Macedonian patriotic art

[lavce pelagonski]

Can we please get back to the patriotic art. That is why I created the thread not for political discussion thaT COULD BE DONE IN ANOTHER THREAD more pictures less talk, unless its about the art.
thanks

[Risto the Great]

I questioned what constitutes patriotic art. After defining "patriot" I would suggest some art does not qualify for inclusion in this thread.

If you want to create a thread called "Macedonian Art", anything would go I suppose.

[lavce pelagonski]

That is true non of this ventilator stuff.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski,

You can fully support any fool you find suitable but you are not any authority nor the arbitary of my ideological view nor you are appointed here to correct somebody else's view.
Not mentioning the few times you embarrassed yourself with you suppossed knowledge on every subject which resulted only making a fool of yourself. The arrogance wont cover up for your incompetency.

You act as if you have the copyrights of the true Macedonian ideology, but you don't, you don't have some exclusive statutory right to exercise control over the cause. No one does!

And of course, I don't have to explain not only to you but to anyone why I support the flag of my country.

Bratot,

Your problem is ideological CONTRADICTIONS. You claim to support two completely OPPOSING views.

You support a RAG that the Greek state and Macedonian traitors imposed on us and you CANT explain WHY because you will reveal your true ideological leanings. Macedonians did NOT CHOOSE the ventilator. The Greek state forced us to change our flag and an ILLEGITIMATE Gligorov Government (which rigged the elections to maintain power) imposed the ventilator onto the Macedonian people.

[Bratot]

Bratot, I would reject anything and everything except what I have originally chosen.

Now you are asking if I would accept a flag that was closer to the original. If we are happy with a requirement to change the flag, then we can be happy using any one of a number of flag options. But you have to be happy with the requirement to change the flag imposed on us by our proven national and economic enemy in Greece.

You don't have to be happy with the requirement nor you have to accept the new flag that arosed from the circumstances.

But the flag itself, like in any other country, does serve a specific purpose representing the state and the people who identify with the State. In our case Macedonia.

That's why those people on the protest are not anything less by respecting and waving the current flag for representing their Macedonian identity, as it was clearly the case of rejecting any name change under the new flag by the same Macedonians, but also never stopped using the old flag nor they see a replacement for it.



You can't simply humiliate the flag that during these 15 years was attached to our purest national feelings in all kinds of situations:
















It's not something that you can compare to your old wore out pants, just like that.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Your problem is ideological CONTRADICTIONS. You claim to support two completely OPPOSING views.

You support a RAG that the Greek state and Macedonian traitors imposed on us and you CANT explain WHY because you will reveal your true ideological leanings. Macedonians did NOT CHOOSE the ventilator. The Greek state forced us to change our flag and an ILLEGITIMATE Gligorov Government (which rigged the elections to maintain power) imposed the ventilator onto the Macedonian people.

The same trators chosed the old flag and the same traitors chose to change it.




A flag can't provide one man decentness .. but the contrary.


No one need to explain to you anything nor you represent some standard of what the true ideological standings could mean to the rest of Macedonians.

Capisce?

[Daniel the Great]

Ok people, don't get too fired up over this, both flags are Macedonian symbols and both deserve respect.

16 rayed sun flag: The flag that represents the Macedonian people in Macedonia and all around the world.

8 rayed sun flag: the flag that represents the Republic of Macedonia, the state flag.

I am sure we can all agree on what i have stated and leave it as it is.

[freifrau]

BREAKING NEWS:
FF, apparently (yesterday) Germany was told by France it could no longer have it's present flag. Germany chose a new one. Are you proud of the choice? Will you become more proud as time goes by? Should you be more concerned about who chose the new flag or who made you choose the new flag?

Well, it's not quiet the same situation since Macedonia in the '90s was a new born sovereign state who just have chosen a new flag.
The old flag was used some 3-4 years before it changed.

On the other hand ,i wouldn't care that much for flags-although there is a wide heraldic history here.
If the people voted for the flag,or if they liked it ...why not?

After all what is to be gained with a constant frustration or a rejection of the flag that waves in your mother country for 15 years?

This is of course just my opinion.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

What on earth are you on about??? If you can't express yourself clearly in English (which you cannot), I suggest you start expressing yourself clearly in a language you are comfortable with rather than hiding behind absolute unintelligible nonsense.

The VENTILATOR was NOT freely chosen by the Macedonian people. It was IMPOSED on us through the Interim Accord and you are yet to tell us WHY you support it. Though one can at this stage (based on your opposition to Macedonian self-determination in this case and your previous comments in relation to other issues) reasonably conclude that you support the Interim Accord and oppose Macedonian freedom.

[Vangelovski]

Well, it's not quiet the same situation since Macedonia in the '90s was a new born sovereign state who just have chosen a new flag.
The old flag was used some 3-4 years before it changed.

On the other hand ,i wouldn't care that much for flags-although there is a wide heraldic history here.
If the people voted for the flag,or if they liked it ...why not?

After all what is to be gained with a constant frustration or a rejection of the flag that waves in your mother country for 15 years?

This is of course just my opinion.

What is your objective here? To deny us self-determination? To deny us freedom?

[EgejskaMakedonia]

With respect EM. The heading of the thread refers to patriotic art. Given the definition of patriot implies some kind of defense, I cannot see how the new flag represents anything other than capitulation .... which is the opposite of defense.

I am looking forward to more patriotic art.

Fair enough, but I can assure you that that was not the intended purpose of the thread..but any debate is healthy for the forum. The reason for me initially brining this up was that with all the discussion and images being posted simultaneously, things may start to become all over the place.

I believe your point is very valid Risto, however from what I have read in this thread many of you seem to perceive those who take a shining to the new flag as non-patriotic or traitors in one sense or another.
The new flag is Macedonia's current and official flag. I've already stated my opinion regarding which flag I favour, and my reasons for that, however the flag still represents the Macedonian people. When a non-macedonian sees the 8-rayed sun symbol, they will associate it with the Macedonian identity and nation.
It's not like we are running around with Albanian or Greek flags on our back, this flag is still ours and should be recognised in that way.

What of those who were born after the flag change? Many have become accustomed to the new flag and have maintained their strong allegiance to Macedonia and the Macedonian identity.
It is well known that those who did succumb to greek pressure did opt to change the flag, labelling them as traitors.
Although, is it fair to associate proud Macedonians that respect the new flag of Macedonia with these bunch of commies?
As far as I'm concerned, if their heart is in the right place, they respect Macedonia and acknowledge their Macedonian identity, it shouldn't make it wrong to support both flags.
I make it clear though, that showing approval for only the new flag and not the old one is not right. We must learn to express all symbols that represent us, whether it be the 16-ray sun, 8-ray sun, the lion, etc....thus the purpose for this thread.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

What on earth are you on about??? If you can't express yourself clearly in English (which you cannot), I suggest you start expressing yourself clearly in a language you are comfortable with rather than hiding behind absolute unintelligible nonsense.

The VENTILATOR was NOT freely chosen by the Macedonian people. It was IMPOSED on us through the Interim Accord and you are yet to tell us WHY you support it. Though one can at this stage (based on your opposition to Macedonian self-determination in this case and your previous comments in relation to other issues) reasonably conclude that you support the Interim Accord and oppose Macedonian freedom.

hah if you don't understand me than how did you came out with such conclussion?

Don't play words with me, don't pretend you don't understand, don't impose yourself as some authority, don't even think you can judge me or my ideological stands.

If there is something specific you don't understand, you can ask to be explained to you again.
But don't think that I'm not aware that you can simply use the language issue as well only to discredit my opinion, which is most probably the case and reflects you poor intentions.

And since you mentioned "Macedonian Freedom", who are you to put limits on what flag will represent us?

According to you flawed logic one can at this stage (based on your effort to impose your ideological arbitery and banning flags) reasonably conclude that you oppose Macedonian freedom.

P.S. Have you accepted the UN membership of Macedonia under the imposed provisional name at first place when our aplication for the membership was forcily denominated?
OMG Vangelovski you support the Interim Accord!

Jesus Christ, you are walking contradictions Mr. Vangelovski, I think the High Court of Indigen's should question your idealogical reliability.

[Bratot]

Fair enough, but I can assure you that that was not the intended purpose of the thread..but any debate is healthy for the forum. The reason for me initially brining this up was that with all the discussion and images being posted simultaneously, things may start to become all over the place.

I believe your point is very valid Risto, however from what I have read in this thread many of you seem to perceive those who take a shining to the new flag as non-patriotic or traitors in one sense or another.
The new flag is Macedonia's current and official flag. I've already stated my opinion regarding which flag I favour, and my reasons for that, however the flag still represents the Macedonian people. When a non-macedonian sees the 8-rayed sun symbol, they will associate it with the Macedonian identity and nation.
It's not like we are running around with Albanian or Greek flags on our back, this flag is still ours and should be recognised in that way.

What of those who were born after the flag change? Many have become accustomed to the new flag and have maintained their strong allegiance to Macedonia and the Macedonian identity.
It is well known that those who did succumb to greek pressure did opt to change the flag, labelling them as traitors.
Although, is it fair to associate proud Macedonians that respect the new flag of Macedonia with these bunch of commies?
As far as I'm concerned, if their heart is in the right place, they respect Macedonia and acknowledge their Macedonian identity, it shouldn't make it wrong to support both flags.
I make it clear though, that showing approval for only the new flag and not the old one is not right. We must learn to express all symbols that represent us, whether it be the 16-ray sun, 8-ray sun, the lion, etc....thus the purpose for this thread.

And here is one more person to understand perfectly what I have been trying to explain.

Thank you for your fair explanation EM.

[Big Bad Sven]

Fair enough, but I can assure you that that was not the intended purpose of the thread..but any debate is healthy for the forum. The reason for me initially brining this up was that with all the discussion and images being posted simultaneously, things may start to become all over the place.

I believe your point is very valid Risto, however from what I have read in this thread many of you seem to perceive those who take a shining to the new flag as non-patriotic or traitors in one sense or another.
The new flag is Macedonia's current and official flag. I've already stated my opinion regarding which flag I favour, and my reasons for that, however the flag still represents the Macedonian people. When a non-macedonian sees the 8-rayed sun symbol, they will associate it with the Macedonian identity and nation.
It's not like we are running around with Albanian or Greek flags on our back, this flag is still ours and should be recognised in that way.

What of those who were born after the flag change? Many have become accustomed to the new flag and have maintained their strong allegiance to Macedonia and the Macedonian identity.
It is well known that those who did succumb to greek pressure did opt to change the flag, labelling them as traitors.
Although, is it fair to associate proud Macedonians that respect the new flag of Macedonia with these bunch of commies?
As far as I'm concerned, if their heart is in the right place, they respect Macedonia and acknowledge their Macedonian identity, it shouldn't make it wrong to support both flags.
I make it clear though, that showing approval for only the new flag and not the old one is not right. We must learn to express all symbols that represent us, whether it be the 16-ray sun, 8-ray sun, the lion, etc....thus the purpose for this thread.

Its not about who is a “patriot” and who is a “traitor”, it’s about the conditions and reasons as to why we have a “new flag”.

The facts are that the current flag was not the people’s first choice, and most importantly it was IMPOSED onto the Macedonian people. Macedonian people didn’t choose the current flag; it was decided by other out side forces with political and racist intentions.

History says that the current flag was changed mainly because of grik pressure, the reasons being that because the Macedonian sun is “greek” hence why they can only use the sun and we cant. How can you really respect a flag that represents defeat and cultural/historical suicide?

If there was a Macedonian referendum and Macedonians voted to use the new flag then I wouldn’t be complaining, but because the flag was changed with out the peoples approval but instead with the approval of the “greeks” I therefore can’t really appreciate it. The flag is just a big huge sign that shows to the world that we Macedonians don’t have a say in our country anymore and we succumb to outside pressure easily.

[Risto the Great]

The flag is just a big huge sign that shows to the world that we Macedonians don’t have a say in our country anymore and we succumb to outside pressure easily.

The point has been thrashed to death, but it is nice to see it in spelled out so succinctly.