same in every sense as Germany. Time has nothing to do with it. A sovereign nation has implicit rights and being forced to change your flag to satisfy a hostile neighbouring nation is unacceptable.

I don't care about the flag choice, I care about a nation that folded to the demands of a country that has a history of persecuting Macedonians both within its own borders and beyond.

I really understand your point of view.

It is just one more part of this story,of which the main aspect is the name.
A clearly weird and unacceptable issue for me: denial for some people to self determinate!

On the other hand ...i believe that both this antiquisation of modern reality and the rejection of current symbols in the Republic of Macedonia does not lead anywhere.

What do you think would be a satisfying solution?
Adopting a new flag? restoring the 1992 flag..?

Finally,I think you,who live abroad,should just show more compasion and understand to the people who live in the republic.

You may never understand how important this issue is but I will say that this is just one of many issues created by Greece and supported by the EU.

What do you think the EU has to gain of this?
Demonizing Europe is really not the right way to interpret the facts .
Maybe you should rethink your stance also...and consider if you have made also mistakes.
Unless you believe EU is the empire of evil who wants to destroy Macedonia...

[Bratot]

Bratot,

HOW was the ventilator FREELY chosen? Repeating that it was does not make it so - the Greek state and the illegitimate Gligorov Government IMPOSED it on us.

If you now choose to accept this symbol, you cannot pretend that it does not represent treason and a denial of our natural rights. That was exactly its purpose - so that the Greek state can deconstruct the Macedonian identity and its connection to the ancient Macedonian past.
Tell us exactly HOW LONG needs to pass before TREASON can be passed off as an act patriotism? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?

Macedonians participated in exactly the same situations under Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian and Yugoslav flags. HOW and WHY do these situations/circumstances make TREASON acceptable and respectable?

These flags (Greek, Bulgarian etc) are still symbols of SLAVERY. But by YOUR logic, we should respect them as symbols of the Macedonian people rather than symbols of our SLAVERY.

Do you want to tell us that Macedonian identity didn't existed before the usage of the 16 rayed sun flag?

Do you really think the people are being forced to wave the current flag?

[Vangelovski]

Do you want to tell us that Macedonian identity didn't existed before the usage of the 16 rayed sun flag?

Do you really think the people are being forced to wave the current flag?

Bratot,

How about you start making some sense?

HOW was the ventilator FREELY chosen? Repeating that it was does not make it so - the Greek state and the illegitimate Gligorov Government IMPOSED it on us.

Tell us exactly HOW LONG needs to pass before TREASON can be passed off as an act patriotism? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?

Greece IMPOSED a number of measures on the Macedonian people, including the ventilator, in an attempt to DECONSTRUCT their identity. Try thinking about this one.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

How about you start making some sense?

HOW was the ventilator FREELY chosen? Repeating that it was does not make it so - the Greek state and the illegitimate Gligorov Government IMPOSED it on us.

Tell us exactly HOW LONG needs to pass before TREASON can be passed off as an act patriotism? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?

Greece IMPOSED a number of measures on the Macedonian people, including the ventilator, in an attempt to DECONSTRUCT their identity. Try thinking about this one.

Are you trained to replay on a Bot manner without reading the answers to your questions?

Fortunatelly, your concept has been already defeated, because the Greek attempt to deconstruct our identity has failed, first of all because our identity is not fixed to the specific symbol of the 16 rayed sun and does not depend of it's official usage.
Our identity went through many turbulent periods and have made to live through without the flag you try to depict as the determinant of our existence.

No one forced the people to accept the flag as their own, I already explained that in my previous post. They freely chosen to make it another Macedonian symbol.

The current flag did not commited any treason, therefore cannot replace the real traitors.
You are using the typical political hypocrisy of hiding the real responcible behind the ideological curtain, something alike what post-Communists have done when condemned the political victims during the communist era as "victims of the communism", of an ideology, instead of real individuals, who physically hurted or ordered those crimes.


The current flag didn't injured Macedonian identity, on a contrary have became just another symbol of Macedonian disobedience against the pressure to change the name.

The Greek atempt has been proved as a failure, the act of treason cannot be resolved without the real traitors behind the bars.

[Risto the Great]

I really understand your point of view.

I hope so. But I fear you might not grasp all of it yet. I hope you hang around long enough to understand it all.

On the other hand ...i believe that both this antiquisation of modern reality and the rejection of current symbols in the Republic of Macedonia does not lead anywhere.

You must understand that the only argument Greece has about claiming Macedonia's name and heritage is based on a tenuous connection to it in antiquity. It has no other connection. All arguments by Greece are based on 2000 year old (weak) theories. The EU and United Nations have embraced the Greek arguments readily. Is Macedonia not entitled to dispute these arguments? Should Macedonia stand some higher moral ground and argue the historical irrelevance to the matter at hand? No, it needs to address each and every issue including historical debates (because clearly the EU & UN are lapping it up) as well as crimes against Macedonian people in modern times.

What do you think would be a satisfying solution?
Adopting a new flag? restoring the 1992 flag..?

Restoring the 1992 flag is obviously a sign that Macedonia is an equal nation in the eyes of the world. Whatever happens thereafter (including a new flag with my face on it) is up to the Macedonian people ONLY!

Finally,I think you,who live abroad,should just show more compasion and understand to the people who live in the republic.

It seems like a reasonable suggestion. Perhaps we in the Diaspora represent an extreme element. But please remember, nobody here is advocating war or terrorist activities. We are simply demanding human rights attributable to a sovereign nation. If reminding Macedonians in the Republic of these rights is not being compassionate, then perhaps Macedonians in the Republic can seek a compassionate ear from Greece and the EU on these matters.

Perhaps we understand the people of Macedonia all too well. They are suffering from "battered wife syndrome". When their drunk husband comes home with flowers and only hits them a little bit, they think life is improving. Does a battered housewife stand up for herself or do responsible people step in and say this is unacceptable (or both).

What do you think the EU has to gain of this?
Demonizing Europe is really not the right way to interpret the facts .
Maybe you should rethink your stance also...and consider if you have made also mistakes.
Unless you believe EU is the empire of evil who wants to destroy Macedonia...

By supporting Greece with this blatant attack on the sovereignty of Macedonia, the EU is absolutely guilty. I am positive the EU does not want to destroy Macedonia, it simply wants a compliant little nation that provides resources to the Union and could not care less about Macedonians. It does not want the USA or anybody else interrupting the continuity of the Union and is still making silly offerings of "hope" to Macedonia to lull it into submission.

[Risto the Great]

Your old pants have much more meaning then the Ventilator - you freely chose them, you freely wore them and you freely disposed of them.

Please don't write off my pants yet ... I am yet to dispose of them. From now on, I will wear them as an outward sign of protest against all forms of capitulation.

[Vangelovski]

Are you trained to replay on a Bot manner without reading the answers to your questions?

Fortunatelly, your concept has been already defeated, because the Greek attempt to deconstruct our identity has failed, first of all because our identity is not fixed to the specific symbol of the 16 rayed sun and does not depend of it's official usage.
Our identity went through many turbulent periods and have made to live through without the flag you try to depict as the determinant of our existence.

No one forced the people to accept the flag as their own, I already explained that in my previous post. They freely chosen to make it another Macedonian symbol.

The current flag did not commited any treason, therefore cannot replace the real traitors.
You are using the typical political hypocrisy of hiding the real responcible behind the ideological curtain, something alike what post-Communists have done when condemned the political victims during the communist era as "victims of the communism", of an ideology, instead of real individuals, who physically hurted or ordered those crimes.


The current flag didn't injured Macedonian identity, on a contrary have became just another symbol of Macedonian disobedience against the pressure to change the name.

The Greek atempt has been proved as a failure, the act of treason cannot be resolved without the real traitors behind the bars.

Bratot,

You're still not making sense. But from what I can gather, you're avoiding answering the fundamental questions - so I'll post them again for you:

HOW was the ventilator FREELY chosen?

Tell us exactly HOW LONG needs to pass before TREASON can be passed off as an act patriotism? 5 years? 10 years? 15 years?

I included the reasoning behind Greece's imposition of a new flag on us to remind you what that flag stands for. However, the reason is not as important as the fact that Greece DID IMPOSE that flag on us. As to their success, you are a shining example of how readily you have accepted their negation of our rights and freedoms.

For a symbol of the people to be FREELY chosen, it must meet a number of criteria:

1. The case for change must be initiated by the people it is to represent.

2. The case for change must be made by the people it is to represent.

3. The case for change must be accepted by the people it is to represent.

4. The new design must be accepted by the people it is to represent.

The case of the ventilator did not meet any of these requirements.

The fact that you and other (uninformed, naive or deceptive) people have now chosen to use this symbol does not make your decision "free". It is analogous to being thrown into prison and then being asked which cell you would like to live in.

[blackcactus]

The current flag should not be disrespected using terms that like ‘ventilator’ which some Greeks have also used to their amusement, I don’t feel like supporting such attitudes.

The use of such terms will only polarize the Macedonian people in RoM, making a transition back to the old flag potentially more problematic than it should be, people get defensive if provoked even if they agree with the basic message

Use common sense when talking about this sensitive issue

If you don’t like the flag, say so in a polite way, but don’t put other Macedonians down for having some connection to a flag that already has many of the Macedonian symbolism’s incorporated in it, the 8 rays, the colours, the overall sun image

I would like the old flag back, because it’s the one RoM chose for it self before any pressures was put on it (i.e. crippling sanctions), and in time I believe it will be reinstated

The current flags ‘symbolism’ was freely chosen, but the actual flag isn’t our choice, therefore we should honor the symbolism of the new flag, but constantly reaffirm our belief in the reinstatement of the old flag

We must have the old flag back as it was wrong of a stronger power to force a change to a national symbol, redressing this injustice must be one of RoM’s goals