Zoran Vraniskovski proposes Slav Macedonia

[osiris]

thanks buktop

[Vangelovski]

Buktop,

Here's another interesting UMD statement:

A small, developing, multi-ethnic democracy with only 2 million people could not and will not take over land that belongs to Greece, a large, established country of over 10 million people.

http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/241/51/

Any thoughts on this one?

P.S. Your definition of a 'nation' does not adhere to any definition of 'nation' provided by scholars on nationalism. Though, we've been through this one before on Maknews and I provided you with a list of nearly 20 books you could consult. Obviously you haven't.

[Buktop]

Buktop,

If indeed you are an economist, you shouldn't give up your day job.

Do you really believe that the concept of a state only came into existence in the 19th century?

Will you comment on UMD's theory of "shared" history, culture and geography, or is that one in the too hard basket? I raised this issue at the same time as UMD's statement supporting the Greek claim that we usurped the name Macedonia in 1944. This comment of "shared" history, culture and geography seems to indicate that UMD believes we were originally Greeks and in 1944 created a new state and used the name Macedonia for the first time in history.

I am not falling for your bait Vangelovski, stick to the discussion and stop trying to change the subject.

Why don't you explain to me how the fact that our modern state was created in 1944 by ASNOM supports Greek claims? And why do you even entertain such idiotic thoughts? You are only serving to give the arguments credit if you need to change history in order to deal with moronic claims.

[Buktop]

P.S. Your definition of a 'nation' does not adhere to any definition of 'nation' provided by scholars on nationalism. Though, we've been through this one before on Maknews and I provided you with a list of nearly 20 books you could consult. Obviously you haven't.[/FONT]

Stick to the topic Vangelovski

Oh you mean this definition? A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality.

I responded to Osiris' question discerning a Nation from a State in terms of governing capacity and classification of a sovereign entity in the current definition of the word that was derived from the 19th century concept. Nationality is the current word used to fit the definition above and I was not asked to provide that one.

I would suggest you try responding to the substance of my posts Vangelovski rather than showing your true shallow nature, always looking to discredit opponents of yours through mudslinging. Feel free to address any one of my points when you are not too busy stroking your ego.

[Vangelovski]

Buktop, you don't need to fall for anything - the statements are intertwined and I raised them at the same time in my first post. It seems you either can’t or are unwilling to back your friends on this one. If that’s the case, just say so.

The establishment of a semi-autonomous state in 1944 does not support Greek arguments. What supports the Greek argument is UMD’s statement claiming Macedonia has used the name Macedonia since 1944 – this indicates that UMD’s believes that the Macedonians have never used that name prior to 1944 and therefore complementing the Greek claim that Macedonia was “invented” in 1944. In addition to this ill-thought out statement, UMD has also made the statement that we have a shared history, culture and geography with the Greeks – referring to the distant past. If we indeed share these traits (as UMD claims we do) then one could argue that the Macedonians and the Greeks are one and the same people (history, culture, geography/territory). What changed according to UMD? In 1944, we established our own state and named it Macedonia (and again according to UMD, for the first time).

[Vangelovski]

Stick to the topic Vangelovski

Oh you mean this definition? A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality.

I responded to Osiris' question discerning a Nation from a State in terms of governing capacity and classification of a sovereign entity in the current definition of the word that was derived from the 19th century concept. Nationality is the current word used to fit the definition above and I was not asked to provide that one.

I would suggest you try responding to the substance of my posts Vangelovski rather than showing your true shallow nature, always looking to discredit opponents of yours through mudslinging. Feel free to address any one of my points when you are not too busy stroking your ego.

Buktop, if you are so sure of yourself, please provide a reference from a scholar on nationalism.

[Mastika]

Don't go getting your knickers in a knot boys. The message was we all know the significance of the date. No need to harp on it so much. They way the pro-Meto speak was rolling out I got the impression nothing else was of any relevance.

We can thank the Tato for one thing and one thing only. He deserves no other special mentions.

So do we understand one another now?

Yes, but people on here seem to have a problem acknowledging that the Modern Republic of Macedonia was originally founded in 1944. It is not my fault that the Greeks are too simple minded and petty that they believe this is when our ethnicity was founded. I will NOT stop being proud of the foundation of our modern country because some 'budali' from Greece believe that this is when our ethnicity was created too.

[Mastika]

The establishment of a semi-autonomous state in 1944 does not support Greek arguments. What supports the Greek argument is UMD’s statement claiming Macedonia has used the name Macedonia since 1944 – this indicates that UMD’s believes that the Macedonians have never used that name prior to 1944 and therefore complementing the Greek claim that Macedonia (and the Macedonians with it) was “invented” in 1944. In addition to this ill-thought out statement, UMD has also made the statement that we have a shared history, culture and geography with the Greeks – referring to the distant past. If we indeed share these traits (as UMD claims we do) then one could argue that the Macedonians and the Greeks are one and the same people (history, culture, geography/territory). What changed according to UMD? In 1944, we established our own state and named it Macedonia (and again according to UMD, for the first time).

The Republic of Macedonia has used the name Macedonia since 1944, the year when it is created. This is fact. The ethnic Macedonian people have used the designation "Macedonian" to describe themselves since a much earlier period. Before 1944 the only state which existed for the Macedonian people would have been the Krusevo Republic, which as we all know was really more of a city council then a provisional government as such.

Do we not have shared experiences with the Albanians, Turks, Greeks, Vlachs, etc.? Sure we have some things specific to us. But we all shared roads, famines, history, invasions, emigrations, food supplies, cultural stories etc etc. 100 years ago Macedonia was a very multicultural place with 10 different cultures functioning and coexisting. This diversity is what seperated Macedonia from the rest of the Ottoman realm and is what helped to make our country unique.

Personally I feel that everyone here is just using select quotes and grossly paraphrasing anything just to suit their point.

[Vangelovski]

Mastika,

The problem arised when UMD used select facts to "defend" our right to our name. What it actually has done, is make the Greek claims sound more plausible.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do we not have shared experiences with the Albanians, Turks, Greeks, Vlachs, etc.?

Does that mean that we should share our historical, national, cultural, linguistic and ethnic name with the Albanians, Turks, Greeks and Vlachs?

This diversity is what seperated Macedonia from the rest of the Ottoman realm and is what helped to make our country unique.

Really? So everywhere else in the Ottoman Empire it was ethnically pure, except Macedonia, is that it? Are you sure you know what you're talking about, or is that the mastika doing the talking for you?

[Mikail]

Yes, but people on here seem to have a problem acknowledging that the Modern Republic of Macedonia was originally founded in 1944. It is not my fault that the Greeks are too simple minded and petty that they believe this is when our ethnicity was founded. I will NOT stop being proud of the foundation of our modern country because some 'budali' from Greece believe that this is when our ethnicity was created too.

Mastika, no one has a problem in acknowledging when the modern Macedonian Republic was founded.

We are all proud of the existence of the Republic of Macedonia. Don't go getting us wrong on that.

A non issue is being debated and far too much weight is being placed on one point.

We can take this further and say that Tito did all he could from preventing us from being a united peoples. 1944 is more than significant to the Macedonian people in this regard.

[Big Bad Sven]

What does Vraniskovski's opinion matter anyway? He has no right to offer suggestions to the macedonian people as he is not a macedonian, he is a serb, well a srboman turncoat.

Maybe we should send letters of complaints to the SOC and politely ask them to stop playing stupid games in macedonia and stop making the orthodox religion look even more backwards.

[Mikail]

good point

[I of Macedon]

Though yes its true that Macedonia was a formed republic in 1944, we must realise that the thought of becoming or eventually becoming a realised republic (when looking back at our elites or revolutionaries) went back much further, as we know.

What I'm saying is, people using words like "invented" or "created" in 1944, is misleading. As the "creation" was already established within the minds of our elites and thus began spreading among the people. Thus, more appropriately one should consider - a Macedonian nation being instead 'formed' or 'realised' in 1944.

Further did anyone actually read the book TM found, that is, the Myth of Nations? Because when one takes things into perspective Greek, claims, Bulgarian claims etc are fruitless (in other words we are all - generally speaking - in the same basket when considering our history and obscure origins, we just don't like to believe it, or some do others don't. However, this doesn't change nor should it change who we are and how we express ourselves today likewise in the more recent past) Further, though yes true we all share a history, culture etc we must realise that our history, culture etc (and like other nations and people) varies, by its strength, weakness, shape and form.

Editorial Review of Myth of Nations By Patrick J. Geary

In this compelling historical treatise, Geary (Living with the Dead in the Middle Ages) debunks the myth that modern European national and ethnic groups can be traced to distinct ancient or early medieval peoples. Eighteenth- and 19th-century philosophers like Fichte, Herder and Hegel, among others, famously developed an idea of nationalism that linked the present state to a people unified by political goals, language and culture. While much of this work has been reevaluated, we still take for granted that today's ethnic or national groups correspond to certain distinct forebears and territories. Yet Geary argues that ancient languages and cultures were too fluid to be mapped onto particular geographic regions, and that peoples like the Gauls, Franks and Lombards did not think of themselves as homogeneous. Using the classical histories of Herodotus, Livy, Tacitus and Augustine, Geary demonstrates that in antiquity there was a tremendous diversity of peoples who might have been united temporarily under one leader, but who were not united by what we would call ethnicity or nationality. Thus, he contends, there was no such quality as the "essential soul of a people or a nation" in Europe until 18th- and 19th-century philosophers invented it. Geary argues in a social constructionist vein that "peoples of Europe are processes formed and reformed by history." But his arguments are important in light of the nationalistic excesses of the 20th century, and his conclusions are sure to provoke controversy among scholars. (Jan.) Forecast: Although designed for a general audience, Geary's academic tone will turn away any but the most stalwart readers which is unfortunate, given the importance of this topic.

[indigen]

Though yes its true that Macedonia was a formed republic in 1944, we must realise that the thought of becoming or eventually becoming a realised republic (when looking back at our elites or revolutionaries) went back much further, as we know.

What I'm saying is, people using words like "invented" or "created" in 1944, is misleading. As the "creation" was already established within the minds of our elites and thus began spreading among the people. Thus, more appropriately one should consider - a Macedonian nation being instead 'formed' or 'realised' in 1944.

I believe the more appropriate designation would read as "возобновена Македонската држава"! Translate возобновена and you could use restored, reborn, renewed....


The Macedonian National Program of WMC_SMK (1993)
Excerpts translated to English (using Google translate and my edits):

Starting from the fact that the Macedonian people during World War II, the National-Liberation Struggle was waged on the entire ethno-historical territory of Macedonia, but because of the influence of big powers, renewed their Macedonian state only in the Vardar part of Macedonia and in the current geo-political limits of national legal acts of the Antifascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM) held on August 2, 1944 in the Macedonian Monastery of St. Prohor Pchinski

Paying homage to the first Macedonian President Metodija Andonov - Chento in shaping the renewed independence of the Macedonian state,

Starting from the fact that the Manifesto of the First Session of the Antifascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia held on August 2, 1944, the Macedonian people, by virtue of their eternal national ideals, proclaimed to the whole world their just and irrevocable right to unite the Macedonian people from all its constituent parts, in accordance with the right to self-determination of peoples,

Knowing that ASNOM is the continuation of the Ilinden epic and the centuries-old ideal of the Macedonian people for free, sovereign and independent state of Macedonia on the ethno-historical territory of the Macedonian people

Starting from the fact that the right of the Macedonian people to their own independent state was confirmed by the guarantee of the Atlantic Accord of 14 August 1941, the Treaty in Tehran and the decisions of the Moscow Conference of October 19, 1944 and Tehran Conference from November 28 to December 1, 1943, which guarantee the right to free life of every nation engaged in the Anti-Fascist struggle, behind which stood the great powers England, the Soviet Union and America, which was secured by the presence of allied missions of the First Session of ASNOM

Confirming the fact of the First Session of the Antifascist Assembly of People's Liberation of Macedonia, when Macedonian state was again renewed, there were representatives present from all parts of Macedonia and the Macedonian people - from the Vardar, Aegean and Pirin part of Macedonia

Acknowledging the fact that Macedonia in the former SFR Yugoslavia joined as independent and sovereign State and that part of its sovereign rights were transferred to the former SFR Yugoslavia by the Constitution of 31 December 1946, and the state government on its own territory was administered independently.

ТРГНУВАЈЌИ од фактот дека македонскиот народ во Втората Светска Војна, Народно-Ослободителна Борба водеше на целата своја етно-историска територија на Македонија, но заради влијанието на големите сили, својата Македонска држава ја возобнови само во Вардарскиот дел на Македонија и во постојните гео-политички граници со државно-правните акти на Антифашистичкото Собрание на народното ослободување на Македонија (АСНОМ) одржано на 2 август 1944 година во Македонскиот Манастир “Свети Отец Прохор Пчински”,

ОДДАВАЈЌИ му почит на првиот македонски претседател Методија Андонов - Ченто во обликувањето на самостојноста на возобновената Македонска држава,

ТРГНУВАЈЌИ од фактот дека со Манифестот на Првото заседание на Антифашистичкото Собрание на Народното Ослободување на Македонија од 2 август 1944 година, македонскиот народ, врз основа на своите вековни идеали, пред целиот свет го прокламира своето праведно и неотстапно право за обединување на целиот македонски народ во сите негови делови, во согласност со правото на самоопределување на народите,

ЗНАЕЈЌИ дека АСНОМ е континуитет на Илинденската Епопеја и вековниот идеал на македонскиот народ за слободна, самостојна, суверена и независна држава Македонија на целата етно-историска територија на македонскиот народ,

ТРГНУВАЈЌИ од фактот дека македонскиот народ правото на сопствена самостојна држава го потврди и со гаранциите од Атлантската Спогодба од 14 август 1941 година, Договорот во Техеран и решенијата на Московската Конференција од 19 октомври 1944 година и Техеранската Конференција од 28 ноември до 1 декември 1943 гиодина, со кои се гарантираше правото на слободен живот на секој народ ангажиран во Антифашистичката борба, зад кои стоеја големите сили Англија, Советскиот Сојуз и Америка, а што се обезбеди и со присуството на сојузничките мисии на Првото заседание на АСНОМ,

ПОТВРДУВАЈЌИ го фактот на Првото заседание на Антифашистичкото Собрание на народното ослободување на Македонија, кога повторно е возобновена Македонската држава, имало народни поретставници од сите делови на Македонија и на македонскиот народ - од Вардарскиот, од Егејскиот и од Пиринскиот дел на Македонија,

ПОТВРДУВАЈЌИ го фактот дека Македонија во поранешна СФРЈ пристапи како самостојна и суверена држава и дека дел од нејзините суверени права на поранешна СФРЈ ги пренесе дури со Уставот од 31 декември 1946 година, а државната власт на сопствената територија ја остваруваше самостојно,