Macedonian Nationalism

[aleksandrov]

...Aleksandrov

Why are you bringing up ethnicity when this is about Nationalism and culture? ...

Huh? What books was it that you said you've read on nationalism? Do they say anything about the relationship between nationalism and ethnicity or nationalism and culture or ethnicity and culture or nationality and nationalism or nationality and ethnicity or nationality and culture ....?

Why are you dodging questions, while trying to interrogate everybody else?

You tried to dispute the existence of an indigenous Macedonian ethnicity on the basis that a standard definitions of 'indigenous' I referred you to was too vague for you. You offered an alternative definition of indigenous that you apparently prefer, so I asked you a simple question based on that definition:

"So would you say that the Macedonian ethnicity of today or of ancient times does not originate from or is not characteristic of the region or country known as Macedonia?"

Yes or no?

[aleksandrov]

So you can't pinpoint anything of our 'indigenous culture' with any evidence?

You are now starting to remind me of Greek and Bulgarian deniers of the Macedonian identity who ask for evidence of the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity prior to WWII. Where exactly would you like us to start with the evidence and why should we have to prove our indigenous Macedonian heritage to you? What ethnic or national ancestry do you claim and what evidence do you have of it?

[TrueMacedonian]

You are now starting to remind me of Greek and Bulgarian deniers of the Macedonian identity who ask for evidence of the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity prior to WWII. Where exactly would you like us to start with the evidence and why should we have to prove our indigenous Macedonian heritage to you? What ethnic or national ancestry do you claim and what evidence do you have of it?

Aleksandrov where have I denied anything? I am asking questions because this seems to be a hot topic on this forum lately. I see alot of people making the claim to an "indigenous Macedonian culture" but I see no evidence to back up their claims. You're getting defensive. Why?
As I have stated before the evidence that is available is slim. But there are alot of questions to ask about the evidence we do have.
I have mentioned some evidence on post #23. But I also asked some questions with the evidence available. So instead of getting defensive and accusing me of acting like Macedonia's neighbors why not put the cards on the table and examine everything without being afraid of upsetting the apple cart.

[TrueMacedonian]

Huh? What books was it that you said you've read on nationalism? Do they say anything about the relationship between nationalism and ethnicity or nationalism and culture or ethnicity and culture or nationality and nationalism or nationality and ethnicity or nationality and culture ....?

Why are you dodging questions, while trying to interrogate everybody else?

You tried to dispute the existence of an indigenous Macedonian ethnicity on the basis that a standard definitions of 'indigenous' I referred you to was too vague for you. You offered an alternative definition of indigenous that you apparently prefer, so I asked you a simple question based on that definition:

"So would you say that the Macedonian ethnicity of today or of ancient times does not originate from or is not characteristic of the region or country known as Macedonia?"

Yes or no?

I've read a few books on nationalism. Books by Anderson, Gellner, Hobsbawm, White, Geary and a few others. They each have their opinions on how nationalism developed in Europe, especially the Balkans, and how groups of peoples had their version of their "imagined community" and how they built upon them.

As for me dodging questions I am not. And where is it that I am interrogating anyone? If anything Bratot offered up exactly what I asked from my first post. SoM gave me his opinion as well.

As for me disputing any evidence you have yet to provide me with any.

"So would you say that the Macedonian ethnicity of today or of ancient times does not originate from or is not characteristic of the region or country known as Macedonia?"

Yes or no?

Yes. But what I am asking for is the evidence and how much we know of it. It's real easy to say that "we have an indigenous Macedonian culture that goes back to Filip and Aleksander". How about we question the evidence available? Or is this wrong?

[aleksandrov]

TM,

There is ample evidence presented throughout this forum of an indigenous Macedonian identity and distinctly Macedonian cultural values having existed in ancient times, in medieval times, during Ottoman rule and in modern times. You've put on an academic pose in questioning the existence of an indigenous Macedonian identity (call it national, ethnic or whatever else you like), yet you cannot even make up your mind how you define indigenous, nationality, ethnicity, culture etc. Your questions are without foundation and quite amateurish. When similar questions are posed to you about whatever you consider the Macedonian identity to be or not to be, you engage in red herring and evasion.

I haven't seen any pattern of serious suggestions that the Macedonian nation or any other modern nation has continuously existed since ancient times in the modern form of nationhood that developed in Europe over the past couple of centuries. It is easy to shoot down a theory if you make up a weak one for that purpose and attribute it to imaginary opponents.

If you expect to be taken seriously when you ask for evidence of an indigenous Macedonian identity, the least you could do is is set a standard of evidence by reference to whatever your position on the origin of the Macedonian identity or any other ethnic or national identity you choose is.

How many people on this thread would you expect to make an effort to present evidence to you if you started a thread questioning the theory of evolution, without being specific about which elements of it you question and/or presenting your own alternative theory and backing it up with what you consider to be evidence? This is not a question an answer forum for primary or high school students and their teachers.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

There is ample evidence presented throughout this forum of an indigenous Macedonian identity and distinctly Macedonian cultural values having existed in ancient times, in medieval times, during Ottoman rule and in modern times. You've put on an academic pose in questioning the existence of an indigenous Macedonian identity (call it national, ethnic or whatever else you like), yet you cannot even make up your mind how you define indigenous, nationality, ethnicity, culture etc. Your questions are without foundation and quite amateurish. When similar questions are posed to you about whatever you consider the Macedonian identity to be or not to be, you engage in red herring and evasion.

I haven't seen any pattern of serious suggestions that the Macedonian nation or any other modern nation has continuously existed since ancient times in the modern form of nationhood that developed in Europe over the past couple of centuries. It is easy to shoot down a theory if you make up a weak one for that purpose and attribute it to imaginary opponents.

If you expect to be taken seriously when you ask for evidence of an indigenous Macedonian identity, the least you could do is is set a standard of evidence by reference to whatever your position on the origin of the Macedonian identity or any other ethnic or national identity you choose is.

How many people on this thread would you expect to make an effort to present evidence to you if you started a thread questioning the theory of evolution, without being specific about which elements of it you question and/or presenting your own alternative theory and backing it up with what you consider to be evidence? This is not a question an answer forum for primary or high school students and their teachers.

Sorry if I seem amateurish to you but I've already presented my theory on the Macedonian identity in post #31. Go ahead and read it again if you need to.

[aleksandrov]

31?

My opinion, and considering the cultural aspect only, is Macedonians today have a connection to their Christian forebears (but then again there's Bogomilism). But this would only apply to those who are Christians today. Those that are Muslim are not less Macedonian though. They must be considered our equal.

What 'cultural aspect only'?

Which Christian forebears did you have in mind in particular? What kind of connection do Macedonians today have with them?

Who says that Macedonians of today don't have 'A' connection to Christian forebears? This isn't exactly a revelation or a disputed fact. How does this statement of the obvious relate to the issue of whether or not there is an indigenous Macedonian identity?

What do you mean by "then again there's Bogomilism"? What about it?

Are you suggesting that Christian and Muslim Macedonians have different ethnic or national origins? You seem confused on this point. On the one hand you suggest that Macedonians today originate from some unspecified Christian forebears and that "this would only apply to those who are Christian today", yet on the other you say that "those that are Muslim are not less Macedonia". What does being "Macedonian" mean to you in this context?

Finally, where is the evidence for any of your claims, whatever they may be?

[TrueMacedonian]

What 'cultural aspect only'?

Which Christian forebears did you have in mind in particular? What kind of connection do Macedonians today have with them?

We are a majority Christians today. I think this in itself is a cultural legacy of our ancestors.

Who says that Macedonians of today don't have 'A' connection to Christian forebears? This isn't exactly a revelation or a disputed fact. How does this statement of the obvious relate to the issue of whether or not there is an indigenous Macedonian identity?

Like I said it is my opinion that Macedonians have a stronger cultural connection to their Christian forebears than the ancient pagan Macedonians.
And you keep mentioning an Indigenous Macedonian Identity. Which is it, indigenous Macedonian culture or indigenous Macedonian identity?

What do you mean by "then again there's Bogomilism"? What about it?

http://books.google.com/books?id=01lYi1pW7W4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+bogomils&hl=en&ei=taZMTKKlKYGC8gaa49gy&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Are there Macedonians who are Bogomils today?

Are you suggesting that Christian and Muslim Macedonians have different ethnic or national origins? You seem confused on this point. On the one hand you suggest that Macedonians today originate from some unspecified Christian forebears and that "this would only apply to those who are Christian today", yet on the other you say that "those that are Muslim are not less Macedonia". What does being "Macedonian" mean to you in this context?

The Christian and Muslim Macedonians do not share all the same cultural aspects due to their different religious beliefs. I think you are confused for not realizing this. Which is why I stated that they are our equals irregardless.

Finally, where is the evidence for any of your claims, whatever they may be?

I have pointed out the evidence already. Are we not majority Christians today as our Christian forebears before us? Or do we toast our wine to pagan Gods?

Can you provide solid evidence for an indigenous Macedonian identity? Or is it indigenous Macedonian culture?

[aleksandrov]

TM,

With the standard of 'evidence' you've set above for your own theories, I don't think it's worth putting in much effort to provide you with evidence of the theories you seem to dispute.

You've pointed to no evidence whatsoever of your own theory about the origin or evolution of the Macedonian people. In fact, you have not even adequately articulated what theory you subscribe to.

Your assertion that Macedonians being Christians today (in which you ignore non-Christian ethnic Macedonians) is evidence of our Christian roots is meaningless to the argument of whether or not there is an indigenous Macedonian ethnic identity. There are plenty of Aboriginals in Australia who are Christians today and nobody uses that to dispute their indigenous roots, even though Christianity has only been here for a couple of centuries. In fact, if we were to take being Christian today as evidence of ethnic or cultural discontinuity from pre-Christian ancestry, only pagans or followers of pre-Christian religions could rightly claim an indigenous ethnicity or culture in any country in the world. Apart from that, if (some) Macedonians being Christian today can be taken as evidence in itself of the Christian origins of the Macedonian culture/ethnicity/nationality (I am not sure which concept you are talking about any more), then there is no reason why (some) Macedonians being Macedonians and nothing else today can be taken as evidence in itself of their ancient MACEDONIAN origins.

On the question of whether I am talking about ethnicity or culture, I note that distinctive cultural elements are a basic element of any ethnic identity. In the Macedonian case, both the name of the Macedonian identity and the existence of distinct cultural characteristics have been around since before Christianity. They have also evolved with distinctly Macedonian elements and in a distinctly Macedonian context. There is plenty of credible evidence of that around. It just requires some competent research and logical thinking to find and digest it.

You still have not explained what you meant by "then again there's Bogomilism", in the context of your assertion that Macedonians have Christian origins? Were the Bogomils not Christians or of Christian origin?

Furthermore, Muslim and Christian Macedonians do share most of the cultural characteristics that can be said to be distinctly Macedonian. No, they do not share those cultural characteristic that are distinctly Christian or Islamic, but neither of those religions are distinctly characteristic of the Macedonian or any other ethnic or national group.

[Pelister]

I think that trying to characterise the Macedonian ethnic group as being more 'Christian' and less 'Pagan' does not account for the fact that Christianity in Macedonia was a specifically Macedonian tradition, not the other way around. I think if one is to talk about Christiantity in Macedonia, it should be the Macedonian tradition of Christianity. If there is a Christian tradition in Macedonia it is not because some one else gave it to us, but because Macedonians created it through their beautiful liturgies, monasteries, schools and academies ...etc. Byzantologists, for example, talk about 'the Macedonian School' because of its unique and distinctive characteristics. This is certainly one part of our authentic culture, but by no means the dominating characteristic, although it may appear to be today. Consider, for example, the fact that many Macedonian customs, traditions, rities and rituals, which although considered to be 'Pagan' were part of the Macedonian tradition and lived alongside Macedonian Christianity, were banned in the early part of last century, and banned in 1945. I think that essentializig 'Christianity' and essentializing 'Paganism' doesn't do our rich culture any justice whatsoever.

[Daniel the Great]

Thanks dtg. As far as Macedonians being indigenous to Macedonia how sure of this are you? What evidence is there of this? I ask only because there are Macedonians who self-describe as such today but who were possibly Vlachs 2 centuries ago. Would they be considered anything less now because they would happen to be missing a "Y-chromosome" gene?

TM, i can not give you the exact evidence for this but i believe that compared to the rest of our neighbors we the Macedonians are the closest to indigenous in the region.
Our unique culture and symbols etc are evidence in there own way.

[Bratot]

Can you specify what kind of "evidence" is actually expected for some people to be 'proved' as being satisfying indigenous?

Some practical example of given evidences would be helpful, I assume the valid deductive arguments to follow.

[Soldier of Macedon]

This is a good topic and discussion so let's try and put a few things into perspective so we can get something a little more 'definitive' in terms of how we view the history of Macedonians from the ancient times till present. Earlier, with regard to the evolution of Macedonian culture, I stated that:.

A part of this evolution would be the inclusion and integration of foreign elements, and also the refinement or alteration of existing elements to suit current circumstances.

There is no doubt that there have been inclusions from foreign elements, so we won't go into detail on that point just yet. However, regarding the refinement or alteration of existing elements, there is an interesting fact highlighted by John Wilkes with regard to the Illyrians and the continuation of their culture by the 'Slavs'. See below:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...Kolo#post13355

The Illyrian contribution to Slav popular culture included several less easily documented examples: the circle (kolo) dances of the southern Slavs and which seem to resemble those on funeral monuments of the Roman era; the sheperd's panpipes, five pipes of unequal lenth clamped together, which appear on situlae and on some Roman reliefs of Silvanus; and some polyphonic musical patterns, confined to the Slavs of Illyrian lands, which may be of ancient origin. Taken together, and there are probably several more examples which could be cited, they indicate a significant cultural inheritance but not necessarily an ethnic descent from Illyrians.

It is generally known in Macedonian as an 'oro', but there is absolutely no doubt that this is the same thing as the 'kolo' used by Serbs and others in the vicinity. While the traditional Macedonian gajda usually only has 2-3 pipes and doesn't look like a 'panpipe', it is still an ancient instrument that has significantly old roots in the region, which appears to draw a connection to the culture of the Celts who had onced lived around the Danube river. I believe that these two elements (oro and gajda) represent cultural characteristics that are indigenous to the region, without a doubt. It becomes harder to define these elements specifically as Macedonian by origin when we look at certain others in the region. For example, everybody in the Balkans has a circle dance, but then again, this may have been passed on to them by the Macedonians or others that have a Thraco-Illyrian origin. The only others who appear to use the gajda as a national or more frequent instrument, aside from the Macedonians, are the Bulgars and Albanians. If 'Bulgari' and 'Shqiptari' use this instrument today it certainly doesn't have anything to with their namesake, as the use of bagpipies in Scotland strongly indicates that this was a tradition of the Celts before their migration westward.

If we can start citing some example in this manner, we should start making genuine progress in identifying more characteristics.

[Bratot]

One remark to you SoM, your examples are rather prove of indigenous musical 'instruments' or culture generally which could be used by both 'indigenous' and non-indigenous people settled on our territory and can be transfered to the next generations irrespective of their true ethnic origin.

I think the 'indigenous' claim can be proved as only as 'continuity' of certain local traits and not really on a 'blood' purity factor.

[Soldier of Macedon]

One remark to you SoM, your examples are rather prove of indigenous musical 'instruments' or culture generally which could be used by both 'indigenous' and non-indigenous people settled on our territory and can be transfered to the next generations irrespective of their true ethnic origin.

This is true Bratot, that is why subsequent factors need to be considered to make more specific determinations regarding who these traits originally derived from. Let's compare the Macedonians and the Bulgars. The latter solemnly believe that their nation arrived from somewhere other than the Balkans, and for all intents and purposes, this is what they claim as their historical narrative. The Macedonians didn't originate from somewhere outside of the Balkans, nor do they harbour such fantastic theories. Using these two nations alone to draw a comparison in relation to this particular matter, I would say that the traditional use of the bagpipe would find an older history among the Macedonians than the Bulgars. Same applies for the kolo/oro dances. Of course, today, after centuries of use, it has become a part of Bulgar culture, and, while indigenous to the region in which they now live and the Thracian people they assimilated, it was not indigenous to the people they claim to have primarily descended from, who were the progenitors of their nation.

I think the 'indigenous' claim can be proved as only as 'continuity' of certain local traits and not really on a 'blood' purity factor.

I agree, blood purity is nonsense, however, DNA research does have its benefits.