Macedonian Nationalism

[Bratot]

This kind of threads may provide more 'aseptic' approach, which is rather positive than negative thing. (as well as the thread about Macedonian Cause)

There isn't anything more destructive than supporting dogmas of Macedonian history/identity.

Because Macedonian history remains largely unstudied and very often misunderstood by the Macedonians themself has left open space for the hostile attempts to refute its validity.

That's why we should not let ourself be ill-prepared or underequipped with the essential arguments if we don't want to be compromised.
The healthy nationalism on solid grounds is crucial for healthy national ideology and this will help us to overcome the ideological traps set by our neighbors.

Overbidding more and more distant historical criteria for ourselfs to be fulfilled in order to justify our origin is exactly what the Greeks or the Bulgarians want us to do.

That's why we should draw some permanent contoures in our national ideology based on firmly established historical arguments.

I see the discussion of TM directed for this purpose and I think he willingly risked to be labelled by some of you but with a hope to achieve a greater value.

[indigen]

Bratot

It's easer to label everyone who does not fit some of yours conceptions.

The "pot" calling others black! :-)

The "gene purity" was used several times on other threads by Indigen and such have been also encouraged by other members.

Please provide a quote that I ever claimed what your slandering cheap shot implies. Judging by your incomprehensible ramblings, I would say that you fit the bill of a comprehension-challenged person. That is just my opinion, based on the evidence I have observed on your performance on MTO!

However I see pretty much destructive trend going on here when there our personal opinions does not match some of you always tend to etiquette the opposite opinion as "ramkovist, gligorovist, grkoman, bulgaroman", etc. etc.

What would you call someone who espouses the ideologies that fit the bill for such a definition?

Everyone have to understand that such belief polarization is not productive for either of us.

Truth hurts but we must call a spade a spade if we are to ever get out of the shit-hole we have sunk into.

[indigen]

[QUOTE=TrueMacedonian;65490]

Let's review step by step what Pribichevich states so that we can truly grasp this for what it is, not how you and indigen would like it to be;

I did not reply to your original MORONIC post in my history thread because it would have polluted it even more with your idiotic nonsense.

Illyrians = Albanians, Thracians = Vlachs, Hellenes = Grks.

The part that Indigen knowingly left out of the equation because it doesn't help the "indigenous Macedonian cultural theory" he's been sporting;

I don't feel like arguing with a intellectually-challenged CRYPTO-SLAVOMAN but I have not misquoted Pribichevich.

FYI: In the same thread you can observe that I have quoted quite a lot of other authors "SELECTIVELY", as do many others, and as you most likely do, and I don't think it is anything out of the ordinary to do so. M.B. SAKELLARIOU and N.G.L. Hammond are on the first post and surely you don't think that I should be concerned about their pro-Greek and anti-Macedonian positions and avoid quoting the relevant info that aids the Macedonian cause?

Now are you going to tell me more about this black and white stuff or are you going to interpret your own version of what Pribichevich is really saying here?

I am going to tell you to GROW UP!

I suggest you and indigen stop looking at each other since you both are mirror images of each other.

I suggest you stop having homoerotic fantasies and dreaming of smelly dicks!!! You would not want others to get the idea that your are some sort of hard-up little poof, would you? :-)

[makedonin]

I see the discussion of TM directed for this purpose and I think he willingly risked to be labelled by some of you but with a hope to achieve a greater value.

I wonder why the labeling is coming from the absolutists side all the time. Dogma is their chosen way........

The "Lord Sith" and his "apprentist"... welcome to the dark side of the force











*PS the labeling I chose here is deliberate.

[Bratot]

The "pot" calling others black! :-)

Prove your claim or stay black.

Please provide a quote that I ever claimed what your slandering cheap shot implies. Judging by your incomprehensible ramblings, I would say that you fit the bill of a comprehension-challenged person. That is just my opinion, based on the evidence I have observed on your performance on MTO!

Exactly, it's only your biased opinion.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3006&page=10

"I don't know what your concept of "direct' entails but mine only requires indigenous genetic and cultural heritage"

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2422&page=204

These were recent examples, I'm not going to search for each of your post where you provided same claims.

What would you call someone who espouses the ideologies that fit the bill for such a definition?

Your arbitary reflects your mental range, since you allow your self to fit persons you know nothing about in some kind of "definitions" for immature use when you are having a difficult time with your own intelectual performance.


I can only hope you are at least half worthy the people you often label.

Truth hurts but we must call a spade a spade if we are to ever get out of the shit-hole we have sunk into.

It's time to wake up from your wet dream of being our ideological messiah and first try to grew up to our level before you give yourself the freedom of being offensive.

Being noisy in your rude attitude toward few members in here doesn't secure your opinion of being totally wrong about it.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

I understand English is not your first language, but are you using google to translate your posts from Macedonian into English? If you are, it isn't working - your posts are not comprehensible. You may be more effective at getting your point across by simply posting in Macedonian.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Your second sentence above indicates that you may not have quite understood the purpose of what I wrote. What I, along with Tom, RtG and a few others have posted encourages critical assessment of the flawed premises and assumptions on which this topic has been founded by the thread-starter. Without that, any 'development' of the topic would be fundamentally flawed and potentially counterproductive for the Macedonian cause of liberty and justice.

You're right, no further 'development' will transpire, not in this thread full of semantics. I leave it to you gentlemen.

[indigen]

Prove your claim or stay black.

Easy, I have never claimed 'gene purity', which you accuse me of! Thus the POT (You) IS BLACK! :-)

Exactly, it's only your biased opinion.

No, it is based on observed and verifiable (to me) facts!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...t=3006&page=10

"I don't know what your concept of "direct' entails but mine only requires indigenous genetic and cultural heritage"

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2422&page=204

These were recent examples, I'm not going to search for each of your post where you provided same claims.

I am sure you will NOT find any claims to 'gene purity' by myself anywhere and only YOUR LACK OF COMPREHENSION IS the cause of all such slanderous cheap-shots!

I don't know what your concept of "direct' entails but mine only requires indigenous genetic and cultural heritage, which without a doubt exists in present day Macedonians! Thus I can confidently state/claim that Macedonians of today, in the main, ARE DIRECT DESCENDANTS of OUR GLORIOUS AND LEGENDARY ANCIENT MACEDONIAN PREDECESSORS! There is no claim to blood "purity" or "unbroken" statehood...

We have GENETIC CONTINUITY and thus are DIRECT DESCENDANTS (and nobody is saying pure anything!) of our great and illustrious ancestors, without a doubt...

I am not going to waste time in debating with you because it is highly unproductive but I just want to set the record straight on the false claims made by you attributing things I never said or claimed.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

I understand English is not your first language, but are you using google to translate your posts from Macedonian into English? If you are, it isn't working - your posts are not comprehensible. You may be more effective at getting your point across by simply posting in Macedonian.

On which part exactly, I'm not comprehensible?

I'm not using Google translator when posting and if something is not understandable enough for you please quote me and I will try to provide a more descriptive or even Macedonian translation.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

Most of your posts are hard to understand - there are so many gramatical errors that they lose all meaning. I think you would be able to better put your views accross if you post in Macedonian.

[Bratot]

Easy, I have never claimed 'gene purity', which you accuse me of! Thus the POT (You) IS BLACK! :-)

No, it is based on observed and verifiable (to me) facts!

I am sure you will NOT find any claims to 'gene purity' by myself anywhere and only YOUR LACK OF COMPREHENSION IS the cause of all such slanderous cheap-shots!

I am not going to waste time in debating with you because it is highly unproductive but I just want to set the record straight on the false claims made by you attributing things I never said or claimed.

You are limiting factor for yourself, not my lack of comprehension since I wasn't the only one to have that opinion and for which you have been asked to clarify precizely couple of times.(not by me)

The only reason you modified your claim with those additional explanations was only because of the lack of acceptance of your claim by the most of the members here and your credibility as well.

The gene continuity is not ethnical continuity.
You are trying to use the portion of variety of genes as a claim of unbroken identity marker.

The genetical matherial we have is not defined by the political borders but it's the shared genetical matherial by all of the Balkan peoples.

We may be equally "direct" descendats of Peonians, Illyrians, Thracians etc.
Claiming some "direct" lineage from the ancient Macedonians is in accordance with Greek propaganda.

Can you provide you DIRECT line from your ancient grandparents?

No one on this earth can provide direct descendancy from ancient times since it's unacknowledged connection.

You make no biological sense!

Your laughable claims of genetical continuty of a wider geographycal population in order to invent your self a right to call your self - DIRECT descendant of a specific ethnic group is pretty big nonsense, if not silliness in it's purest form.

I can only conclude that you are deffinatelly not acquainted with the necessary knowledge on this subject nor you're able to make any difference between the real definitions of the terminology you are using.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Most of your posts are hard to understand - there are so many gramatical errors that they lose all meaning. I think you would be able to better put your views accross if you post in Macedonian.

I think you will have to get used to it and I'm trying to improve my English all the time.

Anyway, it would be useful if you could quote me when you cannot understand something.

I will really appreciate it Vangelovski.

[aleksandrov]

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...t=3006&page=10

"I don't know what your concept of "direct' entails but mine only requires indigenous genetic and cultural heritage"...

Bratot,

Is this your idea of proof that Indigen has alleged continued 'gene purity' between the ancient Macedonians of Alexander the Great's days and today's indigenous Macedonians?

What does the word 'purity' mean to you?

What the hell does 'gene purity' mean? Who has it?

If you had an indigenous Indian father and an indigenous Japanese mother, and you considered yourself an indigenous Indian, or said that you have indigenous Indian heritage, would that mean you are claiming some sort of Indian gene purity?

Hypothetically, if I had evidence of a family tree linking me to Alexander the Great or one of his Macedonian generals, would that entitle me to say that I have ancient Macedonian heritage? If your answer is yes, does that automatically mean I have indigenous Macedonian 'gene purity'? Did the ancient Macedonians themselves have any sort of 'gene purity'?

It appears that your conception of ethnicity and 'genetic purity' may be based on long outdated theories of race and human civilization, which dominated even Western academia until at least the mid 20th century, but have since been widely discredited by progressive scholars and thinkers. Unfortunately, it appears that Balkan academia has been quite slow to catch up, which is why Balkan societies either fall for self-destructing experiments in 'multiethnic cohabitation' that necessarily involve ethnic discrimination and segregation, like the Ohrid Framework Agreement and the current arrangements in Bosnia, or they go to the alternative racist extreme of forced ethnic assimilation and/or 'cleansing', as applied in countries like Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and even Croatia.

I suggest you do some internet research on current Australian Aborigines. Try and email some of the Aboriginal activists with the question whether their (now widely accepted) claim to indigenous status is based on some sort of 'gene purity'. You might find the results quite enlightening.

[Big Bad Sven]

Bratot,

I suggest you do some internet research on current Australian Aborigines. Try and email some of the Aboriginal activists with the question whether their (now widely accepted) claim to indigenous status is based on some sort of 'gene purity'. You might find the results quite enlightening.

I think thats a really interesting point, about you have to be "pure" to be "indigenous".

Most oforiginals in australia all have some sort of white or asian blood in them. Its only the aboriginals in the desert communities that you can say are "pure" - and thats a very small percentage of them.

You have aboriginals in Tasmania that are completly white skin and red hair - obviously they are more white then aboriginal but they are still allowed to be called aboriginals and they think of themselvs as nothing but ancient aboriginals.

I dont think you have to be "genetically pure" or exactly trace your family tree to alexander the great to claim alexander the great as a macedonian hero and symbol.

[aleksandrov]

I think thats a really interesting point, about you have to be "pure" to be "indigenous".

Most oforiginals in australia all have some sort of white or asian blood in them. Its only the aboriginals in the desert communities that you can say are "pure" - and thats a very small percentage of them.

You have aboriginals in Tasmania that are completly white skin and red hair - obviously they are more white then aboriginal but they are still allowed to be called aboriginals and they think of themselvs as nothing but ancient aboriginals.

I dont think you have to be "genetically pure" or exactly trace your family tree to alexander the great to claim alexander the great as a macedonian hero and symbol.

Another point to add, which relates more specifically to TM's questioning of the indigenous Macedonian ethnicity on the basis that Macedonian ethnic culture of today is ALLEGEDLY predominantly Christian and has very little to do with pre-Christian culture, is that many (maybe a majority, but I am not sure) Australian Aboriginals today are Christians, live Western lifestyles that have been effectively forced upon them by a system established by British colonialists and other European settlers, speak only English and practice very little of the indigenous beliefs and cultural traditions that were common to their ancestors even 200 years ago, let alone 2,000 or 40,000 years ago. Yet they still consider themselves indigenous Australians and are accepted as such! Now, I will let others think about what are the defining elements of their indigenous status. Carefully considering one of the definitions of the word 'indigenous' that I posted earlier in this thread, as well as a similar definition which TM subsequently posted but was completely unable to apply to his questioning of the indigenous Macedonian ethnicity, might help.