Eurovision

[Brian]

How very mature of you guys.

You are right - a dumb slut is a dumb slut and who she bangs is her choice.

I wonder if you would be as mature if she was your sister?

If everyone took on that 'mature' attitude then it becomes 'commonly acceptable' and with no/reduced stigma attached it becomes that much more easier for the next girl to think the same and so on.

On the surface it looks so 'personal choice' but if it becomes an accepted practice then the consequences can be dire. Do you think if they had kids they would be thought of as ethnic Macedonians? Or do you think the future of 'New Macedonia' is a hybrid of Albanians and Macedonians?

By echoing 'personal choice' you become part of the force driving such a situation towards a point of common acceptability. If you can't see what is wrong with that then the modern liberal brain-washing has got you bad. Try running into a wall head first a few times - it might then wake you up.

I don't know if it's true or just 'urban legend' but I have heard some people say upto the 1950's or 60's the Greek government was offering good payments to Greek men who would actively pursue and convince a Macedonian girl to marry them so they could all be 'good Greeks' together. It would not surprise me if it were true, but can you understand the consequences of such a policy? Can you relate that consequence to the above situation? Or is it still 'personal choice' and OK?

[Brian]

so tresite gluposti, kako mozi da bidi so albanec?
se zalite stalno za albancite kako a zemat nasata zemja,
a ne vi smeta koga odat nasite devojcina so albanci?!
lele coek

Now, now MKPrilep, it's the 'Prilep' in you talking - not so 'mature'.

[Zarni]

This bad very bad I am a Nationlisit and this should not happen, almost as bad as a Macedonian Women dating a Greek

The fact she is a femalei s irrelevant

[George S.]

It is consistent with everything the albanians are doing that is they are screwing us to the extent of taking over.If this woman is silly enough to fall for a shiptar who cares it's her own free will.She won't be getting the blessing of marrying a macedonian.I know it's insulting & that the albanians don't respect macedonians.The fact that she's macedonian & he is shiptar ,well the relos will hate each other.We are different people.

[Komita]

toa tie kurva siptarska, ne treba da se pojavuva pak na makedonskata scena.

[Mygdon]

maybe 1 out of 1000 Macedonian girls is or has been dating some albanian guy... so why make a fuss about something like that.. and if a Macedonian guy had dated an albanian girl, would've it made you upset the same way?

[United MKD]

Disgusting in my eyes, but whatever her life.

[George S.]

maybe in due time the'll see how incompatible they are & split.Then she'll go back to some macedonian.Maybe they aren't serious enough & it's just dating.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

How very mature of you guys.

You are right - a dumb slut is a dumb slut and who she bangs is her choice.

I wonder if you would be as mature if she was your sister?

If everyone took on that 'mature' attitude then it becomes 'commonly acceptable' and with no/reduced stigma attached it becomes that much more easier for the next girl to think the same and so on.

On the surface it looks so 'personal choice' but if it becomes an accepted practice then the consequences can be dire. Do you think if they had kids they would be thought of as ethnic Macedonians? Or do you think the future of 'New Macedonia' is a hybrid of Albanians and Macedonians?

By echoing 'personal choice' you become part of the force driving such a situation towards a point of common acceptability. If you can't see what is wrong with that then the modern liberal brain-washing has got you bad. Try running into a wall head first a few times - it might then wake you up.

I don't know if it's true or just 'urban legend' but I have heard some people say upto the 1950's or 60's the Greek government was offering good payments to Greek men who would actively pursue and convince a Macedonian girl to marry them so they could all be 'good Greeks' together. It would not surprise me if it were true, but can you understand the consequences of such a policy? Can you relate that consequence to the above situation? Or is it still 'personal choice' and OK?

You really are an idiot Brian. Why are you looking into this so much? How this is even news is beyond me. It's quite evident that these two have known each other for quite some time, but keep up the name calling if it makes you happy. It's an individual decision whether she goes out with a Macedonian, Albanian, or even a Greek. There's a difference between accepting such circumstances and encouraging others to do the same. I'll admit that it's not ideal, and I wouldn't be particularly over the moon if it were a sister or daughter of mine, but if they are both in the relationship for the right reasons, then I don't see the problem.

There would definitely be Albanian men trying to marry Macedonian women for political reasons, similar to what the Greeks attempted to erode the Macedonian identity from the Aegean. But if this were the case here, it is up to her to determine whether she is being used, and whether both individuals in the relationship can successfully push politics aside. If not, well, then it is her responsiblility to leave him and find someone else who is not politically or ethnically motivated.

You're still stuck in the stone age Brian. 'Personal choice' couldn't be emphasised enough in the 21st century. If you're content to deny the freedom to do what you want, when you want, where you want.. then you might as well take a time machine back to the 1800s. Maybe the aliens can assist you there Giorgio.

This discussion actually reminds me of the Macedonian movie 'Before the rain.'

[Soldier of Macedon]

Generally speaking, race or ethnicity should never deter an individual from love, happiness, etc. If we are to be progressive in a globalised world then this should be a non-factor. However, I can understand how some people would view what Tamara has done as inappropriate given the actions over the last decade by the ethnic group to whom this Arslani fellow belongs. That is why the individual needs to be judged aside from his ethnic group. If he does share the same irredentist views about Macedonia as a significant portion of his kinsmen - and if this doesn't bother her - then I can see why people would classify her as a traitor.

So, do we know what his views are?

[Volk]

Generally speaking, race or ethnicity should never deter an individual from love, happiness, etc. If we are to be progressive in a globalised world then this should be a non-factor. However, I can understand how some people would view what Tamara has done as inappropriate given the actions over the last decade by the ethnic group to whom this Arslani fellow belongs. That is why the individual needs to be judged aside from his ethnic group. If he does share the same irredentist views about Macedonia as a significant portion of his kinsmen - and if this doesn't bother her - then I can see why people would classify her as a traitor.

So, do we know what his views are?

Is there any albanian that does not believe in greater albania?

[Brian]

There's a difference between accepting such circumstances and encouraging others to do the same. I'll admit that it's not ideal, and I wouldn't be particularly over the moon if it were a sister or daughter of mine, but if they are both in the relationship for the right reasons, then I don't see the problem.



You're still stuck in the stone age Brian. 'Personal choice' couldn't be emphasised enough in the 21st century. If you're content to deny the freedom to do what you want, when you want, where you want.. then you might as well take a time machine back to the 1800s.

The liberal West attitude to freedom of choice has been what started as a good thing to being subverted to the detriment of all Europeans - without getting into too many details here. Your attitude shows you have been severely brain-washed.

No wonder you cannot see that by being accepting of the situation you ACTUALLY are encouraging it by your very acceptance. It is the brain-washing that's telling you so long as don't actually mouth the words, "go and do it", you can sit back comfortably believing you are on the right side of your moral judgement even if "(you) admit that it's not ideal, and I wouldn't be particularly over the moon if it were a sister or daughter of mine,". - so in other words even if you are not particularly pleased you WILL be totally accepting without a whimper!

You brain-washing further extends to you mentally releasing yourself of any guilt of any future actions/consequences - so what if there are no more Macedonians so long as you ONLY encouraged it by letting it happen and announcing ie fostering an attitude of total acceptance, it wasn't 'really' encouraging it like actually saying, "go do it". Your brain-washing allows you to delude yourself that there is a very clear cut distinction between the two encouragements so much so that you cease to be able to recognise that it is an encouragement - the difference is only a thin technical one.

If you had two children and one started swearing in every sentence - F this F that I'm going to the F'ing park to F'ing play - and you are "not over the moon about it" as you say, but as you didn't actually tell him to "go do it" you feel no responsibility for his actions and by your total acceptance based on personal choice should prevail and your actually voicing this opinion (ie personal choice should prevail) to others who comment on his swearing upon encountering you and your child, do you think it is more likely, or less likely, your second child will also start swearing, even if you didn't tell him to "go do it"? What, if any consequences do you foresee for your children in the real world which may not want swearing and couldn't care less for your liberal "personal choice should prevail" attitude?

Can you see that if your attitude becomes common place, as you seem to be advocating to do
("'Personal choice' couldn't be emphasised enough in the 21st century. If you're content to deny the freedom to do what you want, when you want, where you want.. then you might as well take a time machine back to the 1800s.")
then the moral standard of the society is degraded. What happens if you encounter another society that doesn't share your society's standard? Do you think they may be not accepting of your society?

[B]As a popular singer in the public eye, do you think her actions might catch the attention of other young women/girls and if your society were full of people like you - ie "not over the moon" but actively saying "personal choice" should prevail and are totally "accepting" of the singers actions - do you think the next young woman/girl approach by an Albanian man might think, "Why not?" and would be more likely to choose to go with an Albanian because everyone is "accepting" of it?

Can you now see that the line between actively encouraging something by saying "go do it" and (yes it is) actively encouraging someone by voicing that "personal choice" should prevail and that you are totally "accepting" of the situation is only a thin technicality to delude yourself that you are 'not encouraging' it?[/B]

The Western liberal attitude of "freedom of choice is a good thing" is exactly that, a good thing, it's just those who hope to subvert it and turn it into a bad thing by leaving off "choice has limits, and as long as you are within those limits bad consequences are less likely to happen".

The natural conclusion to your attitude gaining widespread prevalence is that it is more likely Macedonian girls will see it as acceptable to go with Albanian men (or other ethnicities) to the point you will be wondering where all the Macedonians have gone.

Did they at least give you a lolly after the brain-washing or did they just wipe their @#$% on your bum cheeks?

[Phoenix]

The liberal West attitude to freedom of choice has been what started as a good thing to being subverted to the detriment of all Europeans - without getting into too many details here. Your attitude shows you have been severely brain-washed.

No wonder you cannot see that by being accepting of the situation you ACTUALLY are encouraging it by your very acceptance. It is the brain-washing that's telling you so long as don't actually mouth the words, "go and do it", you can sit back comfortably believing you are on the right side of your moral judgement even if "(you) admit that it's not ideal, and I wouldn't be particularly over the moon if it were a sister or daughter of mine,". - so in other words even if you are not particularly pleased you WILL be totally accepting without a whimper!

You brain-washing further extends to you mentally releasing yourself of any guilt of any future actions/consequences - so what if there are no more Macedonians so long as you ONLY encouraged it by letting it happen and announcing ie fostering an attitude of total acceptance, it wasn't 'really' encouraging it like actually saying, "go do it". Your brain-washing allows you to delude yourself that there is a very clear cut distinction between the two encouragements so much so that you cease to be able to recognise that it is an encouragement - the difference is only a thin technical one.

If you had two children and one started swearing in every sentence - F this F that I'm going to the F'ing park to F'ing play - and you are "not over the moon about it" as you say, but as you didn't actually tell him to "go do it" you feel no responsibility for his actions and by your total acceptance based on personal choice should prevail and your actually voicing this opinion (ie personal choice should prevail) to others who comment on his swearing upon encountering you and your child, do you think it is more likely, or less likely, your second child will also start swearing, even if you didn't tell him to "go do it"? What, if any consequences do you foresee for your children in the real world which may not want swearing and couldn't care less for your liberal "personal choice should prevail" attitude?

Can you see that if your attitude becomes common place, as you seem to be advocating to do
("'Personal choice' couldn't be emphasised enough in the 21st century. If you're content to deny the freedom to do what you want, when you want, where you want.. then you might as well take a time machine back to the 1800s.")
then the moral standard of the society is degraded. What happens if you encounter another society that doesn't share your society's standard? Do you think they may be not accepting of your society?

[B]As a popular singer in the public eye, do you think her actions might catch the attention of other young women/girls and if your society were full of people like you - ie "not over the moon" but actively saying "personal choice" should prevail and are totally "accepting" of the singers actions - do you think the next young woman/girl approach by an Albanian man might think, "Why not?" and would be more likely to choose to go with an Albanian because everyone is "accepting" of it?

Can you now see that the line between actively encouraging something by saying "go do it" and (yes it is) actively encouraging someone by voicing that "personal choice" should prevail and that you are totally "accepting" of the situation is only a thin technicality to delude yourself that you are 'not encouraging' it?[/B]

The Western liberal attitude of "freedom of choice is a good thing" is exactly that, a good thing, it's just those who hope to subvert it and turn it into a bad thing by leaving off "choice has limits, and as long as you are within those limits bad consequences are less likely to happen".

The natural conclusion to your attitude gaining widespread prevalence is that it is more likely Macedonian girls will see it as acceptable to go with Albanian men (or other ethnicities) to the point you will be wondering where all the Macedonians have gone.

Did they at least give you a lolly after the brain-washing or did they just wipe their @#$% on your bum cheeks?

I always look forward to Brian's colourful responses...

Give a nut a modem and some LSD and this is the inevitable outcome...

[EgejskaMakedonia]

The liberal West attitude to freedom of choice has been what started as a good thing to being subverted to the detriment of all Europeans - without getting into too many details here. Your attitude shows you have been severely brain-washed.

No wonder you cannot see that by being accepting of the situation you ACTUALLY are encouraging it by your very acceptance. It is the brain-washing that's telling you so long as don't actually mouth the words, "go and do it", you can sit back comfortably believing you are on the right side of your moral judgement even if "(you) admit that it's not ideal, and I wouldn't be particularly over the moon if it were a sister or daughter of mine,". - so in other words even if you are not particularly pleased you WILL be totally accepting without a whimper!

You brain-washing further extends to you mentally releasing yourself of any guilt of any future actions/consequences - so what if there are no more Macedonians so long as you ONLY encouraged it by letting it happen and announcing ie fostering an attitude of total acceptance, it wasn't 'really' encouraging it like actually saying, "go do it". Your brain-washing allows you to delude yourself that there is a very clear cut distinction between the two encouragements so much so that you cease to be able to recognise that it is an encouragement - the difference is only a thin technical one.

If you had two children and one started swearing in every sentence - F this F that I'm going to the F'ing park to F'ing play - and you are "not over the moon about it" as you say, but as you didn't actually tell him to "go do it" you feel no responsibility for his actions and by your total acceptance based on personal choice should prevail and your actually voicing this opinion (ie personal choice should prevail) to others who comment on his swearing upon encountering you and your child, do you think it is more likely, or less likely, your second child will also start swearing, even if you didn't tell him to "go do it"? What, if any consequences do you foresee for your children in the real world which may not want swearing and couldn't care less for your liberal "personal choice should prevail" attitude?

Can you see that if your attitude becomes common place, as you seem to be advocating to do
("'Personal choice' couldn't be emphasised enough in the 21st century. If you're content to deny the freedom to do what you want, when you want, where you want.. then you might as well take a time machine back to the 1800s.")
then the moral standard of the society is degraded. What happens if you encounter another society that doesn't share your society's standard? Do you think they may be not accepting of your society?

[B]As a popular singer in the public eye, do you think her actions might catch the attention of other young women/girls and if your society were full of people like you - ie "not over the moon" but actively saying "personal choice" should prevail and are totally "accepting" of the singers actions - do you think the next young woman/girl approach by an Albanian man might think, "Why not?" and would be more likely to choose to go with an Albanian because everyone is "accepting" of it?

Can you now see that the line between actively encouraging something by saying "go do it" and (yes it is) actively encouraging someone by voicing that "personal choice" should prevail and that you are totally "accepting" of the situation is only a thin technicality to delude yourself that you are 'not encouraging' it?[/B]

The Western liberal attitude of "freedom of choice is a good thing" is exactly that, a good thing, it's just those who hope to subvert it and turn it into a bad thing by leaving off "choice has limits, and as long as you are within those limits bad consequences are less likely to happen".

The natural conclusion to your attitude gaining widespread prevalence is that it is more likely Macedonian girls will see it as acceptable to go with Albanian men (or other ethnicities) to the point you will be wondering where all the Macedonians have gone.

Did they at least give you a lolly after the brain-washing or did they just wipe their @#$% on your bum cheeks?

Seriously, what the hell are you on about? It's not that complicated Brian, you look far too much into trivial matters. Firstly, let's establish that this is a relationship between two people, at this stage it's nothing more or nothing less. My so called 'accepting stance' has been taken completely out of context by you. But that doesn't surprise me at all, so I'll once again explain my logic to Giorgio the simpleton.

Firstly I will define your 'attitude' with extraordinary examples. One could say you're on the verge of being a complete racist. Does your opinion differ if a Macedonian woman married an African-American, Asian, Russian or an individual from any other ethnic group other than Macedonian? It may very well be that the children may grow up to embrace their Asian culture and traditions and the Macedonian heritage will hypothetically disappear after a few generations. Is this wrong too? I believe it is the responsibility of the individual to ensure that their Macedonian traditions, language and culture are maintained in the family. If they are denied this right, then that is completely unacceptable. But to have a fit over a Macedonian woman dating an Albanian is ridiculous, unless one of the parties involved are in the relationship for the wrong reasons (i.e future assimilation). I highly doubt that however, would constitute the majority of cross ethnic relationships.

In life, I assume everyone would want the best for their children, providing them with support regardless of the choices they make. I'm sure those on the MTO with children can vouch for these values. I also assume that most would prefer their children to find a Macedonian wife, and I agree, but that should only be a preference..not a restriction. Your swearing example is completely irrelevant. Cursing ultimately presents a negative connotation. The 2nd child would be exposed to environmental influences within their own household. Sure, if the parents 'accept' the swearing then both child will likely develop a habit due to a lack of subsequent consequences. A relationship on the other hand, is a entirely different scenario. If the first-born child was 'permitted' to date an Albanian, why would the 2nd child then actively and deliberately try to find an Albanian partner? Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Whether my attitude is commonplace or not, society would be severely backwards if it did not exist at all. Women would still be discriminated against by law, so too would blacks, immigrants, gays, etc. If you want to limit who your children can make friends with, and teach them to hate people based on their differences, then that is your decision. The consequence of that is that they will suffer from your narrow minded views, and will inevitably be outcasts in our future community. In this case, nobody has a clue of this Albanian, yet as per usual, jump to conclusions and begin to label a fellow Macedonian as a 'whore, slut, traitor.' Since you began talking about children, if you preach such an attitude, then all I say is goodluck to them. If another society doesn't share the values we share, then that is no excuse for us to stoop to their level. But so long as your in a foreign nation, you must respect their rules, and this is what the Albanians in Macedonia fail to do. Are there good Albanians in Macedonia? Yeh, sure there are. Is this particular man one of them? I don't know. But that's irrelevant. If they are both in the relationship for the sole reason that they love each other, why is that a problem? If they are capable of putting politics aside and essentially 'making it work,' then fair play to them.

Like I said earlier, despite her being a public performing artist, I highly doubt she would set some kind of 'craze' where Macedonian girls start swarming to find themselves Albanian boyfriends. That's absolutely ridiculous. It doesn't work like that Brian..to each their own. Perhaps if we had more people like you Brian, capital punishment would still exist for anyone who isn't considered the 'norm.'


Pheww... at least I got all my thoughts down before the Men in Black invade my house and wipe my memory. Or maybe aliens did it...

[Komita]

Generally speaking, race or ethnicity should never deter an individual from love, happiness, etc. If we are to be progressive in a globalised world then this should be a non-factor. However, I can understand how some people would view what Tamara has done as inappropriate given the actions over the last decade by the ethnic group to whom this Arslani fellow belongs. That is why the individual needs to be judged aside from his ethnic group. If he does share the same irredentist views about Macedonia as a significant portion of his kinsmen - and if this doesn't bother her - then I can see why people would classify her as a traitor.

So, do we know what his views are?

I'm against multuculturism and globalism it's already destroying Europe.