Opinion Leaders.

[Boge]

boge i think you are barking up the wrong tree here mate phoenix has never supported either of the lubchos.

I have never accused Phoenix of anything. Read the venom that has been placed towards me. You will then see the anti-Macedonians amongst us.

My role is to question and the voshkari have certainly made their presence felt. This forum has a plague of anti-Macedonian supporters.

So Pocit

Boge

[Boge]

Boge, Are you for real?? Phoenix has never ever supported a name change infact he's attacked anybody who's even thought about doing it, im not sure where you are getting with these accusations. Many people were sucked into Ljube's lies, his website here is still working.

Abe nemam nisto protiv Phoenix. Why is he accusing me of being a certain supporter.

We just have too many ljube supporters who want their opinions to be counted. And for me this ain't going to happen. I know who they are and "by George" they are going to have to work for their opinions.

[aleksandrov]

...His positions changed, almost immediately after gaining power, and that quickly became quite evident, even his closest supporters dropped him for the traitor that he is...

Georgievski's formal change of position was announced at the 1995 VMRO-DPMNE Congress, when he declared that the party could not come to power with a patriotic ideology and that from then on he would adopt 'pragmatic' politics (as if you can't be a pragmatic patriot). This was immediately followed by a constitutional redefinition of the party from a 'national' party to a 'democratic christian' party, by removal of the Macedonian Sun symbol from the party's flag and coat of arms, by a coalition with the Albanian nationalist separatists of DPA, and by the party becoming an obedient servant to US interests in Macedonia and the Balkans. A short time later, there was an ugly split within the party between the 'Bulgarian' wing, led by Georgievski and Dosta Dimovska, and a 'Macedonian' wing, led by Boris Zmejkovski (the then General Secretary of the party). Zmejkovski's wing lost, but many DPMNE members who may not have subscribed to Georgievski's view that the Macedonian nation is a new creation descending from Bulgarians stayed with their leader out of sheer opportunism. All of this happened well before DPMNE first won government in 1998.

None of the members of the DPMNE leadership who were around when Georgievski was premier denounced him as a traitor until well after he lost government power. They only did so after he turned against the successor to the DPMNE leadership he chose himself, Nikola Gruevski, who was a senior Minister, Deputy Premier and DPMNE Executive member during Georgievski's government.

[Risto the Great]

Boge, I have applauded some of Gruevski's actions on occasions. If he sells us out, I would hate to think you will remind me in 10 years time about how much of an anti-Macedonian I have always been. You are being a little mischievous here. What are you really hoping to achieve?

[Vangelovski]

Ohh...I missed this. You too are a Brat ljube supporter. Ajde or is hypocrisy your middle name. Mate just go back on your statements, shit you freely give one out.

Pozdrav

Boge

Post any statements of mine that you think are supporting "Brat Lube" as opposed to supporting the Macedonian war effort against extremists.

Boge, its quite obvious that you are either a UMD Board member or cheerleader making a pathetic attempt to take the 'heat' of UMD and the great wiz kid, by naming UMD's biggest critics in your first post. A very disengenious and desparate attempt (maybe authorised by your master) to discredit those who question UMD's motives and policies. First, we were all jealous, egotistic and I don't recall the rest. Now, we supposedly supported Brat Lube the man (as opposed to the policies - or some of them - that he previously espoused) and therefore automatically support whatever comes out of his mouth. I think that is UMDism that you are referring to - not critical thinking.

[osiris]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
I don't support anyones stance for a name change...

Why are you such a hard core UMD supporter...?
You're the brat Ljube supporter who Supports a Name change.

Phoenix,
Why would you want our Macedonian Name to be changed?

and now you say

Quote:
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
boge i think you are barking up the wrong tree here mate phoenix has never supported either of the lubchos.
I have never accused Phoenix of anything. Read the venom that has been placed towards me. You will then see the anti-Macedonians amongst us.

My role is to question and the voshkari have certainly made their presence felt. This forum has a plague of anti-Macedonian supporters.

So Pocit

Boge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prolet View Post
Boge, Are you for real?? Phoenix has never ever supported a name change infact he's attacked anybody who's even thought about doing it, im not sure where you are getting with these accusations. Many people were sucked into Ljube's lies, his website here is still working.
Abe nemam nisto protiv Phoenix. Why is he accusing me of being a certain supporter.

We just have too many ljube supporters who want their opinions to be counted. And for me this ain't going to happen. I know who they are and "by George" they are going to have to work for their opinions.
Boge is offline Add to Boge's Reputation Report Post Reply With Quote

thats the type of flip flopping that characterizes many umd supporters

[osiris]

many people we sucked in by the 2 amigos and many are being sucked in by meto the messiah. i dont think you do yourself credit by attacking people as anti macedonian, its a cheap shot and patently untrue.

if you do come to the dinner come and introduce yourself. i think deep down there is a good patriot inside you

[Rogi]

Well Boge, you created this thread with a very clear intent. Your intent, as evident by your initial post, was to implicate fellow Macedonians and label them as anti-Macedonian based on your (mis)understanding of events.

Now, this can only be seen as an attack, and that merits a reponse or defense, and likely a counter-attack.

You expected as much, you are aware that there is no patriotic hearted Macedonian who will stand to be labelled as anything other than what he, or she is; a patriotic Macedonian.

In my original post, which I have since edited, I also did the same to you (with insinuations or assumptions about your support for Tito) because you left no grounds for gentlemanly conduct.

Your post was not to generate discussion. Had your intent been discussion, rather than implication and attack, then you would have created the discussion in a gentlemanly manner, and moreover you too would have responded with more than one line responses.

So, where do we go from here?

If you would like a real discussion, then drop your baseless implications and accusations and instead ask sincere questions to which I would be happy to offer an explanation of where I personally stand on any matter, as well as my mistakes (of naivety in supporting what seemed to be fellow patriots at the time) which I accept, and why and how things have changed over the last 20 or so years.



I do not shy away that as a 6 year old I supported Ljubco Georgievski in 1990. I did. He was calling for Macedonian independence, united Macedonians, a united Macedonia (albeit in the realm of a Europe without borders), he was even proposing the currency to be called the Stater (ancient Macedonian currency, based on a view that we are descendants of the ancient Macedonians).

I shared these exact views, it was a no-brainer that I would support a Macedonian who seemed, at the time, to share the exact same views and (alarmingly) one of very, very few in Macedonia at the time who would do so publicly (immediately before and after independence).

Then SDSM came to power and changed the name. This moved most patriotic Macedonians even closer to VMRO-DPMNE, even if they were not previously supporters of VMRO-DPMNE and solidified an even blind support for VMRO-DPMNE as the only group to oppose a name change.

Shortly thereafter, things began to clear up inside VMRO-DPMNe as well and, as Alexandrov rightly pointed out, factions formed between Georgievski and Dimovska as the Bugarofil's and the Macedonians like Zmejovski. When VMRO-DPMNE's official policy changed and became soft, there was considerable opposition to it and that seemed to solidify a division.

Some of us were somewhat naive about pro-Bulgarian of Ljubco Georgievski, or did not want to believe them given his very patriotic positions until then.

When VMRO-DPMNE came to power in 1998, it very shortly thereafter became more and more clear who and what Ljubco Georgievski was.

In 1999 he signed a joint declaration with Bulgaria which basically sold out the Macedonains in Bulgaria, declaring that the Republic of Macedonia will not seek to defend their rights; much like the Constitutional ammendment years prior, to appease Greece.

That was enough for Georgievski to lose the dedicated support that he had until then, though he still had support (from the pro-Bulgarian wing and from those who, naively, had some belief that the declaration was a political tool but meant little, and those who were unaware of the joint declaration).

From then onwards, it was a matter of having no alternative option (SDSM was the alternative, but they were vehemently anti-Macedonian and by now all could see that clear) other than the Macedonian wing inside VMRO-DPMNE.

This is where I admit a mistake in naively having supported someone until this time, by believing they trully shared the patriotic views and support for the Macedonian Cause, only for it later to be evident that they were in effect a corrupt and criminal pro-Bulgarian traitor.


Boris Trajkovski won the election later that year and the entire focus turned away from what was going on inside Macedonia, to what was going on around Macedonia (in Kosovo) and that shortly spilled over to Macedonia.

Macedonia was by now, at war.

This is when, at least for me, Ljube Boskovski came into the picture.

He was ready to defend Macedonia and unafraid to order the attacks necessary. He was clear and outspoken and made it known that Boris Trajkovski was too afraid to allow the Macedonain soldiers to defend themselves.

Boskovski as interior minister offered immediate Macedonian citizenship to many, many Macedonians in Albania.

In secret, he had weapons given to many Macedonians so they could defend themselves from the Albanian terrorists.

He was defending Macedonia and this had to be respected. He gave no indication of anything un-patriotic at this time - if you did not like him, that may have been for your personal reasons or that you didn't like his character, but you couldn't say, at the time, that you didn't like him because he was 'anti-Macedonian', for at the time, he was not.

He openly opposed the resulting Framework Agreement (as did Georgievski, hypocritically, whilst signing it) and his opposition to that treasonous document is what caused him to be sent to jail, by his own people (Macedonians). By now, all he had done was defend Macedonia from terrorists.

I don't see why you wouldn't support him at this point, to assist in the defense of a fellow Macedonian who has done nothing but defend Macedonia.

So support for Boskovski grew among most Macedonians, including myself and justifiably so.

Then, years later, he came back from the Hague and seeing the support he had, decided to get involved in politics. At the time, he still had my support because until this point he was a Macedonian patriot.

It was very shortly thereafter that he made some statements about changing the Macedonian name, which were in stark contradiction to his statements 5 years prior. So his views had clearly changed and that was it. He lost all his support in an instant. There was not going to be naivety this time around as there was with Georgievski.


In the meantime, in came Gruevski. Now, he had a lot of support from many many Macedonians, in fact more support than anyone before.

Even many former SDSM activists, involved heavily in that party, left and supported Gruevski.

If Georgievski and Boskovski were able to gather mostly chest-beaters and few intellects, Gruevski tapped into the Macedonian intelligentsia as well.

He was saying all the right things wasn't he, making all the right promises and there was nothing un-patriotic about anything he was saying. So, once again I decided someone was worthy of support.

Until 1.5 years later, when he formed a coalition with the terrorists who attacked Macedonia (reincarnated as DUI). That's when I withdrew all support for Gruevski and VMRO-DPMNE because forming a coalition or 'alliance' with anti-Macedonians, is very much against the Macedonian Cause.

I will go one further. In 2007 I became involved with UMD and became a Board Member.

This was one excellent organisation, well structured, professional, young, enthusiastic, and most importantly, from what I could discover, it shared views that were in line of what I defined as the Macedonian Cause (which has now since been defined in writing in a thread on this forum).

But then, as I've seen happen all to often over time, things changed. I heard and read some statements from my fellow colleagues that expressed support for a name change and while one of my fellow colleages at UMD immediately resigned (despite my calls to stay on and help fix/change things) while I remained hoping to steer things differently.

I didn't, or couldn't and I subsequently lost motivation, and so I resigned. That was 4 months ago. But, unlike you have done in your initial post, I won't attack anyone who continues to support UMD because, I know that we all see things clearer at different times and you may be supporting anyone, while you believe they are supporting the Macedonian Cause.


So yes, I have offered moral support to different organisations at different times led by different individuals (VMRO-DPMNE under Georgievski, Boskovski to be released from jail, VMRO-DPMNE under Gruevski and UMD) with the belief that at the time of my support the shared my views and support for the Macedonian Cause; only to find all of them eventually deter from the course of the Macedonian Cause.

I was hoping they would all remain staunch and absolute, perhaps I was naive, perhaps I want there to be a Macedonain organisation that will forever remain patriotic and unswayed and never deter from the Macedonian Cause.


Throughout all of this, you will see, that I am unafraid and very willing to support a fellow Macedonian who is working in line with the Macedonian Cause.

I do not, and will not ever believe this to be a bad thing.

When they deter from the Macedonian Cause, they a dropped immediately because my support is not for the individual or the organisation, but rather for the ideology of the Macedonian Cause.

If this is not understood, I have nothing further to offer you in this discussion.


Perhaps you can share your story too.

[osiris]

well put rogi but i think we are all wasting our time with boge he is as you say not here to discuss but to denigrate.

[Prolet]

Rogi, Thanks for sharing your story however some of the things are not as simple as you seem them to be. I really dont understand what you expect from Gruevski when you fully know that he must form a coalition with an Albanian Party and its always a choice between the Snake and the Donkey, so it seems like Gruevski was good when he was aligned with Menduh Tachi but he was no good when he decided to ditch Tachi and take Ahmeti on board.

There is no logic to any of this, i can fully support you about Ljubco and Ljube however you are dead wrong about Gruevski. DPA fought in the war too, who could forget Hisni Shakiri from DPA quitting the party then picking up a gun to fight with UCK? It was SDSM who first formed a coalition with DUI while i totally disagree with a coalition with either DUI or DPA i understand it because the Albanians need to be there to make up some kind of a unity government or so be it in order to stabilize the country not that i believe they can make any difference. Im not sure if you recently watched the Vasko Eftov shows there was one about the building of a statue of Dzemo Hasa i even posted links to it, one Albanian Analyst Kim Mehmeti said that all of the posts that DUI hold in Government are not worthy of one secretary, which clearly shows that Grujo isnt buckling to their demands and to me thats a good thing because he has them on a tight leash and the smarter Albanians can see that.

SDSM started the war to get into power and keep in mind that from 2001 till 2002 SDSM was in Coalition with VMRO, either way going back to Ljubco and Ljube the writing was on the wall we were just too blind to see it and when i mean blind i dont mean in the sense that we are stupid i mean in the sense that we were all fooled by his patriotic talks and lies that he fed us but at the same time nobody suspected anything even though it was there to be seen.

Ljube in 2001 was made into some hero, however when you talk to the people who were dealing with him they will tell you different stories about Ljube, you should talk to Ljube's general Stojkov from the Lavoj group and see what you'll get, i havnt spoken to him personally but i have spoken to people close to him and they tell a different story about Ljube in 2001, you know which General i mean the one who was black listed by USA and the one who didnt come to greet Ljube in 2008 when he returned from the Hague.

If anybody watched Ljube's interview on the Kanal 5 program X/0 just recently he is unrecognizable in his speeches.

Now Rogi the UMD, this is something that i've watched carefully in the past, when you first refused to state why you left the Board and i totally understood that because that was your choice then in a brief explanation you stated that you didnt have the time to attend the UMD meetings (not because of the reasons you stated above) while a few days later on the Maknews forum a Prestavnik from UMD i think it was the .org one said that you were no longer on the UMD board however you were well and truly still part of the UMD organization and now you come out and say that you lost interest in the UMD so why didnt you state this at the very beginning when you left the UMD Board? Well before the MTO started to openly question the UMD, Why didnt you raise these concerns before?? You were right there and knew everything that went on in the UMD yet you refused to speak out and remained silent for months and now all of the sudden you're letting the cat out of the bag.

[osiris]

prolet rogi didnt want to detract from metos visit, by posting his resignation from the umd.

georgievki was a bullshitter and a nasty person too, there are stories circulating about his mental problems to me they seemed obvious when he was in australia, but then i am an old and cynical person especially about politicians.

[Prolet]

Osiris, That makes sense in some ways i guess

I totally agree with you about Georgievski, he's a traitor

[Rogi]

Prolet, in that original text I wrote when I left UMD, I stated that there were many reasons and I did not want to divulge them at the time, because I did not feel it was appropriate and given that Meto was to be touring Australia, I did not want to detract from that, rather UMD could more independently see what positions the Australian Macedonian community has on the most critical matters.

I also wrote, as you said, that I didn't have the time to attend the Board meetings and that came about mainly because I had lost the motivation and drive to do so and that drive and motivation was lost because of reasons like the acceptance of a prefix to Macedonia's name (or plainly, a name change). That's not what I believed in and not what I wanted to work toward (directly, indirectly or inadvertently).

I'm not sure who wrote what on maknews, I have not read it, but I haven't been involved with UMD at all since my resignation last year.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Boge, do you have difficulties in distinguishing between "are" and "were", or "do" and "did"? Let me know if you need some help, champ.

Great thread by the way, testiment to your character and intellect, keep up the great work.

[Prolet]

I'll take your word for it Rogi

Maybe one day you'll let us know on the whole story, but thats only when you are ready ofcourse i respect your opinion..