Why such a virulent hate towards anything Macedonian?

[Risto the Great]

Your third point is a joke and has no relevance. If you need me to explain, you are further gone than I thought.

The rest has an answer, but the Hawaii waves are calling me .... makes me feel 80 years younger.

[El Bre]

Thirdly, there are many immigrants in many EU countries and their numbers vary a lot. I do not believe that all EU countries registered those immigrants as minorities. In order to see things in perspective we should compare. Since many claim that Greece is behaving outside the norm, the question needs to be answered: what is the norm? (for recognising minorities

There are two different issues that need to be examined here and you appear to be lumping the two together. The first is the issue of indigenous minorities and the other is the issue of what is a relatively newer phenominon for most European Countries, the economigrant. Europe has traditionally been a giver but has now become a taker, because these new immigrants come in all colors and religions, monotheistic / "ethnically homogenous" countries like Greece are having a rough go because these people are more difficult to hide than the indigenous peoples of the past.

[Giorikas]

There are two different issues that need to be examined here and you appear to be lumping the two together. The first is the issue of indigenous minorities and the other is the issue of what is a relatively newer phenominon for most European Countries, the economigrant. Europe has traditionally been a giver but has now become a taker, because these new immigrants come in all colors and religions, monotheistic / "ethnically homogenous" countries like Greece are having a rough go because these people are more difficult to hide than the indigenous peoples of the past.

Fair enough for the sake of argument. So can someone give me a figure ?

[Giorikas]

Your third point is a joke and has no relevance. If you need me to explain, you are further gone than I thought.

The rest has an answer, but the Hawaii waves are calling me .... makes me feel 80 years younger.

Look Risto the Great; I called you an old timer once. I was referring to your time behind the PC actually. So let's just drop that point. Enjoy the waves and try not to think too much about Greeks. Your obsession must the biggest joke of all. I feel responsible

[Soldier of Macedon]

My 'problem' is this: We have no way to know how many feel Macedonian in Greece. I have for some time now tried to find an answer here. I acknowledge that those people really exist in our borders to some extent. I acknowledge that they hold Greek passports but do not feel Greek. What number are we talking about? I have no clue..........................In other words, can we make the discussion a bit less abstract for clarity sake?

It can be accepted in clarity when the racist government of Greece finally allows its citizens to delcare their ethnic and linguistic origins on a national census. Clarity doesn't come from a delusional 97% ethnic "purity" claim that is criminally promoted by the modern Greek state. As I stated earlier, in which there is a common agreement from your end despite all the chatter, the number of votes does not equal the number of Macedonians, people vote for various reasons and not always ethnic sentiment, particularly in a state which has spared no expense to deny the ethnic identity of its minority citizens (For example 97%, its the 21st century, allow your citizens to voice their opinions on an official basis).

Thirdly, there are many immigrants in many EU countries and their numbers vary a lot. I do not believe that all EU countries registered those immigrants as minorities. In order to see things in perspective we should compare. Since many claim that Greece is behaving outside the norm, the question needs to be answered: what is the norm? (for recognising minorities)

What is the norm? If a person decides to declare as a Macedonian, wether in Greece, Germany or Italy, that decision should be honoured and respected. More importantly however, the Macedonians in Greece are not immigrants, they are older inhabitants than most of the new Greeks in Macedonia that came from the south and east 80 years ago, hence deeming your comparative example as irrelevant in this case.

I want to state clearly again that no goverment should hinder any form of self expression. We didn't like it when Turks did it to our Greek minority, so we should not do it ourselves to others.

So you clearly state that the Greek government should not hinder the Macedonians in their pursuit for recognition and self-determination in respect to the Macedonian language and identity?

[Giorikas]

It can be accepted in clarity when the racist government of Greece finally allows its citizens to delcare their ethnic and linguistic origins on a national census. Clarity doesn't come from a delusional 97% ethnic "purity" claim that is criminally promoted by the modern Greek state. As I stated earlier, in which there is a common agreement from your end despite all the chatter, the number of votes does not equal the number of Macedonians, people vote for various reasons and not always ethnic sentiment, particularly in a state which has spared no expense to deny the ethnic identity of its minority citizens (For example 97%, its the 21st century, allow your citizens to voice their opinions on an official basis).

What is the norm? If a person decides to declare as a Macedonian, wether in Greece, Germany or Italy, that decision should be honoured and respected. More importantly however, the Macedonians in Greece are not immigrants, they are older inhabitants than most of the new Greeks in Macedonia that came from the south and east 80 years ago, hence deeming your comparative example as irrelevant in this case.

So you clearly state that the Greek government should not hinder the Macedonians in their pursuit for recognition and self-determination in respect to the Macedonian language and identity?

Actually, just out of curiousity, where did you get that from that Greece claims 97% ethnic purity? Since apart from claiming it, they seem to be actually promoting it, kindly point out where you read that. I have never heard of those claims.

I agree with and follow your logic regarding those votes. It proves nothing really, but can just give us some idea. But then again .. It does disprove that Greece neglects its democratic obligations, because there is a party that can represent those who feel Macedonian. That's contrary to what many claim (about their treatment) here and it would be fair to acknowledge that. Also, it makes me doubt seriously whether the situation is that bad for those who feel Macedonian in Greece. It is common belief here that Macedonians are severely oppressed in Greece. Even now anno 2008. Now here's a chance to do something about that, show your numbers and make a clear statement. That makes me seriously doubt about those huge numbers (that no-one seems to be able to tell me anyway)

To summarize: I have no proof of any sort of oppression of Macedonians, no proof of any Greek government claiming 97% ethnic purity, no numbers. On the other hand, we see a party that represents Macedonians with hardly any votes, we see party members proclaiming their Macedonian conciousness on statewide TV.

The norm: I already agreed with you. We should respect how anyone declares himself. Now how many of those do we need to make a distinct group a minority (regardless whether you consider them indiginous or not). Is 1 person enough ? 2 ? 10 ? 5,000 ? How do other countries handle that in the relevant area (the EU). In other words, what is the norm for doing that in the EU so that Greece as ab-normal country can be compared to that. Does Greece have any obligations or are you asking for a favour?

Apart from that (but we can leave that aside for the sake of argument) I obviously disagree with you that Greeks are merely the newcomers and indiginous Macedonians are the 'originals'. The influx of Minor Asia Greeks (indeed newcomers) does not mean that there was no Greek presence. How do I know this ? We have been counted by others then Greeks. By Turkish for example and we have been counted as Greeks, not as Christians. And you have surprisingly not been counted by those you consider to be one of your best allies. But we should put that difference of opinion aside for a second maybe.

I clearly state that no state (not just the Greek) should hinder with the process of self identification of any-one. Those people should not be touched for calling themselves anything they want. Greece will not actively support you though. That would be too much too ask since Greece has an opposing view of who Macedonians really are. So if you want to open your churches for example, you should not be obstructed in any way but do not expect financial support.
But your country has shown Greece the right example in how you deal with those church matters vis ŕ vis the Serbian Orthodox Church....you closed tsome of their churches and put their leader in jail on pseudo charges.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Actually, just out of curiousity, where did you get that from that Greece claims 97% ethnic purity? Since apart from claiming it, they seem to be actually promoting it, kindly point out where you read that. I have never heard of those claims.

Of course you have, don't pretend not to know what you know for such a point of discussion, not a good trait.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2007/90178.htm

The country has an area of 81,935 square miles and a population of 10.9 million. The government did not keep statistics on religious groups. An estimated 97 percent of citizens identified themselves as Greek Orthodox. The other 3 percent of the population was composed of Old Calendarist Orthodox, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, Protestants, the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints, Scientologists, Jews, Baha'is, Hare Krishnas, and followers of polytheistic Hellenic religions.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gr.html

Ethnic groups:
population: Greek 93%, other (foreign citizens) 7% (2001 census)
note: percents represent citizenship, since Greece does not collect data on ethnicity
Religions:
Greek Orthodox 98%, Muslim 1.3%, other 0.7%
Languages:
Greek 99% (official), other 1% (includes English and French)

Greece does not allow its citizens to express their ethnic identity in an official census, yet due to the Christian Orthodox component amounting to 97-8% of the population, it is shamelessy promoted as the actual 'Greek' population of the state. Does that not constitute a blatant abuse and twisting of the facts?

........It does disprove that Greece neglects its democratic obligations, because there is a party that can represent those who feel Macedonian. That's contrary to what many claim (about their treatment) here and it would be fair to acknowledge that. Also, it makes me doubt seriously whether the situation is that bad for those who feel Macedonian in Greece.......

No it doesn't disprove anything, the party (or any other Macedonian party) needs time to gain the trust of a people who have been lied to for decades by the Greek state they unfortunately find themselves in. There is nothing to doubt my friend, if you are going to use this as your benchmark to measure the Macedonian component of the Greek population then you must be equally in acceptance where it concerns the 'Hellenic' component, represented by title in its true pagan meaning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece

The ancient Greek religion has also reappeared as Hellenic Neopaganism,[55] with estimates of approximately 2,000 adherents (comprising 0.02% of the general population).

You know what Giorikas, somehow I am finding it hard to believe that the true 'Hellenic' component is as significant given thd poor number of voters. Perhaps they should ask for minority rights as Hellenes in Greece?

The norm: I already agreed with you. We should respect how anyone declares himself..........Does Greece have any obligations or are you asking for a favour?

You tell me, am I asking for a favour or are you contradicting yourself? You begin with expressing your belief that all identities are to be respected yet conclude by practically stating that one must beg for that respect in the form of a favour? Do you have any obligation to respect?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html

http://www.tatsachen-ueber-deutschland.de/en/federal-

There are four national minorities in Germany: the Danish minority, the Friesian ethnic minority in Germany, the German Sinti and Roma and the Sorbs. All four groups come under the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, which Germany ratified in 1997. The minorites’ languages - Danish, North and Sater Friesian, Romany, and Lower and Upper Sorbian – are promoted under the terms of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, which Germany ratified in 1998.

Does the EU state of Germany deny its native citizens their ethnic identity, does it claim all of the western Christians (Protestant or Catholic) as 'Germans' in the same exclusive manner as the Greek state does with its Orthodox population? Why does Greece avoid the ethnic question on its national census'? Why does Greece wrongfully refuse to recognize its ethnic minorities?

.............we have been counted as Greeks, not as Christians. And you have surprisingly not been counted by those you consider to be one of your best allies. But we should put that difference of opinion aside for a second maybe.

One of your so-called best 'allies' against the Macedonians (Brailsford, early 20th century) says that nearly all of the "Greeks" in Macedonia were Vlachs and to a much lesser degree Slavs (Macedonians). If you have sources that speak of ethnic Greeks or ethnic Hellenes as opposed Romaoi/Greeks (East Christians) in Macedonia, feel free to share it.

But your country has shown Greece the right example in how you deal with those church matters vis ŕ vis the Serbian Orthodox Church....you closed tsome of their churches and put their leader in jail on pseudo charges.

Nice of you to throw that one in, perhaps you should (re)visit your own church history (with special attention on your priests), before you pass judgement on a scenario you know next to nothing about. I take it that the Greek government would reward with flowers somebody (an ethnic Greek) who formed a breakaway church, was in cahoots with foreign churches with aims against the Greek church, claimed to be the 'true' archbishop of Athens and caused dissent among the people by attacking the identity of the church and nation? Tsarknias has not claimed anything of the sort, in case you were thinking to jump to another irrelevant comparison.

[Giorikas]

Of course you have, don't pretend not to know what you know for such a point of discussion, not a good trait.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2007/90178.htm

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gr.html

Greece does not allow its citizens to express their ethnic identity in an official census, yet due to the Christian Orthodox component amounting to 97-8% of the population, it is shamelessy promoted as the actual 'Greek' population of the state. Does that not constitute a blatant abuse and twisting of the facts?

No it doesn't disprove anything, the party (or any other Macedonian party) needs time to gain the trust of a people who have been lied to for decades by the Greek state they unfortunately find themselves in. There is nothing to doubt my friend, if you are going to use this as your benchmark to measure the Macedonian component of the Greek population then you must be equally in acceptance where it concerns the 'Hellenic' component, represented by title in its true pagan meaning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece

You know what Giorikas, somehow I am finding it hard to believe that the true 'Hellenic' component is as significant given thd poor number of voters. Perhaps they should ask for minority rights as Hellenes in Greece?

You tell me, am I asking for a favour or are you contradicting yourself? You begin with expressing your belief that all identities are to be respected yet conclude by practically stating that one must beg for that respect in the form of a favour? Do you have any obligation to respect?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html

http://www.tatsachen-ueber-deutschland.de/en/federal-

Does the EU state of Germany deny its native citizens their ethnic identity, does it claim all of the western Christians (Protestant or Catholic) as 'Germans' in the same exclusive manner as the Greek state does with its Orthodox population? Why does Greece avoid the ethnic question on its national census'? Why does Greece wrongfully refuse to recognize its ethnic minorities?


One of your so-called best 'allies' against the Macedonians (Brailsford, early 20th century) says that nearly all of the "Greeks" in Macedonia were Vlachs and to a much lesser degree Slavs (Macedonians). If you have sources that speak of ethnic Greeks or ethnic Hellenes as opposed Romaoi/Greeks (East Christians) in Macedonia, feel free to share it.

Nice of you to throw that one in, perhaps you should (re)visit your own church history (with special attention on your priests), before you pass judgement on a scenario you know next to nothing about. I take it that the Greek government would reward with flowers somebody (an ethnic Greek) who formed a breakaway church, was in cahoots with foreign churches with aims against the Greek church, claimed to be the 'true' archbishop of Athens and caused dissent among the people by attacking the identity of the church and nation? Tsarknias has not claimed anything of the sort, in case you were thinking to jump to another irrelevant comparison.

Soldier of Macedon,

I asked you to demonstrate me where the Greek state claims (and even promotes) the idea of a 97% ethnic pure state.

Instead you show me links that do not represent the opinion of the Greek state where they say things about the Greek state. And what they say has not to do with the 'ethnic purity' but with the religion.

Can you please give me relevant answer to the question? It's important. If you insist I can comment on some of the other things you said, but it's important that we can, once and for all, clarify this matter about Greece claiming etnic purity.

[Jankovska]

Why don't you show us any relevant facts where Greece admits to have different ethnic groups living withing Greece? We can claim whatever we like till proven wrong, if you want your state to look good than prove us wrong.

[Giorikas]

Why don't you show us any relevant facts where Greece admits to have different ethnic groups living withing Greece? We can claim whatever we like till proven wrong, if you want your state to look good than prove us wrong.

Have you decided yet whether you are going to ignore me or not? Why don't I don't do what you ask? Soldier of Macedon claimed something, in this case it was him, but I read this all the time on this forum. And it is not true. The Greek state does not promote such an idea. Prove me wrong. Should be easy, eh?

[Jankovska]

Have you decided yet whether you are going to ignore me or not? Why don't I don't do what you ask? Soldier of Macedon claimed something, in this case it was him, but I read this all the time on this forum. And it is not true. The Greek state does not promote such an idea. Prove me wrong. Should be easy, eh?

You are right, you are a complete waste of time and space. What a surprise, another greek, another precious minute gone.

[Giorikas]

Of course you have, don't pretend not to know what you know for such a point of discussion, not a good trait.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2007/90178.htm

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gr.html

Greece does not allow its citizens to express their ethnic identity in an official census, yet due to the Christian Orthodox component amounting to 97-8% of the population, it is shamelessy promoted as the actual 'Greek' population of the state. Does that not constitute a blatant abuse and twisting of the facts?

No it doesn't disprove anything, the party (or any other Macedonian party) needs time to gain the trust of a people who have been lied to for decades by the Greek state they unfortunately find themselves in. There is nothing to doubt my friend, if you are going to use this as your benchmark to measure the Macedonian component of the Greek population then you must be equally in acceptance where it concerns the 'Hellenic' component, represented by title in its true pagan meaning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece

You know what Giorikas, somehow I am finding it hard to believe that the true 'Hellenic' component is as significant given thd poor number of voters. Perhaps they should ask for minority rights as Hellenes in Greece?

You tell me, am I asking for a favour or are you contradicting yourself? You begin with expressing your belief that all identities are to be respected yet conclude by practically stating that one must beg for that respect in the form of a favour? Do you have any obligation to respect?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html

http://www.tatsachen-ueber-deutschland.de/en/federal-

Does the EU state of Germany deny its native citizens their ethnic identity, does it claim all of the western Christians (Protestant or Catholic) as 'Germans' in the same exclusive manner as the Greek state does with its Orthodox population? Why does Greece avoid the ethnic question on its national census'? Why does Greece wrongfully refuse to recognize its ethnic minorities?


One of your so-called best 'allies' against the Macedonians (Brailsford, early 20th century) says that nearly all of the "Greeks" in Macedonia were Vlachs and to a much lesser degree Slavs (Macedonians). If you have sources that speak of ethnic Greeks or ethnic Hellenes as opposed Romaoi/Greeks (East Christians) in Macedonia, feel free to share it.

Nice of you to throw that one in, perhaps you should (re)visit your own church history (with special attention on your priests), before you pass judgement on a scenario you know next to nothing about. I take it that the Greek government would reward with flowers somebody (an ethnic Greek) who formed a breakaway church, was in cahoots with foreign churches with aims against the Greek church, claimed to be the 'true' archbishop of Athens and caused dissent among the people by attacking the identity of the church and nation? Tsarknias has not claimed anything of the sort, in case you were thinking to jump to another irrelevant comparison.

You are comparison is incorrect. As far as I know (but I could be wrong actually) your father Tsarknias has never been thrown in jail. Secondly, the Serbian Orthodox Church is not a breakaway church. On the contrary. The Serbian Orthodox Church is very much recognized by Orthodox churches, the Roman Catholic or Protestant churches. Yours is not. (which should not be a reason to obstruct them). Greece doesn't really have a good track record on tolerance on that point as you probably know, but that's a different matter altogether.

[Giorikas]

You are right, you are a complete waste of time and space. What a surprise, another greek, another precious minute gone.

I have read your posts; you are a true pearl to society and a great patriot by the looks of it. Just ignore me then as you said you would, I'll just have to live with it.

[Jankovska]

Bless.........

[Daskalot]

Giorikas, what you are doing is futile, we have the power of knowledge the days of Greek manipulation of the world are long gone, YOUR IDENTITY THEFT OF THE MACEDONIAN NATION WILL BE KNOWN TO THE WORLD, FORCED ASSIMILATION, POPULATION EXCHANGES...... everything that you all fear will be brought back to daylight.

This you have brought upon yourselves.