Zoran Vraniskovski proposes Slav Macedonia

[Buktop]

Buktop, you are pouring gasoline on our neighbors fire, in my honorable opinion.
What is your aim? What are you striving to accomplish with this debate?

My point is that the existence of a State is irrelevant when concerning an Identity or a History. To create these absurd notions that there has been a continuous Macedonian *State since antiquity merely lowers our standards of knowledge and makes us no better than the Greeks. I joined this debate based on some comments made between Volk and Vangelovski, upon giving my opinion, several forum members jumped in without even reading what I wrote, said I was attacking or spitting on Macedonian history and confirming Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian claims. If you read post #65, page 7 of this thread you will understand my point. The Macedonian State was founded in 1944, the Identity and the territory has existed continuously, not the State. We should not be forced to alter history because of some fanatics who cannot understand that the creation of a State does not mean that the Identity also was "created".

* A State, as has been pointed out several times in this thread is an Autonomous, Self governed, Political entity.

[Daskalot]

My point is that the existence of a State is irrelevant when concerning an Identity or a History. To create these absurd notions that there has been a continuous Macedonian *State since antiquity merely lowers our standards of knowledge and makes us no better than the Greeks. I joined this debate based on some comments made between Volk and Vangelovski, upon giving my opinion, several forum members jumped in without even reading what I wrote, said I was attacking or spitting on Macedonian history and confirming Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian claims. If you read post #65, page 7 of this thread you will understand my point. The Macedonian State was founded in 1944, the Identity and the territory has existed continuously, not the State. We should not be forced to alter history because of some fanatics who cannot understand that the creation of a State does not mean that the Identity also was "created".

* A State, as has been pointed out several times in this thread is an Autonomous, Self governed, Political entity.

I am quite aware of this, however the Macedonian state was formed in 1944 and became a Republic in Federal Yugoslavia in 1946.
But you see, this is how our dear neighbors like to see it, the Macedonian State was "created" and Tito also "created" us Macedonians with the stroke of a pen.
On the contrary the Macedonian State was created as a result of the will of the Macedonian people.

[El Bre]

Are you people arguing just for the sake of having an argument?

TM's definition is clear. Now extrapolate

[El Bre]

If someone is going to stand up and say that the Macedonian State was created in 1944, then, in the same breath they must also state that the Macedonian Nation has existed far longer. Anything short of that is only telling half the story and that's what Daskalot was talking about in his last post.

[Buktop]

I am quite aware of this, however the Macedonian state was formed in 1944 and became a Republic in Federal Yugoslavia in 1946.
But you see, this is how our dear neighbors like to see it, the Macedonian State was "created" and Tito also "created" us Macedonians with the stroke of a pen.
On the contrary the Macedonian State was created as a result of the will of the Macedonian people.

If you read every post of mine in this thread you will see that I have stated this numerous times

[Buktop]

If someone is going to stand up and say that the Macedonian State was created in 1944, then, in the same breath they must also state that the Macedonian Nation has existed far longer. Anything short of that is only telling half the story and that's what Daskalot was talking about in his last post.

I have done so, please feel free to browse my posts in this topic.

[El Bre]

Actually, I wasn't referring to you Bucktop, it was directed at people of influence who's quotes could be manipulated by those who aim to negate the Macedonian Nation.

[TrueMacedonian]

Exactly El Bre. The Macedonian State of our time only came into being in the 20th century. Obviously there was one in antiquity as well as Samoil's empire. But the Macedonian Nation has existed way longer. Vangelovski may know who Konstantin Symmons-Symonolewicz is. I'll post something later regarding his definition of a Nation.

[TrueMacedonian]

Definition of a Nation;

A territorily-based community of human beings sharing a distinct variant of modern culture, bound together by a strong sentiment of unity and solidarity, marked by a clear historically-rooted consciousness of national identity,and possessing, or striving to possess, a genuine political self-government.

Konstantin Symmons-Symonolewicz

[TrueMacedonian]

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3051

Daskalot's recent post on Macedonia being a Nation within the Yugoslav State is a good topic to look at. There are many many topics in the history section that show Macedonians from all eras fighting for freedom. Look at what happened during WWII when Macedonian Autonomists scared the Bulgarians and Tito when they were declaring their right for freedom. Any fool nowadays that still preaches the business that Tito "created" or "invented" Macedonia or the Macedonians is in for a very rude awakening if he/she crosses paths with this forum.

[Bratot]

The point is not about recognition by other states, it is about it's actual existence. Since when has there existed a self governing autonomous political entity called Macedonia?

You are the only one here disputing a state in modern meaning, if you haven't noticed.

If you hold strictly onto definitions among which there are several different viewpoints and none can be accepted as ultimately right than your just a subject of succeful convincing, but not a right side.

The state can be defined as it was by several doctrines all chronologically and substantly different.

The purpose of this discussion did not intented an involvment in academic lecturing but since you insist attending this discussion you better sit and do your homework first.

The genesis of the definition of a state starts with Aristotel, Plato and Cicero, it continued with medieval doctrins 1.teological by St. Augustin and St. Tomas 2. pathriarchal by Robert Filmer 3. patrimonial led by Ludwig van Heller and later you have the recent or modern doctrins founded by Spinoza, T.Hobbes, J. Locke and J.J.Rousseau. Their opponents were E.Dhtringa and L. Gumplowicz.


You can define 5 types of definitions of a state:

1. Functional of XVII cent. led by Hugo Grotius and continuated by J.R.Pennock and D.G.Smith
2. Elementary - structural def. by Georg Jellinek (most popular)
3. Psychological def. founded by Leon Petrażycki
4. Sociological by W.Wesołowski very close to the approach of Aristotel
5.'Class' definition of K. Marks and F.Engels.


So, if you think the only problem in our discussion is a DEFINITION than here we are... I will wait for you to decide which one is accurate since obviously for you there is no use in using your own brain but following as mule and understanding nothing of what you follow.


What now... we gonna run to the library and study or it's maybe way too late for that or we can simply agree that we cannot agree ?


I was underlining something different than just a definition but even if we chose to follow them there is nothing unchangably defined for eternity.

If you read what I posted before, but carefully and not in a hury to replay the opposite maybe we can set this discussion as gentelments do or you will remain on the dumb-deaf side.

[Bratot]

Definition of a Nation;

A territorily-based community of human beings sharing a distinct variant of modern culture, bound together by a strong sentiment of unity and solidarity, marked by a clear historically-rooted consciousness of national identity,and possessing, or striving to possess, a genuine political self-government.

Konstantin Symmons-Symonolewicz

Very good one I must agree.

[indigen]

I would also add that in 2003 the RoM & Diaspora celebrated 100 years of statehood - do you remember?
My Uncle traced our family tree back to the beginning of our village, some 200-300 years ago - Macedonian run by Macedonians!
But I prefer Mikails response - Macedonia has been a state thousands of years!

100 godini makedonska drzhavnost - 100 years of Macedonian statehood WAS an SDSm (and other sellouts) imposed slogan that many Macedonian patriots REJECTED and BOYCOTTED for EXACTLY the same reason that you say you prefer - MACDONIAN STATEHOOD TRADITION BEING OLDER THAN 2500 YEARS!

[Vangelovski]

Great, now perhaps you could tell me in your own opinion how my definition and analysis of the term State differ from anyone of these authors, I have actually read works from several of the authors.

Buktop,

If you had read and understood any of these books, you wouldn't be putting forward your made up definitions (perhaps a concoction of google/dictionary/wikipedia info) that you are.

This is the second occasion that I have genuienly provided you with good reasearch material and you have ignored it in order to maintain your blind faith in yourself.

[Vangelovski]

The point is not about recognition by other states, it is about it's actual existence. Since when has there existed a self governing autonomous political entity called Macedonia?

There was on in ancient times...from circa 800 BC to circa 145 BC. This is exactly what the Metovisti like yourself ignore, while preferring the "self-governing autonomous political entity called Macedonia" that was established in 1944.