Macedonian Nationalism

[TrueMacedonian]

What definition of 'indigenous' are you relying on?

Here is one:

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&defl=en&q=define:Indigenous+culture&sa=X&ei=aRtHTNZcx6tx_LWFtQ8&ved=0CBoQkAE

What, according to you, is the geographical region with which ethnic Macedonians have the earliest known historical connection?

My opinion, and considering the cultural aspect only, is Macedonians today have a connection to their Christian forebears (but then again there's Bogomilism). But this would only apply to those who are Christians today. Those that are Muslim are not less Macedonian though. They must be considered our equal.

The definition you posted for indigenous culture is vague especially considering the fact that there is no accurate way of pinpointing certain cultural aspects that may have survived from antiquity. And why must it be an indigenous culture? Why are we prone to having to rate ourselves to the ancients? Where did this become the rule of thumb? And why?

[aleksandrov]

My opinion, and considering the cultural aspect only, is Macedonians today have a connection to their Christian forebears (but then again there's Bogomilism). But this would only apply to those who are Christians today. Those that are Muslim are not less Macedonian though. They must be considered our equal.

The definition you posted for indigenous culture is vague especially considering the fact that there is no accurate way of pinpointing certain cultural aspects that may have survived from antiquity. And why must it be an indigenous culture? Why are we prone to having to rate ourselves to the ancients? Where did this become the rule of thumb? And why?

You didn't answer the questions.

I asked you what definition of "indigenous" you are relying on in disputing the existence of an indigenous Macedonian ethnic identity, but you are yet to provide one.

I referred you to one common definition of "indigenous" and asked a very clear and specific question: "What, according to you, is the geographical region with which ethnic Macedonians have the earliest known historical connection?" You didn't answer that either.

I am starting to wonder what exactly you are trying to dispute or prove.

I don't see where I attempted to pinpoint "certain cultural aspects that may have survived from antiquity", nor do I see why I should have to do so in order to assert an indigenous Macedonian ethnic identity. Do you? If so, what is your basis for this requirement?

Perhaps you can try giving us an "accurate way of pinpointing certain cultural aspects that may have survived from" any period you choose to start the evolution of the Macedonian ethnic identity with? Or at least tell us what you consider to be an 'accurate" definition of ethnicity and what authoritative references you base that definition on.

Also, I have not suggested anywhere that any culture "must" be an indigenous culture. The suggestion that there is an indigenous Macedonian ethnicity does not mean that I presume that any Macedonian ethnic identity MUST be indigenous in order to be valid. If I observe that the color of the wolf in my avatar is brown, am I saying that a wolf must be brown in order to be a real wolf?

[TrueMacedonian]

You didn't answer the questions.

I asked you what definition of "indigenous" you are relying on in disputing the existence of an indigenous Macedonian ethnic identity, but you are yet to provide one.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indigenous

Indigenous: originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native. Aboriginal.

I referred you to one common definition of "indigenous" and asked a very clear and specific question: "What, according to you, is the geographical region with which ethnic Macedonians have the earliest known historical connection?" You didn't answer that either.

The geographical region is Macedonia.

I am starting to wonder what exactly you are trying to dispute or prove.

The topic on hand is about Macedonian Nationalism. The first post is here for you to read if you skipped it;

There's people that say that an indigenous Macedonian culture exists today and has existed since the time of Alexander.

There are people who do not cater to such theories and feel that a Macedonian culture was something that eventually evolved generation to generation into what it is today.

And there are those who feel that this is a recent arrival to the playing field in Macedonia.


How much proof can anyone provide for any of the above?

And if someone has another theory besides the 3 above then list it and explain and provide your evidence.

Also has anyone read any books on the topic of 'Nationalism' itself? If so please provide the sources.

I don't see where I attempted to pinpoint "certain cultural aspects that may have survived from antiquity", nor do I see why I should have to do so in order to assert an indigenous Macedonian ethnic identity. Do you? If so, what is your basis for this requirement?

That depends now. What is your "indigenous Macedonian ethnic identity" defined as according to you?

Perhaps you can try giving us an "accurate way of pinpointing certain cultural aspects that may have survived from" any period you choose to start the evolution of the Macedonian ethnic identity with? Or at least tell us what you consider to be an 'accurate" definition of ethnicity and what authoritative references you base that definition on.

As stated earlier, and this is my opinion, the cultural aspects of Macedonians today may be found as far back as when Christianity entered the region and became widespread. This would only apply to Macedonians who are Christians today. Macedonians who are Muslim are not less Macedonian. Our differences are in how we worship and maybe some cultural differences.

As for authoritative references that depends because any authoritative reference I have read state that defining ethnicity is not easy and will only give you more questions to ask. But since you will ask again here's what the dictionary says - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnic
of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background <ethnic minorities> <ethnic enclaves> b : being a member of a specified ethnic group <an ethnic German> c : of, relating to, or characteristic of ethnics <ethnic neighborhoods> <ethnic foods>

Also, I have not suggested anywhere that any culture "must" be an indigenous culture. The suggestion that there is an indigenous Macedonian ethnicity does not mean that I presume that any Macedonian ethnic identity MUST be indigenous in order to be valid. If I observe that the color of the wolf in my avatar is brown, am I saying that a wolf must be brown in order to be a real wolf?

Fair enough.

[Vangelovski]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indigenous
Indigenous: originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native. Aboriginal.

TM,

If the Macedonians are not native to Macedonia and if they do not originate from and are characteristic of Macedonia, then where are they native to? Where are they characteristic of?

[aleksandrov]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indigenous
Indigenous: originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native. Aboriginal.

So would you say that the Macedonian ethnicity of today or of ancient times does not originate from or is not characteristic of the region or country known as Macedonia?

[Bratot]

There's people that say that an indigenous Macedonian culture exists today and has existed since the time of Alexander.

There are people who do not cater to such theories and feel that a Macedonian culture was something that eventually evolved generation to generation into what it is today.

And there are those who feel that this is a recent arrival to the playing field in Macedonia.


How much proof can anyone provide for any of the above?

And if someone has another theory besides the 3 above then list it and explain and provide your evidence.

I would define the Macedonian nationalism as "Benign Nationalism".

Benign nationalism is the unifying sense, being expressed in loyalty to the nation-state, in love for the native land, pride in a common culture and social institutions.
The benigh effects of this nationalism are: defending the culture of minorities, the preservation of the lost history, the inspiration for cultural renaissance, solving the crisis of identity, creation of social solidarity, and resistance to repression of national sovereignty.

Boyd Shafer's book: "Faces of Nationalism: New Realities and Old Myths".


The "benigh nationalism" is concealing the real heterogeneity of a society and creates a "alliance of equals".
It's producing an apparent homogenization of a society through the loyalty of a nation, which is called: emotionally mediated brotherhood

The nationalism itself arises from the primary emotional attachment to the country and culture and from the depth of antiquity, the Macedonian people holded the need for a constituting and organizing in their own political collective, through their community living.

The acceptation of this need is the basic condition for the emergence of the Macedonian constitutionalism today.
The emergence of the ancient Macedonian state is a precursor to this need and being as a model of a single centralized state is crucially important for the Macedonian constitutionalism.
Not only for unveiling of the old legitimacy of the state and statehood of the Macedonian people, but also for discovering the meaning of his existence.

For me personally every person belonging into the same (Macedonian) emotionally mediated brotherhood can be the Indigenous Macedonian equally.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

If the Macedonians are not native to Macedonia and if they do not originate from and are characteristic of Macedonia, then where are they native to? Where are they characteristic of?

Refer to the first post guys. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Aleksandrov

So would you say that the Macedonian ethnicity of today or of ancient times does not originate from or is not characteristic of the region or country known as Macedonia?

Why are you bringing up ethnicity when this is about Nationalism and culture?

Bratot said;

I would define the Macedonian nationalism as "Benign Nationalism".

Benign nationalism is the unifying sense, being expressed in loyalty to the nation-state, in love for the native land, pride in a common culture and social institutions.
The benigh effects of this nationalism are: defending the culture of minorities, the preservation of the lost history, the inspiration for cultural renaissance, solving the crisis of identity, creation of social solidarity, and resistance to repression of national sovereignty.

Boyd Shafer's book: "Faces of Nationalism: New Realities and Old Myths".


The "benigh nationalism" is concealing the real heterogeneity of a society and creates a "alliance of equals".
It's producing an apparent homogenization of a society through the loyalty of a nation, which is called: emotionally mediated brotherhood

The nationalism itself arises from the primary emotional attachment to the country and culture and from the depth of antiquity, the Macedonian people holded the need for a constituting and organizing in their own political collective, through their community living.

The acceptation of this need is the basic condition for the emergence of the Macedonian constitutionalism today.
The emergence of the ancient Macedonian state is a precursor to this need and being as a model of a single centralized state is crucially important for the Macedonian constitutionalism.
Not only for unveiling of the old legitimacy of the state and statehood of the Macedonian people, but also for discovering the meaning of his existence.

For me personally every person belonging into the same (Macedonian) emotionally mediated brotherhood can be the Indigenous Macedonian equally.

Thank you for a clear and concise answer Bratot. You are the only person to answer me without getting too bothered about this topic on-hand and asking me questions in return. I will definitely check out Shafer's book.

[Vangelovski]

TM,

You only provided your definition of indigenous in post 33 and my question was directly in response to that.

[TrueMacedonian]

Vangelovski I will ask you a question right back then. Can you provide evidence that todays Macedonians are, to the definition I provided above for 'indigenous', aboriginals?

[makedonin]

I see nationalism as processed of reunion through education to fight the common enemy. Education processes the reunion of similar tribes with similar cultural character that live on certain theritory. If there is no education, there will be no nation and no national state. To that comes the common enemy of those tribes which forces them to reunite and seek reunion through education.

Take Germany for instance. On the theritorry of modern Germany there were many Fürsten (Prince, Rulers) , they fought between them self and killed them selfs off.

That was until Napoleon came and they united against the new common enemy. The new education system came into being after that and had the task to build the common german language (hoch Deutsch) and process union of Germany.

[TrueMacedonian]

I see nationalism as processed of reunion through education to fight the common enemy. Education processes the reunion of similar tribes with similar cultural character that live on certain theritory. If there is no education, there will be no nation and no national state. To that comes the common enemy of those tribes which forces them to reunite and seek reunion through education.

Take Germany for instance. On the theritorry of modern Germany there were many Fürsten (Prince, Rulers) , they fought between them self and killed them selfs off.

That was until Napoleon came and they united against the new common enemy. The new education system came into being after that and had the task to build the common german language (hoch Deutsch) and process union of Germany.

Ernest Gellner discusses this in his book Nations and Nationalism Makedonin. Have you read it by chance?

[makedonin]

Ernest Gellner discusses this in his book Nations and Nationalism Makedonin. Have you read it by chance?

No TM. I haven't heard about the book till today!

That opinion is my own observation and reasoning. It may be his as well, which I find interesting.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski I will ask you a question right back then. Can you provide evidence that todays Macedonians are, to the definition I provided above for 'indigenous', aboriginals?

Well, according to your definition an indigenous population is:

originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native. Aboriginal.

As far as I can tell, there is no other region or country in the world from which we can claim ancestry other than Macedonia.

Further, as far as I can tell, no other country or society contains Macedonian culture or is characteristic of Macedonian culture (with the exception of places that the diaspora has taken it).

[TrueMacedonian]

So you can't pinpoint anything of our 'indigenous culture' with any evidence?

[aleksandrov]

So you don't have evidence.

Evidence of what? What exactly are you trying to prove or disprove? What is it that you have evidence of?