Zoran Vraniskovski proposes Slav Macedonia

[Buktop]

Buktop, you don't need to fall for anything - the statements are intertwined and I raised them at the same time in my first post. It seems you either can’t or are unwilling to back your friends on this one. If that’s the case, just say so.

The establishment of a semi-autonomous state in 1944 does not support Greek arguments. What supports the Greek argument is UMD’s statement claiming Macedonia has used the name Macedonia since 1944 – this indicates that UMD’s believes that the Macedonians have never used that name prior to 1944 and therefore complementing the Greek claim that Macedonia (and the Macedonians with it) was “invented” in 1944. In addition to this ill-thought out statement, UMD has also made the statement that we have a shared history, culture and geography with the Greeks – referring to the distant past. If we indeed share these traits (as UMD claims we do) then one could argue that the Macedonians and the Greeks are one and the same people (history, culture, geography/territory). What changed according to UMD? In 1944, we established our own state and named it Macedonia (and again according to UMD, for the first time).

You are trying to draw me into a debate over various UMD statements, my initial involvement in this thread dealt with the founding of a Macedonian state, not with any of the UMD issues, I have already stated I will not indulge any of your UMD bashing.

The statement in question referred to the use of the name Macedonia in the founding of our independent state. As Mastika stated, the statement was about our state, and did not deny our historic use of the name as you suggest. If you can find me a statement where they clearly say that we did not use Macedonia to define ourselves before 1944 I will gladly denounce it, the point being no such statement exists and you are drawing baseless conclusions. It is a fact that we have used the name Macedonia for our state since 1944, this is what was stated, no more no less.

[Buktop]

Buktop, if you are so sure of yourself, please provide a reference from a scholar on nationalism.

Why don't you reference the scholars since you seem to be such an authority on the subject?

[Vangelovski]

You are trying to draw me into a debate over various UMD statements, my initial involvement in this thread dealt with the founding of a Macedonian state, not with any of the UMD issues, I have already stated I will not indulge any of your UMD bashing.

The statement in question referred to the use of the name Macedonia in the founding of our independent state. As Mastika stated, the statement was about our state, and did not deny our historic use of the name as you suggest. If you can find me a statement where they clearly say that we did not use Macedonia to define ourselves before 1944 I will gladly denounce it, the point being no such statement exists and you are drawing baseless conclusions. It is a fact that we have used the name Macedonia for our state since 1944, this is what was stated, no more no less.

Buktop, if you read my original post that you responded to, it included the additional UMD statement of shared history, culture and geography. These are a sample of many UMD comments that demonstrate their ill-thought out views when defending the cause (as they seem to define it).

[Vangelovski]

Why don't you reference the scholars since you seem to be such an authority on the subject?

I already did repeatedly- nearly 20 of them (though that's a tiny sample) on Maknews - if I have time tonight I'll post them back up, but what would be the point, you would only ignore it and continue spilling an ocean of blood for the sake of your unity with Meto...or something like that - do you still use that Tito quote at Maknews?

[osiris]

vangel buktop maybe pro umd but i dont think he should be held to account for their policies. its true the first macedonian state in modern times was formed in 1944, but i do not consider it a nation state because we were not an independent sovereign state and had no real power within sfry to decide the main issues of the time.

its only since independence that we have become a true nation.

[indigen]

It is fact,
The referendum question was for the secession from Yugoslavia and that took place September 8, 1991

No one disputed the use of Macedonia, we are discussing the "officially codified" name of the country that was changed, it was always called Macedonia.

If you can understand Macedonian, read below and see that the Referendum for independence in 1991 only asked whether one is FOR/ZA "Sovereign and independent state of MACEDONIA". "Republic" does not come into play at all as it is only a constitutional reference, much like you would use personal titles for your name, e.g. Mr or Sir, but "Buktop" remains unchanged.


ИМАЈЌИ предвид дека македонскиот народ и граѓаните на Македонија, заради претходно изјаснување, на Референдумот одржан на 8 септември 1991 година недвосмислено се изјаснија за “суверена и самостојна држава Македонија”, односно за држава со име кое се состои само од еден единствен збор - Македонија, и дека не постои никаков уставен основ или институција кои можат оваа задолжителна одлука на Референдумот да ја променат,

СМЕТАЈЌИ дека со Уставот од 17 ноември 1991 година Македонија само ги поврати порано пренесените суверени права на поранешна СФРЈ во своја надлежност и повторно почна да функционира како самостојна држава со целосен суверенитет,

СМЕТАЈЌИ дека вториот дел од референдумското прашање од Референдумот одржан на 8 септември 1991 година - “со право да стапи во иден сојуз на суверените држави на Југославија” и “Платформата за идното уредување на југословенската заедница на Претседателот на Претседателството на Босна и Херцеговина и Претседателот на Република Македонија” се целосно исцрпени со Уставот на Македонија од 17 ноември 1991 година и повеќе не прозиведуваат никакви правни последици, односно се ништавни и неважечки,

[Soldier of Macedon]

I will gladly denounce it

No, you will not. Meto advocated a 3-name solution, you dodged it like there was no tomorrow, coming up with all sorts of reasons why it should be re-interpreted to infinium.

Meto Serb danced his way into Australia's Macedonian community, and again, you were there on the merry-go-round to defend his inappropriate behaviour.

Now, all of a sudden, you are prepared to 'denounce' something from him? Who exactly do you think you're kidding? You're a UMD apologist, you have always been one. This facade that you put on here like some 'moderate' becomes more and more laughable with each lame attempt of yours to try and get your buddy out of the mud.

[Vangelovski]

vangel buktop maybe pro umd but i dont think he should be held to account for their policies. its true the first macedonian state in modern times was formed in 1944, but i do not consider it a nation state because we were not an independent sovereign state and had no real power within sfry to decide the main issues of the time.

its only since independence that we have become a true nation.

Osiris,

I'm not holding Buktop accountable for UMD's policies - he's holding himself accountable by consistently defending them.

At no point did I deny that a MODERN Macedonian state was formed in 1944. My point was that UMD's argument that Macedonia has only used the name Macedonia since 1944 (officially or unofficially - whatever bearing that even has) is an idiotic statement in light of the claims made by Greece.

[Vangelovski]

No, you will not. Meto advocated a 3-name solution, you dodged it like there was no tomorrow, coming up with all sorts of reasons why it should be re-interpreted to infinium.

Meto Serb danced his way into Australia's Macedonian community, and again, you were there on the merry-go-round to defend his inappropriate behaviour.

Now, all of a sudden, you are prepared to 'denounce' something from him? Who exactly do you think you're kidding? You're a UMD apologist, you have always been one. This facade that you put on here like some 'moderate' becomes more and more laughable with each lame attempt of yours to try and get your buddy out of the mud.

I'm still waiting to hear Buktop's version of what UMD meant when it published that "we" (i.e., Macedonians and Greeks) share a common culture, history and geography...

[Soldier of Macedon]

vangel buktop maybe pro umd but i dont think he should be held to account for their policies

That may be so mate, but when he defends these policies with everything he has (which isn't much in any case), he is just as much to blame, as (through his support) he is contributing to UMD's deluded vision of what Macedonia was, is, and should be.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I'm still waiting to hear Buktop's version of what UMD meant when it published that "we" (i.e., Macedonians and Greeks) share a common culture, history and geography...

An absolute disgrace.

Meto can share his own 'democratic' (non Macedonian) nation with the Serbs, maybe he can learn a few more of their dances.

[indigen]

vangel buktop maybe pro umd but i dont think he should be held to account for their policies. its true the first macedonian state in modern times was formed in 1944, but i do not consider it a nation state because we were not an independent sovereign state and had no real power within sfry to decide the main issues of the time.

its only since independence that we have become a true nation.

I think the current "RAMKOVNA MAKEDONIJA" is in many respects LESS than what we had in SFRJ. For one, it is no longer a nation state of the Macedonian people and the title deeds are shared with the Ghegs. Only a VICTORIOUSLY waged WAR can alter that fact and provided the "IC", who are party to the "FA", stay out of the fray and don't come in to play judge and jury and decide our fate.

[osiris]

do you really think so indigen do you believe our government is that compromised and ineffectual.

[Mastika]

Does that mean that we should share our historical, national, cultural, linguistic and ethnic name with the Albanians, Turks, Greeks and Vlachs?

No, because as I stated we do have differences. Of all the ethnic groups living in Macedonia we are the only ones who are "ethnically" Macedonian.

Really? So everywhere else in the Ottoman Empire it was ethnically pure, except Macedonia, is that it? Are you sure you know what you're talking about, or is that the mastika doing the talking for you?

I am not saying that the rest of the Empire was ethnically pure. I am just saying that at the turn of the 20th century Macedonia was one of the most ethnically diverse areas of Europe. Macedonia was populated by Orthodox Macedonians, Protestant Macedonians, Muslim Macedonians, Muslim Turks, Yoruk Turks, Gauguz people/Circassians, Orthodox Greeks, Muslim Greeks, Jews, Muslim Albanians, Orthodox Albanians, Catholic Albanians, Orthodox Serbs, Orthodox Aromanians, Muslim Aromanian, Bulgarians and Roma. There have even been reports of Armenians, Georgians, Caucasians and even of Africans living in Macedonia. Not to mention all of the foreigners. Such a mix has even gone down in culinary history, the French salad Macedoine. On the top of my head I can't think of another region of the Ottoman Empire c. 1900 with such a dramatic ethnic mix. The holy land possible? Thrace? But even they can't claim the same diversity which was found in Macedonia.

[osiris]

[QUOTEI am not saying that the rest of the Empire was ethnically pure. I am just saying that at the turn of the 20th century Macedonia was one of the most ethnically diverse areas of Europe. Macedonia was populated by Orthodox Macedonians, Protestant Macedonians, Muslim Macedonians, Muslim Turks, Yoruk Turks, Gauguz people/Circassians, Orthodox Greeks, Muslim Greeks, Jews, Muslim Albanians, Orthodox Albanians, Catholic Albanians, Orthodox Serbs, Orthodox Aromanians, Muslim Aromanian, Bulgarians and Roma. There have even been reports of Armenians, Georgians, Caucasians and even of Africans living in Macedonia. Not to mention all of the foreigners. Such a mix has even gone down in culinary history, the French salad Macedoine. On the top of my head I can't think of another region of the Ottoman Empire c. 1900 with such a dramatic ethnic mix. The holy land possible? Thrace? But even they can't claim the same diversity which was found in Macedonia.][/QUOTE]

mastika if you look at greece and bulgaria its a similar picture the famous salada macedona was clever disinformation by the 3 amigos and it referred to the serb bulgar and greek inhabitants who were in fact all macedonians.

arent you stretching the truth with this comment

Orthodox Greeks, Muslim Greeks, Muslim Albanians, Orthodox Albanians, Catholic Albanians, Orthodox Serbs, Orthodox Aromanians, Muslim Aromanian, Bulgarians and Roma. Th

greeks are greeks and albanians albanians where were the bugari