Zoran Vraniskovski proposes Slav Macedonia

[Mikail]

I would suggest you do some research on Yugoslavia before you start making sweeping generalizations. If you wish to discuss the Macedonian state under the Yugoslav Federation perhaps we should start another topic where I would be happy to share some riveting information with you.

Sorry bud but you are the one who has brought the discussion to here. I was replying to your statements.

[TrueMacedonian]

makedonche said;

Macedonia has been a state thousands of years!

Officially or Un-officially? lol man I'm becoming the catchphrase king here lol

[Buktop]

Thank you TM! Very valuable input!

We continue to chase our tales in semantics. Macedonian states or kingdoms officially existed through history and history shows us Macedonians always desired autonomy.

The events surrounding 1944 is another chapter in her history.

Buktop, do you want to see us all bow to Tito? is this it?

Is this some kind of joke?

[Mikail]

You're a lost cause. Sorry that you can't find your way back.

[Pelister]

Is this some kind of joke?

No your the joke.

Here it is again in case you "missed" it.

Aren't you one for taking things out of context.

The original issue I raised was Meto saying Macedonia has only been a country since 1994. He used the term "country" - not State and not Government.

The Macedonians were largely GOVERNING their own affairs at the local level during the Ottoman Era. Jane Sandanski was more than just a rebel - He "Governed" a large part of Macedonia in all areas of government, legal, municipal ... such things as sanitation, roads, schooling ...etc. The Pirin region operated "as a Macedonian State within a State" for decades before 1913 and before 1944.

Your response I assume was that the Macedonian State and Government was first "founded"/"created" in 1944. A State and Government was created in 1944, but it was by no means the first, as Meto suggested, and as your suggesting now. What is it with you morons? Does something need to be recognized in shape and form by the West - as Western - for you to believe it is real?

The first Macedonian State and the first Macedonian government was not founded/created in 1944. This is what Greeks would have us believe, and this is the kind of bullshit historical revisionism being pushed by UMD and yourself, Buktop. The way You and UMD take facts out of their historical context is a problem for all of us. I know that UMD has this moronic belief Politics "is above history" and I know you believe it too.

[Vangelovski]

You still haven't posted the list?!?! Whats taking so long? Perhaps you should have just chosen one or two books and then maybe we could get on with our lives?

Buktop, I'm at work - live in a different time zone you know - it doesn't all revolve around New Jersey. But the question is will you actually read them or will you continue your uninformed nonsense?

[makedonche]

makedonche said;


Officially or Un-officially? lol man I'm becoming the catchphrase king here lol

TM
I like it - catchphrase king- Graham Kennedy's partner - lol!
Ofiicially according to the Macedonians!(who cares what anyone else thinks)
If that doesn't fit in with anyone else's interpretation then can they please explain in what year, month,day,hour did the term "oficially" become the standard measuring tool by which villages/cities/states/nations were deemed to exist as such?

[TrueMacedonian]

TM
I like it - catchphrase king- Graham Kennedy's partner - lol!
Ofiicially according to the Macedonians!(who cares what anyone else thinks)
If that doesn't fit in with anyone else's interpretation then can they please explain in what year, month,day,hour did the term "oficially" become the standard measuring tool by which villages/cities/states/nations were deemed to exist as such?

I can agree with you because the evidence suggests that the name 'Macedonia' for the actual country was used "un-officially" by Macedonians and regionals and sometimes outsiders. In some rare cases Macedonians expressed themselves as such during this time.

Officially, under Empirical or Fascist or Communist governments alike, Macedonia was not continuosly used. We see these things as Macedonians would. Outsiders would probably have a differing view.

[Buktop]

No your the joke.

Here it is again in case you "missed" it.

Aren't you one for taking things out of context.

Excuse me Pelister, but I believe you missed the entire point of the argument here.

The original issue I raised was Meto saying Macedonia has only been a country since 1994. He used the term "country" - not State and not Government.

I am discussing the founding of a Macedonian State, not about Meto or UMD. I also never commented on any issue you raised in this thread.

The Macedonians were largely GOVERNING their own affairs at the local level during the Ottoman Era. Jane Sandanski was more than just a rebel - He "Governed" a large part of Macedonia in all areas of government, legal, municipal ... such things as sanitation, roads, schooling ...etc. The Pirin region operated "as a Macedonian State within a State" for decades before 1913 and before 1944.

State refers to the set of governing and supportive institutions that have sovereignty over a definite territory and population. The word is often used in a strict sense to refer only to modern political systems. Local level does not constitute a state. Especially when it is not a sovereign entity, the state did not exist.

Your response I assume was that the Macedonian State and Government was first "founded"/"created" in 1944. A State and Government was created in 1944, but it was by no means the first, as Meto suggested, and as your suggesting now. What is it with you morons? Does something need to be recognized in shape and form by the West - as Western - for you to believe it is real?

Get a dictionary and look up the definition of the word State, or do they not have dictionaries in lala land? Better yet, why don't you Wikipedia the word State, that might be a little easier for you.

The first Macedonian State and the first Macedonian government was not founded/created in 1944. This is what Greeks would have us believe, and this is the kind of bullshit historical revisionism being pushed by UMD and yourself, Buktop. The way You and UMD take facts out of their historical context is a problem for all of us. I know that UMD has this moronic belief Politics "is above history" and I know you believe it too.

You are the damn revisionist! I don't even know why I am arguing with someone who doesn't even know how to look up the definition of the word state... I'll quote something right up your alley from wikipedia for you.

Fascists and some nationalist ideologies view the state as an organic body synonymous with the cultural construct of the nation.

[Mikail]

I can agree with you because the evidence suggests that the name 'Macedonia' for the actual country was used "un-officially" by Macedonians and regionals and sometimes outsiders. In some rare cases Macedonians expressed themselves as such during this time.

Officially, under Empirical or Fascist or Communist governments alike, Macedonia was not continuosly used. We see these things as Macedonians would. Outsiders would probably have a differing view.

Come on TM, pull out theand lay some truths on us brat!

[TrueMacedonian]

Here's one I've been researching in my spare time looking for more info;

http://www.perast.com/html-ENGLESKI/characters.html

VICKO ZMAJEVIC(1670-1745): He was a nephew of Andrija Zmajevic. He was born in Perast on December 23, 1670. He received a doctorate in philosophy and theology in 1685.
In 1695 (-1701), he became an abbot of the Abbey of St. George situated on the island of that name near Perast, as well as the parish priest of Perast. On April 18, 1701, pope Clement XI appointed him Archbishop of Bar. He was also entrusted with the duty of the Apostolic Nuncio for Arbania, Macedonia and Serbia. He was ordained as a bishop in the Church of St. Nicholas in Perast, by Marin Drago, a bishop of Kotor. The bishopric of Budva was also under his jurisdiction.
In 1702, he convened a people’s church assembly in Mrkinje, which was attended by the Perast Archbishop Zumi, Skoplje Archbishop Karagic, 4 Arbanian bishops, the prefect of the Albanian missions, Egidio Armentki, and the Macedonian prefect, Frano M. Licijski. In 1706, he retired to Perast where he lived in the family palace.
On May 22, 1713, he was transferred to the Zadar Archbishopric.
He built a parish church in a village near Zadar, repaired the roof on the Byzantine Church of St. Donate, and donated two altars and the floor in the chapel of Our Lady of Health.
He supported writers and collected folk poetry. He was exceptionally talented poet himself. As a boy, between 12 and 15 years of age, before the studies of theology, and probably under the influence of his uncle Andrija, he wrote sermons, of which particularly impressive are the Christmas Sermon in 1682 and 1683, and the sermons dedicated to Mary’s Assumption. In 1694, he published a collection of Latin poems “Musarum Chorus in Laudem Antoni Zeni”. He also wrote “Specchio della Verita” (The Mirror of the Truth) in 12 chapters. He made edeavours to publish the “Church Chronicle” proposing it to be published in our language in which it was apparently originally written.
He died on September 11, 1745, and was buried in Our Lady of the Castle in Zadar.

[makedonche]

Can you tell me where the Macedonian state was from 1903-1944?

I'll use your technique here!
Can you tell me what the RoM was celebrating on the 2/8/2003?

[Mastika]

Mastika
here is Bratot's initial post:

"If one does not seek to provide counter arguments of Greek that Macedonian state was created in 1944 only and the state before belonged to "Greek" origin than he (un)consciously accept a new name-term to differ the Greek from the newly created state of Macedonia.

Probably not many understand my point and argue about third things... however..."

here's your reply:
"What are you trying to say? That we need to make up our own ficticious history in order to reject the Greek point of view. No Thank you. We have our own history, which whether you like it or not, included 500 years of subdugation by the Ottomans, during which time a Macedonian state simply did not exist.

So what if our current state was founded in 1944? Does that make us less of a people then the Greeks whose own country was only founded some 114 years before ours? No it does not. We are our own people and we achieved our own self-determination in our own time. As Macedonian people we should not be less proud of the actions surrounding the foundation of our country and the brave partisans who liberated Macedonia from fasicist rule just because some Greeks south of the border believe that it was in that year (1944) that we suddenly emerged as an ethnic group."

My response:
"Please explain how you managed to arrive at this conclusion from Bratot's post? I don't see anywhere that he suggests we make up stories"

Your reply:
"To me it seems like he is suggesting that we find some entity which existed pre-1944 which used the title Macedonia and attach ourselves to it in order to counter Greek claims. Such a nation state is ficticious. Us (the modern ethnic Macedonians) did not have a state before then, called Macedonia.

The Macedonian state was founded in 1944, the Greek in 1822. Does that mean our ethnicity is 70 years old?, and their 180 years old? Of course not! That is just an example of the petty minded neighbours to the south."

My response:
I still can't see how you arrived at either of the conclusions, I understood Bratot to be saying that if we don't question the Greek version of when they say Macedonia was created/became a nation/a state then we unconsciously accept that they are correct and in so doing we add weight to their argument that we are "new" macedonians/slav macedonians, created in 1944 by Tito and therefore should be deemed "Northern Macedonia" to identify us differently to the Macedonians in Greece who are "ancient Macedonians" and therefore Greeks and have always been Greek. Can you see this??????????????

I would also add that in 2003 the RoM & Diaspora celebrated 100 years of statehood - do you remember?
My Uncle traced our family tree back to the beginning of our village, some 200-300 years ago - Macedonian run by Macedonians!
But I prefer Mikails response - Macedonia has been a state thousands of years!

The modern Macedonian "state" was founded in 1944. This is fact, whether people like it or not. There were also attempts to create a state 41 years before, and this too failed. The state was short-lived. Our "nation" however has existed for hundreds of years. I know that, we here all know this. I personally do not feel the need to re-interpret the events of 1944 so as to clear it up for some Greeks. Tito did NOT found our nation, he only helped to create the Macedonian "state". I can see what Brat is saying, however I do not think that we should lower our historical principles just to 'prove' to some confused and political brainwashed greeks that we were not founded in 1944. Any serious non-biased scholar of history knows that we have existed for much longer. The rest of the world knows this, the less we care about what Greeks think, the better.

I do remember that 100 years of statehood was celebrated in 2003. However, a Macedonian state simply did not exist during 1903-1944. The Macedonian nation DID exist though.

As for the last part of your post. Yes the Macedonians may have run the local village amenities etc. 200 years ago. however we were apart of the Ottoman Empire. That was the state that ruled Macedonia for 500 years. Yes some parts of the country were run by the Macedonians, but Macedonia was ruled by the Turks.

I think a good comparison to Macedonia 1913 is Kurdistan 2010. The Kurdish people are a nation without a state. The same goes for Macedonia c.1900, we were a nation, however we had no state of our own.

[Mastika]

The Macedonians were largely GOVERNING their own affairs at the local level during the Ottoman Era. Jane Sandanski was more than just a rebel - He "Governed" a large part of Macedonia in all areas of government, legal, municipal ... such things as sanitation, roads, schooling ...etc. The Pirin region operated "as a Macedonian State within a State" for decades before 1913 and before 1944.

Pelister, just because they were governing their own affairs at a local level doesnt mean that they were in their own state. They were apart of the Ottoman empire. They were subjects of the Sultan. I am struggling to see why people cannot comprehend this?!

Same with Pirin. It was technically apart of the Kingdom of Bulgaria. Their state was Bulgaria, even if they were ethnically Macedonian.

Unless there is some formal declaration of a state existing (seccession) then the state officially doesnt exist.

[Pelister]

The Pirin region has been described as "a State within a State" many times.

The problem here is UMD's and Buktop's very narrow and revisionist definition of what constituese "a State".