Zoran Vraniskovski proposes Slav Macedonia

[Buktop]

Buktop, re-read your own post, you clearly stated that "Greece only officially used the name Hellas in 1832......". I ask you to refer me to the evidence where there was a continued unofficial reference to Hellas or Hellenes prior to the 1800's, and you respond with this:

You should not take my quotes out of context,

Officially meaning that we attained an independent state, before then there was no state, just like Greece only officially used the name Hellas in 1832, just like Albania has only used that name since 1913, just like Israel has only existed since 1948, just like Italy has only existed since 1861, just like Germany has only existed since 1871 ect...

This whole quote only refers to the existence of a State with that name, not having any implications or inference on the historical relevance of the names, but of the states. So please next time quote my whole statement and don't try to make inferences on fragments taken out of context.

I can understand the frustration that Vangelovski and others have with you and your ill-informed statements, and your constant back-flipping.

you obviously don't understand anything I have commented on in this thread, or you have not read anything simply out of spite. I am sorry you let our differing views on UMD affect any subject I comment on and your ability to apply reason to my arguments rather than relying on your predispositions.

[Mastika]

Geographical I suppose.

No, ethnically.

[Rogi]

No, ethnically.

and what were your great, great Grandparents?

[Pelister]

Here is UMD at work. Taking an event out of its historical context entirely.

This whole quote only refers to the existence of a State with that name, not having any implications or inference on the historical relevance of the names, but of the states.

There is the Macedonian State of Justinian, the Macedonian State of Tsar Samoil. There is the Macedonian State of the "Byzantine" Era. More broadly, the Pirin region was "A State" with clearly defined borders, and self-government DURING the Ottoman period and after it was annexed to Bulgaria.

Your WESTERN DEFINITION of what constitutes "A State" is the critical issue, and a problem symptomatic of UMD.

1944 WAS NOT the first time we became a country, or a State or a Nation. So Meto was either just being ignorant, or as I suspect pandering to the "political correct" formula pushed by the West. If he isn't a foriegn policy tool of the West, I don't know who is. I mean this guy actually wants us to change our name!

If UMD gets the chance, it will undermine all the hard work we are doing trying to record our history and defend the truth about who we are and our history.

[Mastika]

and what were your great, great Grandparents?

They too were ethnic Macedonians.

[Buktop]

Here is UMD at work. Taking an event out of its historical context entirely.



There is the Macedonian State of Justinian, the Macedonian State of Tsar Samoil. There is the Macedonian State of the "Byzantine" Era. More broadly, the Pirin region was "A State" with clearly defined borders, and self-government DURING the Ottoman period and after it was annexed to Bulgaria.

Your WESTERN DEFINITION of what constitutes "A State" is the critical issue, and a problem symptomatic of UMD.

1944 WAS NOT the first time we became a country, or a State or a Nation. So Meto was either just being ignorant, or as I suspect pandering to the "political correct" formula pushed by the West. If he isn't a foriegn policy tool of the West, I don't know who is. I mean this guy actually wants us to change our name!

If UMD gets the chance, it will undermine all the hard work we are doing trying to record our history and defend the truth about who we are and our history.

This is the definition from a source that Vangelovski provided me with you moron. Why don't you try and substantiate your claims based on the real principles of what a state is rather than just acting like an idiot and commenting on a subject you obviously lack the ability to comprehend.

[Rogi]

Would it then be fair to say that THEIR great, great Grandparents were also ethnic Macedonains?

I'll go one further and ask if it would it then be fair to say that even their great, great grandparents were ethnic Macedonians?

If so, who taught them to be ethnic Macedonians? What made them ethnic Macedonians? Where did their ethnic Macedonian identity come from?

Did the French teach it to them? Or was it their parents/grandparents and so on?


So let's get some numbers in here.
I will assume you are 30 years old and the average generation gap is 22 years.
Your parents would be about 53?
Your grandparents about 75?
Your great-grandparents, if they are still alive, would be about 97. Perhaps born between 1910 - 1915?

So their great grandparents would have been born roughly around the 1840's to 1850's and
THEIR great-grandparents would have been born, roughly speaking, in the 1780's.

Would you agree, or do you find it plausible that in the 1780's, your ancestors (that's 9 generations ago) would have been and could have been ethnic Macedonians? If not, then when did your ancestors, in which generation, change their entire identity and start calling themselves Macedonians (without basis)?

If they were ethnic Macedonians, then I'd like to ask you what happened between 1593 and 1780.

As I am sure you are aware, Macedonia was occupied by the Ottomans during this entire period, yet there are historical sources citing a Stamp of the Kingdom of Macedonia which was being used to imprint letters as early (or late) as 1593.

[julie]

I managed to name over 20 cultural/religious groups living in the Macedonia of 1900. As for those who lived in Greece of 1830; Orthodox Greeks, Muslims Turks, Orthodox Albanians/Arvanites, Muslim Greeks, Orthodox Aromanians (if there were any in the extreme north of the country), Catholic Greeks, Jewish Romaniots and Orthodox Armenians. Have I missed any out? I do not have time to go trawling through the internet looking for sources, however I am sure that you will bombard me with many showing the truly Albanian nature of the Greek state etc. etc. My point is that Macedonia of 1900 was less ethnically homogenous in regards to the number of different cultures coexisting and operating (not like in the case of Greece of 1830 where is was largely Greek with some Albanian).

Although I do not like it, the Wikipedia page [Demographic history of Macedonia] gives a number of different views regarding the ethnic composition of Macedonia at the time and will save me listing them all here.



What argument? That Macedonia was a "mixed salad"? It has been for hundreds of years and hopefully will always be. Are you suggesting that it is not a 'mixed salad'?



You are right about us having the greatest share of the legacy of the Ancient Macedonians. Does this make them us? No. We are own people only partly descended from them with our own language and culture, these people lived 2000 years ago for heavens sake. Should we be proud of them? Yes, of course they are apart of our history. Should we live in their shadow? No, we have no reason to live in the shadow of a people who disapeared thousands of years ago. I reject the notion of some claiming that we are the direct and "cisti" descendants of these people. Interesting how we try to avoid claiming descent from less glorious nations who ruled over Macedonia, sadly many people are obsessed with competing with the prostotija which is espoused by many Greeks, in some sort of attempt of proving how much older/better we are then them, when in reality we should look to the present rather then the past to do this.



In the case of titles technicalities are relevant. Marko was the King of Prilep and ruled that Kingdom. The only such Kingdom of Macedonia/Macedon was the one that existed in the ancient era. As for your RoM example, Mount Athos could declare independance tomorrow it too would be a "Macedonian state", but unlike RoM it wouldn't be an "ethnic Macedonian State".



Stefan Dushan's capital was in the Macedonian city of Skopje. He proclaimed himself emperor in Ser. Does this mean that he was somebody with no ties to the region? Does this mean he was ethnically Macedonian? No, such a concept didn't exist back then. Neither did other modern concepts of nationalism such as being "ethnically Greek" or "ethnically Bulgarian" (before somebody accuses me of working for their interests). Constantine Dragas probably ruled a similar amount of Macedonia as did Krale Marko, we dont suddenly claim direct descendence from his realm either.



Of course he is relevant to us, our nation state occupies the area which his realm did 600 years ago. I am not suggesting that we shouldn't be proud of him however I am suggesting that we should treat him as a medieval Macedonian, not an 'ethnic Macedonian', there is a difference. Ideologies such as Macedonism/Macedonian nationalism, Serbian nationalism etc. etc. simply did not exist back then and it is these ideas that have given rise to people calling themselves 'ethnically this' or 'ethnically that'.

I disagree with you in regards to Macedonian identity as not being a movement. Personally I believe that the nationalism/ethnic identity assertion of the past/present will eventually give way to much broader identifiers which is already happening in many parts of the world for example. 1. due to mass intermarriage between different groups and 2. the arising of pan-ethnicity and regional affiliation above that of national ones. All movements run their course (nationalism being one) and if conflict doesn't break out to reassert this nationalism and patriotism (as is the case across history), there is no reason to suggest that maybe in 100 years time our great-grandchildren will identify firstly not as ethnically this or that but as "European", "Australian", "American".

Can you then please explain Tsar Samuil? Who was he the king of which kingdom/state?

[julie]

ps. everyone keeps questioning me about who has the right to inherit the history of the people who lived in macedonia in the past. The Macedonian people do of course, however what I am saying I do not feel it is correct to label people from the past as belonging to a certain ethnic group when such a notion was not present in their lifetime, this goes for all histories. This is what our neighbours have done and this is why their history is generally bullshit in a textual form.

Like the Bulgarians being Turkish heathens alongside the HellAss.

[Soldier of Macedon]

This whole quote only refers to the existence of a State with that name, not having any implications or inference on the historical relevance of the names, but of the states. So please next time quote my whole statement and don't try to make inferences on fragments taken out of context.

You wrote "Greece only officially used the name Hellas in 1832 " - This implies that it was used 'unofficially' prior to that point, any normal person can see that, except the person who apparently wrote it. Don't waste my time with your backtrack games, Buktop, perhaps next time you should write what you're thinking accurately rather than trying to lay blame on others for your own shortcomings.

you obviously don't understand anything I have commented on in this thread, or you have not read anything simply out of spite. I am sorry you let our differing views on UMD affect any subject I comment on and your ability to apply reason to my arguments rather than relying on your predispositions.

You're the one who lost credibility due to your charade of a defence of the UMD, don't be sorry for me, it is you who deserves the pity for your inability to take the UMD blinkers off.

[Soldier of Macedon]

They too were ethnic Macedonians.

Were they self-loathing and depreciating of their Macedonian heritage like you are?

[Buktop]

You wrote "Greece only officially used the name Hellas in 1832 " - This implies that it was used 'unofficially' prior to that point, any normal person can see that, except the person who apparently wrote it. Don't waste my time with your backtrack games, Buktop, perhaps next time you should write what you're thinking accurately rather than trying to lay blame on others for your own shortcomings.

It does not imply anything of the sort, if you insist on taking the quote out of context I cannot be blamed for misconceptions.

You're the one who lost credibility due to your charade of a defence of the UMD, don't be sorry for me, it is you who deserves the pity for your inability to take the UMD blinkers off.

Sorry, but I wasn't the one chasing you up and down the forum trying to lure you into a repetitive argument over an admitted mistake. It still doesn't matter what I think or say because I am an anti-Macedonian UMD apologist, who only advocates US foreign policy, living a life of ignorant, stubborn, values and ideas. I should really be taking notes on how to be a real Macedonian from people on this forum, vilifying other Macedonians because of an opinion... If my blinkers were on, it was because you turned them on.

[Daskalot]

Mastika, you sound so NOT Macedonian more like a Greek or Bulgarian posing to be a Macedonian. Od koj mesto si?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Sorry, but I wasn't the one chasing you up and down the forum trying to lure you into a repetitive argument over an admitted mistake. It still doesn't matter what I think or say because I am an anti-Macedonian UMD apologist, who only advocates US foreign policy, living a life of ignorant, stubborn, values and ideas. I should really be taking notes on how to be a real Macedonian from people on this forum, vilifying other Macedonians because of an opinion... If my blinkers were on, it was because you turned them on.

Spare me the apologies and tears, and your confused ideas of perception. You're a UMD apologist, there is no denying that, don't let that get in the way of a good Serb dance though, mate. Pitiful.

It does not imply anything of the sort........

People can judge for themselves by what you wrote, only officially, but if the above re-interpretation makes you feel better then go for it champ. I just want to know, going back to my earlier inquiry with yourself, now that you have back-flipped, do you believe that people were using the name Hellas and Hellenes (unofficial or otherwise) prior to the creation of the modern Greek state? It really is a simple question, which you could have answered earlier rather than behaving like a patient of paranoia.

[Buktop]

Spare me the apologies and tears, and your confused ideas of perception. You're a UMD apologist, there is no denying that, don't let that get in the way of a good Serb dance though, mate. Pitiful.

once again bringing the discussion down to a mudslinging match when the discussion doesn't have anything to do with UMD or my opinion of them. What is pitiful is your fixation with UMD and myself. Why don't you bother commenting on the founding of the Macedonian state? Or do you not have anything relevant to add to the conversation?

People can judge for themselves by what you wrote, only officially, but if the above re-interpretation makes you feel better then go for it champ.

Yes they can judge, by reading the entire quote and not taking it out of context.

I just want to know, going back to my earlier inquiry with yourself, now that you have back-flipped, do you believe that people were using the name Hellas and Hellenes (unofficial or otherwise) prior to the creation of the modern Greek state? It really is a simple question, which you could have answered earlier rather than behaving like a patient of paranoia.

It is a simple question, one that is off topic, irrelevant, and a question that you asked based on one word in the post I referred you to, rather than commenting on the topic at hand. To the best of my knowledge, the terms Hellas and Hellenes were not in use prior to the founding of the modern Greek state.