Macedonian Nationalism

[TrueMacedonian]

These two concepts do not need to be mutually exclusive. What indigenous culture do you know of that has not "evolved generation to generation into what it is today'?

It's more complex than what it looks like. At what point in any nations history do we know when, pre-national of course, culture has been either evicted through political/religious institutions, and etc, or has actually evolved without inhibition?

The term "indigenous" is itself a flawed concept if we consider the melting pot of cultures and a fusion through migrations. At what point is accuracy of this supposed "indigenous culture" defined? Or does it become theory only?

[TrueMacedonian]

Not wanting to steal DimkoPiperkatas thunder from the thread

Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > General Discussions
Why do we post so many topics about Greeks?

I have posted here as the name of the above thread doesn’t seem quite right.

I just wanted to ask one question.

If as RTG says
Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > General Discussions
Why do we post so many topics about Greeks?
Greece represents our biggest threat to maintaining our identity in the world arena.
Greece does this by attempting to trivialise and denigrate our identity.

And SoM says
Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > General Discussions
Why do we post so many topics about Greeks?
In answer to the original question, the quantity of topics about Greeks is a direct response to the quantity of propaganda that they criminally spread against the Macedonians to their own people and the rest of the world. We must respond to their stupidity and lies, and we will meet them at every challenge, and win this fight.

Then isn’t the core question with regards to our identity are we

1. direct decedents of the Macedonians of Alexanders time or

2. were the Macedonians of Alexanders time originally something different to us and our ancestors were newcomers who either mixed with these ancient Macedonians to produce us and if so when and if they were something different then who were they kin to or

3. were superseded by our ancestors and if so when. Was this action complete or did it force the ancient Macedonians south or out.

These are pretty much the only options.

In general the Greeks assert
1. the ancient Macedonians were something different to our ancestors and that they were kin to the ancient Greeks.

2. They further assert that they are the direct decedents of the ancient Greeks and as the ancient Macedonians were there kin then they also are the decedents of the ancient Macedonians.

3. The so called concession they are making is to acknowledge that our ancestors may have mix with some of the ancient Macedonians to produce us and as such we are a kind of Macedonian or

4. Our ancestors have been there so long we have become a kind of Macedonian with minimal mixing in either case we are a kind of Macedonian hence the demand for a qualifier beit Northern ect.

Does it not seem obvious that to conclusively answer these questions a timeline needs to be established with evidence we are Macedonians beginning with modern times working backwards to Alexanders ancient Macedonians whom both sides seem to agree were Macedonians. A shorter answer would be to establish the ancient Macedonians were not kin to the Greeks. The obvious dilemma to this is the lack of physical written evidence due to the supposed no written Macedonian alphabet but nonetheless as can be found on MTO there is much evidence to support the Macedonian case.

It seems to me that the Greeks have been able to peddle their lies unabated because the Macedonians have never been free to counter until now and also because the west has been in cahoots with the Greeks. Is it not possible to collate and present another inconvenient truth to the world. When they have no answer to the truth it defeats any name negotiations and posses at least a serious question about the rights of Macedonians in the occupied lands if not further as to what is to be done to land that is clearly foreign occupied.

Some have questioned do we need to prove a link to Alexanders day. This is the only accepted by all time that the people were Macedonians.

OziMak would you like to start this timeline out from modern to ancient times? I think it would be enough to start it from the independence of the Republic of Macedonia and work back from there.

[Soldier of Macedon]

TM,

Here is my opinion. Macedonian culture has its origins in ancient times, and has evolved generation to generation into what it is today. A part of this evolution would be the inclusion and integration of foreign elements, and also the refinement or alteration of existing elements to suit current circumstances. Macedonia's history is larger than one individual, our link to Alexander isn't all that makes us Macedonians, as being Macedonians ensures us of that link in any case.

I believe that the Macedonian spirit has always been alive in Macedonia and the greater surrounding regions, and, when the circumstances were favourable throughout the centuries, this spirit would manifest itself in a gradually consolidated movement that would eventually lead to the rejuvination of the Macedonian identity. However, this did not always take place in Macedonia 'proper', as demonstrated by the Macedonia Theme in western Thrace. Another consideration is the local developments in Macedonia 'proper' where actions were carried out by Macedonians under non-Macedonian political names, these cannot be discounted in favour of events that did carry the Macedonian name outside of Macedonia 'proper'. We have to look at the collective, objectively, but there is certainly a case to argue in favour of some sort of logical and probable continuity in line with the theory of evolving culture from ancient times till now. This, however, will need to be applied to many of our neighbours also (where applicable), that is why a complete look at Balkan history will prove beneficial also.

[TrueMacedonian]

TM,

Here is my opinion. Macedonian culture has its origins in ancient times, and has evolved generation to generation into what it is today. A part of this evolution would be the inclusion and integration of foreign elements, and also the refinement or alteration of existing elements to suit current circumstances. Macedonia's history is larger than one individual, our link to Alexander isn't all that makes us Macedonians, as being Macedonians ensures us of that link in any case.

I believe that the Macedonian spirit has always been alive in Macedonia and the greater surrounding regions, and, when the circumstances were favourable throughout the centuries, this spirit would manifest itself in a gradually consolidated movement that would eventually lead to the rejuvination of the Macedonian identity. However, this did not always take place in Macedonia 'proper', as demonstrated by the Macedonia Theme in western Thrace. Another consideration is the local developments in Macedonia 'proper' where actions were carried out by Macedonians under non-Macedonian political names, these cannot be discounted in favour of events that did carry the Macedonian name outside of Macedonia 'proper'. We have to look at the collective, objectively, but there is certainly a case to argue in favour of some sort of logical and probable continuity in line with the theory of evolving culture from ancient times till now. This, however, will need to be applied to many of our neighbours also (where applicable), that is why a complete look at Balkan history will prove beneficial also.

I agree with most of what you wrote SoM. I don't agree with your last sentence. There was plenty of social engineering going on in our neighbors backyards and there is plenty on the table about them already. Even the Serbs and their myths of the battle of Kosovo and how they have attatched this one Christian event as part of a great Serbian rising when Macedonians, Albanians, Vlachs, and even Bulgarians fought in this battle as well. No need to get into it about the Greeks today and how they came about. The problem with nationalism is that it takes on a greater role than it should. Too many questions are left un-answered and too many questions haven't even been asked.

[Soldier of Macedon]

TM, you don't agree that the same allowances need to be applied to our neighbours, at least some of them? I find it hard to agree with the notion that we are the only one's with a culture that has continuously evovled throughout the centuries.

[TrueMacedonian]

With the exception of the Vlachs and the Romanians I don't know if there is enough evidence out there to support our neighbors claims. Bulgaria quite possibly. But how can anyone really tell. Where is the evidence? And how did the process take place for this culture to evolve? At what extent are the Albanians actually culturally descended from the ancient Illyrians?

[Soldier of Macedon]

You raise an interesting point. What evidence is there to support our claims that our neighbours don't have for themselves?

[TrueMacedonian]

You raise an interesting point. What evidence is there to support our claims that our neighbours don't have for themselves?

The evidence we do have is from Macedonians referring to their country as Macedonia. This evidence is scant unfortunately but it shows that people were aware of where they were and not limited to the village or town they lived in. The best example is from the migration of Macedonians to Romania (Timis) in the mid-fourteenth century where they called their village "Macedonia". These people still live in Macedonia and have their own cultural center there.
Another thing that we have evidence of is this here - http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ma...onianLion.html

but this would even need the following questions asked;

When did the Lion become an important symbol for Macedonians in the middle ages?
How did the Lion become the Macedonian Coat of Arms?
How well known was the Lion legend amongst all Macedonians in the middle ages?

[iskra]

I think that the scantiness of the evidence is a big problem too. It makes it hard to know how many people thought what about anything. We should not worry too much about judging people in past by the standards of modern nationalism. I think that if we accept that Macedonians are today a reality that cannot be undermined by whatever is found in history then we can all feel more comfortable about talking honestly in our historical discussions.

Sometimes some people are scared to ask questions or post information they have found etc. because they feel they will be called a "traitor" or something like that if it puts into question the issue of direct continuity etc.

But if we start from the premise that Macedonians are today a reality that cannot be questioned irrespective of what is coming out of honest historical discussions then I think those threads would improve enormously, become much more productive and comradely places.

After all history should be about trying to find out about all the different social realities of the past so we can have a better idea of how we got here. That would not make us less Macedonian and like Risto said, we are the product of all the things that came before us, we should not be ashamed of that or try to hide it.

[Pelister]

Nationalism isn't a recent thing,. its been around since about the 16th century I think.

I believe Macedonian nationalism has been around a lot longer than we give it credit for.

What separates Macedonian nationalism from Greek nationalism, is this. The New Greek couldn't accept people they way they found them. Greek nationalism was about radically altering the cultural landscape. Macedonian nationalism, was about accurately reflecting what was already there. Greek nationalism is a discontinuity, whereas Macedonian nationalism is really just an evolution of the same people into another form of governmant.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I wouldn't even rate the 'nationalism' of most Greeks with any validity because most of them are plastic Greeks that have non-Greek ancestors. There was no evolution, there was simply a sharp and rude break from what they were, to what they became.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The evidence we do have is from Macedonians referring to their country as Macedonia. This evidence is scant unfortunately but it shows that people were aware of where they were and not limited to the village or town they lived in. The best example is from the migration of Macedonians to Romania (Timis) in the mid-fourteenth century where they called their village "Macedonia". These people still live in Macedonia and have their own cultural center there.
Another thing that we have evidence of is this here - http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ma...onianLion.html

but this would even need the following questions asked;

When did the Lion become an important symbol for Macedonians in the middle ages?
How did the Lion become the Macedonian Coat of Arms?
How well known was the Lion legend amongst all Macedonians in the middle ages?

I hear ya bro, good questions, and good topic, will contribute further later.

[Pelister]

Your onto something there TM. Macedonians in the middle ages ... We virtually know nothing about them. There needs to be some kind of a study of Macedonians in Rennaissance historical thought because it seems alot of the stuff coming out about Macedonia during the middle ages is Latin/Italian.

[TrueMacedonian]

Pelister this is some of the scanty evidence available - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...read.php?t=794

I believe Macedonian nationalism has been around a lot longer than we give it credit for.

Well Macedonian nationalism as we know it today was due to Macedonians like Delchev, Misirkov, Pulevski and etc. Before them the evidence is really slim. There is a reason why these men are so important to Macedonia's history. Misirkov especially who advocated the further cultural and national development of Macedonians.

[aleksandrov]

...The term "indigenous" is itself a flawed concept if we consider the melting pot of cultures and a fusion through migrations. At what point is accuracy of this supposed "indigenous culture" defined? Or does it become theory only?

What definition of 'indigenous' are you relying on?

Here is one:

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&defl=en&q=define:Indigenous+culture&sa=X&ei=aRtHTNZcx6tx_LWFtQ8&ved=0CBoQkAE

What, according to you, is the geographical region with which ethnic Macedonians have the earliest known historical connection?