It`s useless, Greeks will never learn...

[Mastika]

I hope that one day the Turks give the greeks what they deserve.

[Phoenix]

greek nationalism is based on deep rooted notions of xenophobia...everyone is their enemy, you can't change that mindset...it is cultural.

everyone in greece is trying to prove their 'greekness' because this guarantees 'acceptance', to be 'accepted' as a good 'greek' you have to hate everyone...

this is how peasant nationalism operates, it doesn't come naturally, rather it is a contrived beast that feeds off a shared hatred for something that nobody can properly articulate...

[Spartan]

Apparently, it's not their problem.

I would hardly consider the Golden shower boys, and far right nationalists who organize these protests 'normal' Greeks.

[Phoenix]

I would hardly consider the Golden shower boys, and far right nationalists who organize these protests 'normal' Greeks.

I guess the 'normal greeks' are the ones who protest against the 'G' boys...no?

[Spartan]

^^Those would be the far left, and they can hardly be considered 'normal' either.
Even worse imo.
Normal Greeks, or normal 'anyones', dont 'protest' like that.
Once they do, they cease being normal.

[fyrOM]

It is just as the West want it to be. Greece was created by the west as a backstop to Ottoman and Slavic...which they consider Macedonians to be...expansions which could not only harm them but could fatally stab them economically in the heart.

Much of Europe’s wealth and power has been due to their ability to move troops and goods swiftly to where they are needed. The Suez Canal has been instrumental to their power and wealth. This is not to belittle their other achievements to power and wealth such as the steam train and cotton mill but all would have been diminished and poised for ruin if it was not for the Suez Canal.

The cotton cheaply grown in India could not have easily fueled the industrial revolution had it needed to travel around Africa as western ships had to do in the past. The Boer Wars were all about securing the cape in South Africa for safe passage and a refueling spot for British and other Western ships. Also the Western hold of the Arabian peninsula was for this purpose. The spice and coffee trade were also part of the economic needs of these ports.

The lack of the Suez Canal meant the constant need to spend on wars in Africa and Arabia but the middle east and Balkans had little value and were left to be destroyed...much like what happened when eastern Christians pleaded for help by their western counterparts when the Muslims invaded. The Suez Canal was opened in 1869 but took many years before that to get started. In 1854 and 1856 Ferdinand de Lesseps obtained a concession from Sa'id Pasha, the viceroy of Egypt, to create a company to construct a canal open to ships of all nations, according to plans created by Linant de Bellefonds, a French engineer and high level official of the Egyptian administration of canals, bridges and roads, and by Austrian engineer Alois Negrelli. Although this is when plans and work began the idea was much earlier.

The idea of a canal is not new. In ancient times kings tried to build the canal unsuccessfully. Remnants of an ancient west-east canal, running through the ancient Egyptian cities of Bubastis, Pi-Ramesses, and Pithom were discovered by Napoleon Bonaparte and his cadre of engineers and cartographers in 1799. The seeds of the canal were planted. Such a vitally important structure would be impossible to defend if northern Africa Arabia and the Balkans were under Muslim control and could not be persuaded to let the West have it. Greece is the only closest place with a predominantly Christian population who could be counted on to allow the West to build their bases and camp there hence the need to free Greece from the ottomans and Greece’s creation in 1827. The only other power which could affect their interests were the Slavs and the Macedonians were seen as Slavs and were deemed not to be counted to help protect Western interests against Slavic invaders should this happen hence the Macedonians were left out to hang under the ottomans even until the early part of the 20th century. Their perceived Slavic connections and the rise of communism in the Slavic lands further exasperated the Macedonian position while at the same time further cemented Greece’s importance to the west even to this day. Note the alternate gas pipeline to Russia’s pipeline runs through Greece and not Macedonia.

The Macedonians were not communists and had no intention of becoming communists. They joind up with Titos communists only as a means to fight off a stronger common enemy the Nazis. The original agreement was they would fight together until the Nazis were gone then they would go their separate ways Tito to his communist Yugoslavia and the Macedonians to a free Macedonia which is what they wanted all along. When Tito reneged on the deal the Macedonians wanted to revolt and many Macedonian officers were lined up and executed. The Macedonian brigades were then sent to be slaughtered in the useless battle of Sren. An act of attrition against any Macedonian strength. The battle of Sren was useless because the Nazis had given up by then and only wanted to return to Germany with their lives. As the Germans say themselves there was nothing to be gained by the battle and could not understand why they were set upon so mercilessly in a battle to the death by Titos forces. They didn’t know that Tito had countless thousands of Macedonians he wanted them to kill so that it would not look like he did it himself if he had any hope of keeping the Macedonians in his Yugoslavia.

At the same time the Macedonian brigades in now Greece were waiting for reinforcements from the north as had been planed. Tito cut off the border. Seeing what had happened in the north the southern Macedonians battled on even harder. Showing themselves as a real threat the west sent in the marines mainly British but also USA but only after they were sure no reinforcements would be coming from the north. The British archives show Churchill’s communiqué with his generals that stopping the Macedonians would be next to impossible even if they wanted to take Greece hence the need to break their strength with Tito. On the other hand Tito wanted to rule Yugoslavia without being under the soviets or the West so an offer of help by the West was welcome even at the expense of the Macedonians. Even cut off from reinforcements from the north the southern Macedonians presented a formidable force and so as to minimise casualties napalm bombs were used for the first time in the world to obliterate the Macedonians before foot soldiers were sent in to finish off any who were left. When the tied had well a truly turned the Western forces backed off and left the Greeks to do the slaughtering. Tito was further complicit by closing the border with Greece and ordering border guards to shoot a fleeing Macedonians. Rather than die a tortures death at the hands of the Greeks many Macedonia’s drowned themselves in ohrid lake and surrounding lakes. Before this travesty could become a world uproar and destabilise Yugoslavia Tito reopened the border and welcomed the refugees many of which were women and children.

To keep the Macedonians on side Tito created the Socialist Republic of Macedonia and nobody objected not even Greece. Only when the Yugoslav government could not hold Yugoslavia together and Macedonia would become a truly free republic in 1988 the Greeks hurriedly renamed everything from province of Northern Greece to Macedonia virtually overnight to stake their claim on the name Macedonia even though Macedonian was treated as a dirty word until then. Today we have the name dispute. To keep the Greeks on the West’s side they were aided in removing the ottomans and financially aided to take over a country created for them and reminded their future prosperity and safety only lay with the West.

To maintain the Greek state and the people on the West’s side the illusion of the 100 percent pure Greek state and people whose history went back continuously 4000 years or more. Fear of foreigners by constant reminders of the horrors of the ottoman days and the constant threat of the communist Slavic hoards from the north has left Greece fearful and hateful of anyone not from the west which manifests itself in Greece’s foreign policy but also in the all too frequent racist rants like Greek soldiers march and the latest example of burning the Turkish flag. like I said at the start of this comment just like the West intended it to be. Little did the Macedonians realise how their lives would be affected by napoleons discovery of the ancient attempts of a canal in 1799. The Macedonians fate was sealed from that date to the present day because the Macedonians were not perceived as willing to help protect Western interests in the Suez canal and how vitally important it is to the West. The irony is the Macedonians did not want to be with the Bulgarians nor the Serbs nor have they consciously wanted to be communists just to be Macedonians free in their own country and I think had the West given the Macedonians the same assistance as the Greeks under the same conditions the Macedonians could have been friends and banded together instead of turning to the Slavic countries to free themselves from the ottomans and later to Tito against the Nazis. The West couldn’t bet the Suez canal on the loyalty of the Macedonians.

[Phoenix]

^^Those would be the far left, and they can hardly be considered 'normal' either.
Even worse imo.
Normal Greeks, or normal 'anyones', dont 'protest' like that.
Once they do, they cease being normal.

so we can assume that there's no normality in the right, no normality in the left and everyone in the middle doesn't give a rats arse about normality...not your normal country huh?

[Spartan]

^^Not in the extreme left and right....definitely not.
The ones in the middle have their opinions as well, but express them more civilly.
They dont march around burning and damaging public property with hoods and bandannas on, and other disgraceful acts in 'protest'.

I will agree that greece isnt your 'normal' country though.
Although the support that the extreme right and left recieve at the election polls, is pretty much in line with 'normal' European nations.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Apparently the 'normal' Greeks are the one's who stay quiet while their 'non-normal' Greek kinsmen behave like racist idiots and shame their nation collectively. In some other spheres this is called being 'passive', but when it comes to Greeks there is always another 'explanation', isn't there.

Picture a Macedonian that is continually behaving like an idiot in your presence, who, by his actions is shaming the rest of our community, collectively. Would you tell the moron to pull up? I know I would. Some people wouldn't.

[Daniel the Great]

Onur, the title is so true, they will never learn because they are scared of the truth.
And in this case where they are burning the Turkish flag etc, the Greeks will never learn and will a racist corrupt country always.

[julie]

Daniel they would not know what the truth is if it came up and bit them on the butt. To be scared of the truth is to fear something they have no concept of what that notion is. If the Greeks spoke the truth then Macedonia exists.

burning flags and their military chanting disgusting rascist comments shows the mentality and idiocy of their "democracy"

Corruption reigns supreme in hellAss and I am quite enjoying watching their downfall. And even in Aussie land people are sick of hearing about them and their debt to the planet - farking Greeks they say. And I smile and soar inside and wait for the dickshit dumb asses to blame their financial woes on Macedonians.

[osiris]

to be brave enough to deconstruct the biggest and most glorious national myth in europe is definitely beyond modern greeks.
it is an absurdity yet they all cling desperately indignantly blindly proudly to elenismo as their origin and defining national qualities.
greece is caught in a kafka moment of their own making and they are not strong and true to themselves enough to change it.

[Daniel the Great]

Daniel they would not know what the truth is if it came up and bit them on the butt. To be scared of the truth is to fear something they have no concept of what that notion is. If the Greeks spoke the truth then Macedonia exists.

burning flags and their military chanting disgusting rascist comments shows the mentality and idiocy of their "democracy"

Corruption reigns supreme in hellAss and I am quite enjoying watching their downfall. And even in Aussie land people are sick of hearing about them and their debt to the planet - farking Greeks they say. And I smile and soar inside and wait for the dickshit dumb asses to blame their financial woes on Macedonians.

Julie absolutely correct.
There nation is burning from this massive debt and they are too busy burning flags and chanting racist shit, enough is enough with these moronic people.
The bad things they have done in the past and in the present to the Macedonians and to other peoples has caught up to them to bite them on the Hell-ass.

[Onur]

Onur, IMO, the Kurdish people should be accorded the right to self determination and Turkey should stop undermining the drive for full sovereignty of the Kurdish state in Iraq.

Also remember that Turkey, like our other great "friends" USA and Bulgaria, supported the imposition and implementation of the 2001 infamous "Ramkoven dogovor" (aka "Framework Agreement") that turned Macedonia from a Macedonian state into a multi multi-ethnic non-Macedonian, an experimental apartheid system that leads to the demise of the Macedonian identity. Now Turkey, Bulgaria and USA should PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH and implement the same arrangement in their countries. Considering the huge Kurdish population in Turkey, I am sure Turks would "love" to have a system similar to the one they pressured Macedonians to accept. What do you say to that, Onur?

Lastly, the 2008 NATO recommendation for Macedonia to negotiate, read change its name, a "mutually" acceptable state name with Greece was in fact a unanimous decision, which means ALL our so called "friends" are supporting and pressing for a name change. EU and US/NATO are the ones pressing Macedonians and using Greece as the excuse to deconstruct and exterminate our Macedonian identity.

Indigen, Turkey officially signed "Self-determination policy" at 2002 or 2003 but in my opinion, its just another plot of great powers which suits their 1500 year old policy of "divide & concur". First, they make you accept self determination policy, then they encourage different ethnicity to uprising against their government while on the other hand, none of great powers signs self determination policy themselves.

Also you are generalizing NATO and EU too much. Things doesn't work like you describe here. NATO is fully controlled by USA and England. They put their own arguments and demands on the table and other countries just signs the papers. If you deny, they convince you to accept their demands in one or other way. I can say same for EU. You know EU is controlled by France and Germany and other members just approves them most of the times.

So, blaming Turkey or any other member for NATO`s decisions or blaming Poland for EU`s decisions is not that fair nor logical.

I am definitely for Kurdish self determination. How on Earth 50 million people cannot do this for themselves is beyond me. But I am against the USA interference that is creating this renewed Kurdish issue. The Kurdish section of Iraq is very oil rich and the USA support is nothing more than self-serving.

The Kurds are definitely in need of their own nation, but the "new" support they seem to have sounds a little hollow to me.

Who told you that there are 50 million Kurds??? There are about 8 million Kurds in Turkey which equals to %10 of Turkey`s population. If you count the Kurds in Iraq, Iran and Syria, there are around 14-15 million Kurds in this territory. This is also the result of their hard work of last 15 years to increase their population. There was only 2 million Kurds in Turkey 15 years ago but most Kurdish women gives birth to at least 8-9 children for 15 years to increase their population as many as possible. They are getting paid by northern Iraq Kurdish authority for every children. Since it would be immoral to prevent them to give birth, we just don't know how to stop them. Ofc they don't care about their children`s future either. They just give birth and throw these children at the streets or expect Turkish government to take care of them. They are just blinded by pro-Kurdistan activists who got supported by CIA. But don't get me wrong, in Turkey, maybe only 3 of 10 Kurds supports all this non-sense. Most of them are still reasonable and supports Turkish government but in Iraq and Iran, all Kurds supports USA and works under the command of CIA agents.



Like you said, Kurds in this area are just peons of great powers. They used them against Saddam`s Iraq, Turkey and Iran.

Things doesn't work with people`s wishes and dreams RTG. There wasn't any Kurdish state existed in the world since the beginning of human history and its not possible either. Pro-Kurdistan terrorists wants eastern Anatolia, northern Iran, northern Iraq and some part of Syria. They are in delusion of creating some big Kurdish state. Ofc if this happens, they will be under control of great powers. So, its like 2nd Israel on the ass of Iran. Turkey never prefers to this stupid idea to become reality either. It`s simply not possible at all.

Now, try to think what Iran does if USA creates 2nd Israel on his ass???? Also, did you know that there are 20 million Shia sect community living in south of Iraq who totally supports Iran??? Also the most powerful Shia sect religious leader living in Iraq and he is also the leader of Shia community there. If Kurds creates Kurdistan at north, then 20 million Shia Muslims prefers to be part of Iran. This can cause WW-3 if great powers and Kurdish terrorists tries to achieve that. If not, then Iran government kills all Kurds there in 3 days with chemical weapons or something.

Currently Iraq is ruled by Kurds since USA occupation. They simply ignore pro-Iran Shia and Sunni Arab community and let the small minority of Kurds stay as authority in there. Ofc Kurds are ruled by CIA, non-other. I am also %100 sure that when USA leaves Iraq, all Sunni Arabs and Shia majority will kill all the Kurds in there as a revenge for their betrayal and cooperation with the USA. Kurds know this very well, thats why they are trying to form Kurdistan before USA leaves Iraq. Their problem is, Turkey and especially Iran never allows an Independent Kurdistan there. So, its a complete mess, thanks to great powers ofc.

It is just as the West want it to be. Greece was created by the west as a backstop to Ottoman and Slavic which they consider Macedonians to be expansions which could not only harm them but could fatally stab them economically in the heart...

I think you wrote all this yourself OziMak. This is a great summary of the historical events and i agree to your statements.

[fyrOM]

Onur it is a sad summer of how the west have manipulated everyone for their own benefit even though the ones they are manipulating are bigger in number and in historical times when war was about fighting and not like pressing buttons on a video game to blow up a city they would have beaten them easily.

What I was trying to say was had the west said this is Greece and we need to support them for the Suez canal but went further and said this is Macedonia and we will support them for the same reason instead of saying we need a bigger buffer zone so we will extend Greece over Macedonia the west would have found an ally in Macedonia because they have never wanted to be with Bulgaria or Serbia and have only turned to them out of desperation from oppression for help only to be oppressed by them. The Greeks would have had a friend in the region and not felt so alone and hence not so fearful of everyone not from the west. The Greeks and the Macedonians could have easily been friends. Instead the west has manipulated the Greeks into a fear frenzy where they cannot accept anyone not from the west leading to their ingrained racism. It is sad to realise the west left Macedonia to either be squashed or killed off by her enemies for the sake of the Suez canal because the west could not believe the Macedonians would be an ally to them instead of willingly falling under Russian then soviet Slavic influence. Repeatedly over history the west have made this same decision.

The west see the Greeks as in their pocket but because they need a bigger buffer zone the best outcome as the west saw it was if the Macedonians could just cease to exist everything would be right in the Balkans. Even now not being able to kill off the Macedonians they are putting pressure on to extinguish the Macedonian identity. They see the Macedonians as a small number of people who could be easily absorbed into Europe as the brightest Macedonians choose to leave for a better life in the west while the Albanians are constantly encouraged to make bigger and bigger demands and land grabs.

The Greeks could have turned out to be different people but after so long of manipulation their racism is so ingrained I doubt they will ever change unless they are made to capitulate. The only thing that can make them do this is if in Gruevskis archeological digs he finds some I waz ’ear graffiti or other stuff as conclusive proof of Macedonians being Macedonians in Alexanders time. Only then the Greeks will say wow it was like that. Lets be friends.

It is sad to think all of Macedonia’s problems stem from the so called lack of ancient physical evidence which I believe is hidden in Greek museum basements like the aliens in Obamas basements and because of the Suez canal. Well lets not forget a few Macedonian scumbag traitors over the centuries that helped.

I like what is happening in Greece now because even if the Greeks have been manipulated to behave how they do it doesn’t change the fact they did the crime and in my book it doesn’t make them any less guilty so whatever they suffer my only reply would be not enough. The best part is whether the Greeks knew they were manipulated or not they have put Europe in an economical precarious position which is not that bad an attempt at payback for a small country like Greece. The more Europe gets into debt the better. One or more PIGS needs to keel over and if the china bubble burst and one or two well timed disasters in the USA and Europe crumbles. Go Greeks!