Macedonian Nationalism

[Bratot]

I edited my previous post with specific cites of the links I provided, even though you barely deserve such treatman and as I said already, irrespectively of your efforts to save some face in this thread the arguments are visible to everyone.

If you want to interpret this as my 'exit strategy' than I may say you have been pretty lucky I did.

Have a nice day.

[aleksandrov]

I'll move onto something else, since you've definitely decided not to answer my last question.

...The other absurdal dimenssion in this claim is the "ethnic" genetical continuity, which will make us not only to lose every possible credibility in our rightful cause but we will enter a contest of new racist ideology.
...

In the second paragraph after saying the above, you wrote:

We do have a genetical continuity, but it's a continuity we share with all of the populations surrounding us in a wider regional meaning.

Is this supposed to mean that it is impossible to have 'ethnic genetical' continuity, but you know that we share 'multiethnic genetical continuity'? Does anybody apart from Bratot think that this proposition makes sense?

Regarding your point about a 'continuity we share with all of the populations surrounding us in a wider regional meaning, I cite one of the articles YOU posted hyperlinks to in my question as to what EVIDENCE you have to support your claims about our mixture of ethnic genetic 'material':

HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA [consider the distinction between this classification and Macedonian 'ethnicity'] typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the ‘‘older’’ Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the ‘‘older’’ Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.

Note that my citation of an article that YOU quoted in support of YOUR theories does not amount to me accepting or rejecting the citation as evidence of anything other than your self-contradictions.

I won't tell you which article it came from, in order to encourage you to actually read all of the articles you have posted hyperlinks to.

[aleksandrov]

I edited my previous post with specific cites of the links I provided..

Your new 'specific cites' not only do not amount to evidence of any of your prior claims about your mixed ethnic 'genetic material', but appear to make no reference to ethnicity whatsoever.

[Silver]

On the other hand, you have shown that your lack of knowledge and inability to discuss in a diplomatic manner perfectly fit the bill of your 'avatar', which displays nothing. I don't appreciate being labelled with your bogus terminology, save it for the other juveniles, or, you can go back to Maknews from whence you came.

To begin with, it would help if you corroborated every "god damn thing" you say.

What cat? What bag? What are you talking about? Can you corroborate what you're talking about? Enough with this cloak and dagger garbage, if you have something to say, then out with it, directly, and back up your assertions.

Who is the "rest" of the peanut gallery you fruit loop? At what point exactly did you start turning into an imbecile, because you certainly weren't one when you first came here? You seem to be running around like some cheerleader, what's your purpose at the MTO? What have YOU contributed to the MTO? I asked you before, do I need to ask you the same question again?

Shaky ground for what? What are you talking about? Is my integrity as a Macedonian being questioned? If so, by whom, you?

Any fool can speak their mind and give their opinion, it takes one with principle and integrity to back up their own statements.

SoM, you are babbling in fine form and I'm not going to follow into a Buktop style line for line, tit for tat spamathon with you. I'd been through it enough times over and over and a long time ago with the 'Greeks' getting stuff like 'Who says, you?' or 'go read a book'. It's a waste of time. If you want to spam me into the backwoods go ahead. Unlike you I don't need an avatar to try and make myself something or someone I clearly am not. My name and my word are enough.

Nothing I say would get anywhere on Maknews and past the delete button. You however would do a lot better when you think that this sort of discussion will help bring us to a consensus or greater understanding. How so? On the one hand you have someone who espouses a Christian (Slav) Tradition for Macedonians beginning in the 5th century AD. On the other hand you have what Macedonians have evolved into naturally of their own determination to whom the former talks down to in the most condescending and patronizing manner possible and refuses to even call some by their chosen name. If you've been around the block yet SoM, tell us what does that remind you of? The two sides are diametrically opposed and always will be. You choose to see this as healthy discussion. I see it as agitation. I'm exposing it and agitating back. I'm not interested in contributing anything to an internet forum other than to stand up for Macedonia.

On another note, you were very quick to jump out against my recommendation that we add a specific clause to the Macedonian Cause thread to clearly indicate that we are neither 'Bulgarian', 'Greek' nor 'Serbian'. What do you see as a more significant anecdote to sum up all of our problems on a practical level than that according to what we've been through the last 100 yrs? And why do you leave certain things open to interpretation that could possibly allow Slav loonies to take over, while we're asleep again, and to negotiate our name and our identity with the West? They are the only ones now besides the government who keep telling us how important the negotiations, EU clubs and NATO are to our future. Finally, in my opinion you are leaving the door open for our name to be changed and our identity to be decided by foreigners according to their interests once again. Of coarse this all assumes that the MTO Macedonian Cause will have some significant value or relevance in the grand scheme of things somewhere down the line.

Have a nice day.

[Bratot]

I'll move onto something else, since you've definitely decided not to answer my last question.



In the second paragraph after saying the above, you wrote:



Is this supposed to mean that it is impossible to have 'ethnic genetical' continuity, but you know that we share 'multiethnic genetical continuity'? Does anybody apart from Bratot think that this proposition makes sense?

Regarding your point about a 'continuity we share with all of the populations surrounding us in a wider regional meaning, I cite one of the articles YOU posted hyperlinks to in my question as to what EVIDENCE you have to support your claims about our mixture of ethnic genetic 'material':



Note that my citation of an article that YOU quoted in support of YOUR theories does not amount to me accepting or rejecting the citation as evidence of anything other than your self-contradictions.

I won't tell you which article it came from, in order to encourage you to actually read all of the articles you have posted hyperlinks to.

Drowning man will clutch at a straw!

If you read exactly as you bolded the text it says: INDIVIDUALS

The same link you think it suits to you have shown exactly the opposite of what you are trying to impose, we DO share the genetic matherial.

The selected INDIVIDUALS from our side doesn't really have to correspond to the selected INDIVIDUALS from the Greek side, we are talking about an SELECTED EXAMPLE.

You will find many other genetical analyses where the result showed close relation among Macedonians and Greeks:

4. Interestingly, the ethnic Macedonians from R. Macedonia* have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that they Macedonians of R.M.* are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some Macedonian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong.
The actual truth is that the ethnic Macedonians from R. of Macedonia are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2122

Have you ever thought what if the examined "Greeks" or "Bulgarians" were actually of Macedonian origin, or vice versa?


The links I provided have sunk your 'big hope' of a question, nevertheless how ignoranmus it was.

Now you can ignore the links I provided and desperately try to diminish your failing.

Your new 'specific cites' not only do not amount to evidence of any of your prior claims about your mixed ethnic* 'genetic material', but appear to make no reference to ethnicity whatsoever.

'Whatsoever', you still continuously humiliate yourself by thinking that you actually make any sense, 'dude', you barely understand what you are talking about, stop when it's a time, show some dignity even when you're wrong.


At least stop inventing theories to fit some of your claims*.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't keep track of many topics or posters here on MTO and thus I can't say for sure..............I know of a couple of MTO members who have expressed such views in full or in part and some of that has been posted here on MTO by myself but I do not wish to escalate this issue any further at this time. So please let sleeping dogs lie as there are more important issues to focus on.

Indigen, I think it suffice to say that the situation has already been escalated and all sorts of accusations seem to be thrown around, yet nobody seems to want to corroborate what they say. If we are to let sleeping dogs lie, then the barking has to stop on all sides.

[Soldier of Macedon]

SoM, you are babbling in fine form.....

The only babbler in this discussion between you and I is the individual who entered the thread in a cheerleader-like manner.

Unlike you I don't need an avatar to try and make myself something or someone I clearly am not. My name and my word are enough.

Your arguments are childish, shallow and irrelevant. Your name is non-existent here (not that it matters) and you have already demonstrated how fickle your 'word' is.

On the one hand you have someone who espouses a Christian (Slav) Tradition for Macedonians beginning in the 5th century AD.

Who has said the above, in the manner you have stated? Or is this another one of your uncorroborated statements that can be added to the growing list?

You choose to see this as healthy discussion. I see it as agitation. I'm exposing it and agitating back.

What sort of agitation? Why are you being so vague with your statements? Come on Silver, tell me the end game here, what is 'their' master plan, what do 'they' have in store for us? How do 'they' intend to realise their aims?

I'm not interested in contributing anything to an internet forum other than to stand up for Macedonia.

How about any constructive contribution that goes towards the development of a theme or topic pertinent to the Macedonian Cause? Or is anything outside of the usual chest-beating not interesting enough for you?

On another note, you were very quick to jump out against my recommendation that we add a specific clause to the Macedonian Cause thread to clearly indicate that we are neither 'Bulgarian', 'Greek' nor 'Serbian'.

Absolutely. When required and in context, stating what we aren't is fine, this could occur during a discussion, in a poem or song, etc. However, constant reference to what we aren't, particularly in a document that is supposed to reflect what we are, is indicative of an inferiority complex, and I don't suffer from that. Do you? Why do you feel the need to acknowledge these oppressors specifically, individually and by name in this document? Have they been our only oppressors during the last 100 years?

What do you see as a more significant anecdote to sum up all of our problems on a practical level than that according to what we've been through the last 100 yrs?

There are other ways to word it without giving undue credit to those that don't deserve it.

And why do you leave certain things open to interpretation that could possibly allow Slav loonies to take over, while we're asleep again, and to negotiate our name and our identity with the West?

If presented solidly, what can be open to interpretation? Who are the "Slav loonies"? How are they going to take over? The very statement of yours that I just quoted is open to interpretation. Are you able to clarify?

Finally, in my opinion you are leaving the door open for our name to be changed and our identity to be decided by foreigners according to their interests once again.

You have demonstrated the (in)validity of both your 'word' and opinion quite markedly as of late. How am I leaving the door open for our name to be changed? How am I allowing foreigners to determine the future of our identity? You may want to sit back for a minute and consolidate whatever it is you are trying to get across, perhaps then you can be more definitive with your assertions and allegations.

[indigen]

Indigen, I think it suffice to say that the situation has already been escalated and all sorts of accusations seem to be thrown around, yet nobody seems to want to corroborate what they say. If we are to let sleeping dogs lie, then the barking has to stop on all sides.

SOM, IMHO, there is enough evidence there for you or anyone else to see the "White (SLAV) Elephant" in the room, as some have already pointed out, and it is up to you whether you choose to see that as enough "evidence" or not. I believe that the "UMD Announcments" thread has some relevant material I posted and in the response/s provided by the concerned party, and from which discussion this thread was probably inspired. Another thread is the one where I and TM had some ("nice") things to say to each other. The evidence is there and it is not my fault if you and others can't (or wont) see it for what it is.

So pochit,
I.

[George S.]

Idigenous Australians ??Apparently when there was a land mass the aborigines waked accross from India to australia 50,000 years ago.They remained like that up to 200 years agoSo virtually what do we mean by indegineous some people consider the tasmanian aborigines as the real indigenous people & not the others.
So with the Macedonian indigenous people unless you check on their dna makeup,over the years there's been intermingling of races etc,etc so the word PURE cannot apply.
But if i or you have Macedonian dna in the blood we can consider ourselves as purely Macedonian.But then there's arguments that will dismiss that it's really not fair on those that live in the macedonian territory who consider themselves as macedonian.
The Greeks knew when they took over in 1913 who the indigenous people were,they were Macedonian & were indigenous people they called them"ENDOPI".Endopi means original settlers.
Despite what other people say & write & smear us with the SLAV prefix we are Macedonians!!

[TrueMacedonian]

Vangelovski said;

Ok, now can you tell us what exactly you are tying to determine with this thread?

Vangelovski all one has to do is go back to page 1 post numero uno.

[TrueMacedonian]

indigen said;

I consider myself as a DIRECT DESCENDANT (i.e. blood, however pure) and inherit (evolving, without excluding other external inputs over time) cultural continuity from the same forbears! Also remember that I played knuckle bones game as a child, which Aleksandar III Makedonski and other Macedonian children of his time also used to play! :-)

How sure of this are you? How do you know exactly if you even have 2 drops of this blood in you? Or is it a guesstimate you're working on?

[TrueMacedonian]

Sliver said;

I wasn't intending on swooping into this thread started by what I see is a Bulgaroman and his pal, most likely a Vlach who worries about his genes, but there's a reason for everything!

This line of topic, and I believe is the intent, is another sneaky way to keep Macedonians divided, unresolved, arguing and in a broader sense dysfunctional. Some things just never change!

Although its highly unlikely, let me try to make something clear for you TM, Bratot and whoever else. Oh, and TM since you indicate certain people on this forum insinuate that modern Macedonians have been claiming an indigenous culture blah blah blah, are you in any way including my comments in an MPO thread? Of coarse you'll never admit to it but I suspect those particular comments upset you and your friends in the MPO for sure. Well good, HAHAHA I'm glad!

Ummm who are you? Have we talked before or something? If I don't remember you then it's because you didn't make any type of impression on me.

[George S.]

In regards to the Gaida is probably the influence from the celts.Ssince they invaded the balkans people have been using the gajda.
The oro dance is as old as Macedonia.A lot of cultures dance in the circle,macedonian,lebanese indian hebrew orah etc.

[Rogi]

You know the Iranians claim descent from Cyrus the Great and the ancient Persians?

In 2003, Nobel Peace Prize winner, Shirin Ebadi, said in her speech "...I am an Iranian. A descendent of Cyrus The Great..."

I wonder, why doesn't she, and all other Iranians, have to justify that type of claim?

Their land has seen just as many conquerors and settlers, etc since the time of Cyrus the Great as the Macedonian land has since the time of Alexander the Great.







There have been about 75 generations that have passed since 300BC.

This means, that for any one of us to exist today, we have billions of ancestors (parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc) since the year 300BC.

So to claim that every single person that we descend from has been a 'pure-blooded' Macedonian and thus claiming a pure-blooded Macedonian descent is perhaps unrealistic (you'll never know if there is at least one Thracian, Ilyrian, Roman, etc somewhere in the mix), particularly when factoring in the turbulent history of Macedonia throughout the last 2,300 years. It is also recorded in history that many women from all over Alexander's empire were sent to Macedonia by their fathers, to have children by Macedonian men, in the hope that they would be like Alexander; so 'purity' was already questionable by the generation after Alexander and indeed Alexander the Great himself was not a 'pure-blooded Macedonian' like his half-brother.

But I don't think that anyone here is claiming an absolute 'pure-blooded' descent from the ancient Macedonians. Rather, the claim is that we do descend from the ancient Macedonians, the extent of which is not measured, and not particularly relevant, the point is that actual ancestral connection.



Alternatively, to claim that not one of our ancestors (ancient) was Macedonian, is equally as absurd, if not more, particularly when there is no historical record for any point in history which tells us that the Macedonians were completely wiped out and we, the Macedonians, are the only ethnic group that is unique to Macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

In regards to the Gaida is probably the influence from the celts.Ssince they invaded the balkans people have been using the gajda.
The oro dance is as old as Macedonia.A lot of cultures dance in the circle,macedonian,lebanese indian hebrew orah etc.

The Celts were living along the Danube, to its south and north, interacting with both Thracians and Illyrians, long before they began to attack the Roman Empire in the Balkans and subsequently migrate westwards to Britain.

A form of the circle dance may be practiced in India and even China, but Macedonia is neither of those two places, nor did her people come from those places. Trying to prove something ancient beyond a reasonable doubt today is near impossible, the best we can do on focus on the balanace of probabilities. And, on the balance of probabilities where it concerns Macedonia, it is more logical to assume that both the 'gajda' and the 'oro' come from Macedonia and the Balkan region, as opposed to India, Lebanon or China.