Macedonians and Cretans

[Philosopher]

As of late I have been exploring the issue of a Macedonian-Cretan connection. In past genetic studies I have seen that Cretans tend to have a similar structure as do Macedonians; in fact, most Cretans I have seen tend to have a lighter complexion--lighter than Sicilians and Southern Greeks.

I have also read that in Crete are to be found "Slavic" place names or Slavic language on the island. In the University of Spain study, which has problems, Macedonians are most similar to Cretans and Italians; in other studies, Macedonians and Cretans tend to have similar r1a numbers and e3b.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this connection.

I'm sure to the typical Greek (and Cretan) this is nonsense akin to blasphemy; Heaven forbid there be a connection of Cretans with some Slavic people.

Another interesting matter: notice how Cretan surnames end in "akis" for males and "aki" for females. My research seems to indicate that this was imposed by the Ottomans as a derision on the Cretans; the "kis" ending means "son of" or (little one). Slavic names, however, tend to have "Ski," a form of the ending "kis." Ski in Macedonian means "from" or another form of "Son of," like "ov."

Granted this connection is a reach, to say the least; but I would like your thoughts on it.

Perhaps there is a greater connection betwixt the Cretans and Macedonians than people and researchers have hitherto understood.

Well...

[Spartan]

I have been to Crete on more than afew occasions.
From my experiences, they look either like southern Greeks, or Greeks from the Dodecanisa islands, or a mix of the two.
However, the trait that stuck out to me the most, was the moustaches of the men. They all have very full, long and curling up moustache(handle-bar style). Now I have seen this in many Greeks, but not at the rate I noticed in Crete.
This is just my personal experience, so dont take it as the gospel.

You also mentioned Sicilians. I have also been there as my wife is Sicilian. I would say they are pretty much indistinguishable from Pelloponesians. At my wedding, Im willing to bet nineout of ten people could not tell(from looking) whos side was who. I have even found that Pelloponesians and Sicilians are more alike, than Pelloponesians are to other Greeks. Our diet is identical, as is many of our customs(obviously not religion and language).Also, a point of interest, many Sicilians will not say they are Italian, they say we are Sicilian(my wifes family do at least) Again, these are just my observations.

I hoped this helped you out somewhat

[Philosopher]

Spartan,


Good for you to chat. I'm assuming you're a southern Greek, (A Spartan), tell me something, sine I am quite fascinated by people and I love to learn something new.

What is your take on the Macedonian issue? How do southern Greeks perceive the issue? If you don't mind me asking, how did your wife's side react to the fact you're not Italian? and how did your family react that she is not Greek (or Orthodox for that matter)?

As for Sicilians, I am well aware that they call themselves Sicilian as opposed to Italian. So you'r saying that Cretans tend to be on the darker side, like southern Greeks, in hair and eye and complexion color?

How does Crete compare to the rest of Greece in terms of summer travel or vacation? I've never been but would like to visit Crete.

What is your take on the genetic issues regarding Macedonia, Greece, and Crete?

[Spartan]

Spartan,


Good for you to chat. I'm assuming you're a southern Greek, (A Spartan), tell me something, sine I am quite fascinated by people and I love to learn something new.

1.What is your take on the Macedonian issue?
2. How do southern Greeks perceive the issue?
3.If you don't mind me asking, how did your wife's side react to the fact you're not Italian?
4.and how did your family react that she is not Greek (or Orthodox for that matter)?
As for Sicilians, I am well aware that they call themselves Sicilian as opposed to Italian.
5.So you'r saying that Cretans tend to be on the darker side, like southern Greeks, in hair and eye and complexion color?
6.How does Crete compare to the rest of Greece in terms of summer travel or vacation? I've never been but would like to visit Crete.
7.What is your take on the genetic issues regarding Macedonia, Greece, and Crete?

1.My take is one of neutrality. I dont feel that either of the 2 "versions" of the Macedonian history are at odds with our history in the south, therefore I have no problems with either. Not saying I agree fully with either side.I just formulate my opinion from what makes sense to me(without bias to either side). I was always taught that northern Greece was not Greece "proper", therefore I dont have a vested interest in the plight of my so called "brothers".

2. Like I said above, the outcome is not a big deal in the south, regardless of what side they agree with. I would compare it to a European watching the World cup final between Brazil and Argentina. Does it really matter who wins to us?

3.I dont mind at all.They had absolutely no problem with it, as they explained to me that there are many such unions in Sicily, aned the "culture clash" is very minor.

4.Its funny you ask that. My father told rme from a young age that the only non-Orthodox that is acceptable in the family is Sicilian!(funny it worked out that way, I know).Most Pelloponesians believe we are more akin to Sicilians than some Greeks(as I stated before). He wouldnt want an Italian, but hed probably accept it.

5.From my experience , yes.

6. Crete is fantastic man! Id recommend it to anyone. Nightlife is awesome. Rich in history(ancient-medievel ruins). Weather and beaches are glorious. Locals are very polite. Awesome restauraunts and taverns. Not one complaint do I have with this island. If you ever have the chance, go check it out, and definetely go see the ancient Minoan palace of King Minos, it is very well preserved.

7.Dont know much or care for the genetics my friend. In my opinion, all of the Balkans have absorbed the same cultures into theirs and at the same rate. The proximity of all these regions tells me that this must be the case. With the exception of maybe some islands, as they are harder to access and therefore are isolated , I would think that all of our peoples in the balkans have the same mix of blood, more or less. To me the notion of "purity" is laughable to say the least! Especially in the Balkans, which has been a European "crossroads" throughout history.

Well I hope I answered all your questions to your satisfaction. If you have any more, feel free to ask, as I love this sort of dialogue.
Be well my friend

Spartan

[Philosopher]

Spartan,

Thank you for the reply. Since I'm enjoying our dialogue, I will continue it.

Question: what draws you hither--to this forum? You're a southern Greek who doesn't seem to zealous for the issue in the least. I must admit I respect your moderation and your story.

I agree that the Balkans are very mixed and that there is no pure people in the Balkans. Many years ago Oxford University conducted a study on DNA haplogroups and their frequencies: Greece and Macedonia are most similar in J2e 6.5 and 6.3; most similar in E3b1 24.1 and 21.4; and close in R1a: 15.2 and 12.1. In fact, there is very little difference between Balkan states in general.

My point before with Crete was that Crete is more similar to Macedonia than Greek mainland. I myself do not accept the claims made by some Macedonians in Macedonian forums that Greeks are Turks, Arabs, etc. Although I think, because of the Ottoman Empire, there existed intermixing between turks and balkans people, i don't think modern day Greeks differ much in this respect than Macedonians or Serbs.

I reject the Greek-African link in one genetic study--if you are familiar with that study. On youtube you will find many Albanians posting videos of Greeks who look Arab and Middle Eastern. How accurate is this? Are southern Greeks that dark and short or is this propaganda? I mean I don't expect Mediterranean people to look British but I can't imagine them looking that much different than other southern europeans, whether balkan or sicilian.

In what ways is your diet identical to Sicilians as opposed to Athenians or Cretans? Why did your father object to Italians but not to Sicilians?

How do you regard Western fascination with Athens more so than ancient Sparta? Were the Spartans known for any great works of literature or philosophers, as opposed to just war making?

I ask because the ancient Macedonians produced no lasting literature (or any known literature) but are known for one thing: their conquests. It would seem they either lacked the elegance of a Plato and Aristotle or their works have yet to be discovered.

[Spartan]

Spartan,

Thank you for the reply. Since I'm enjoying our dialogue, I will continue it.

Question: what draws you hither--to this forum? You're a southern Greek who doesn't seem to zealous for the issue in the least. I must admit I respect your moderation and your story.

When I moved to Canada, I found it was a big issue. I have always loved and read histories, and am very interested in this dispute and the history behind it.

I agree that the Balkans are very mixed and that there is no pure people in the Balkans. Many years ago Oxford University conducted a study on DNA haplogroups and their frequencies: Greece and Macedonia are most similar in J2e 6.5 and 6.3; most similar in E3b1 24.1 and 21.4; and close in R1a: 15.2 and 12.1. In fact, there is very little difference between Balkan states in general.

Thats why I dont put too much into the DNA studies. The difference is to miniscule. I have heard an Apes DNA is 97% identical to a Humans. How big could the difference be between people who live in such close proximity?

My point before with Crete was that Crete is more similar to Macedonia than Greek mainland.

I have never been that far north to say its different. I found they have their own unique, but similar to the typical Greek island way of life.

I myself do not accept the claims made by some Macedonians in Macedonian forums that Greeks are Turks, Arabs, etc. Although I think, because of the Ottoman Empire, there existed intermixing between turks and balkans people, i don't think modern day Greeks differ much in this respect than Macedonians or Serbs.

I agree with this as well.

I reject the Greek-African link in one genetic study--if you are familiar with that study. On youtube you will find many Albanians posting videos of Greeks who look Arab and Middle Eastern. How accurate is this?

Id say the Greeks who have the Arabic/middle eastern look are mostly from the islands. The farther east the island, the more you can see it. In Cyprus its very noticable, as Ive been there as well

Are southern Greeks that dark and short or is this propaganda? I mean I don't expect Mediterranean people to look British but I can't imagine them looking that much different than other southern europeans, whether balkan or sicilian.

The degree of darkness varies from person to person, however I would say as you get deeper into the Pelloponese the people are generally darker. Although I have noticed that the northerners are probably taller, I wouldnt say southern Greeks are short.Southern Greeks look like south Mediterranean people, as you said.

In what ways is your diet identical to Sicilians as opposed to Athenians or Cretans?

The terrain, weather and Geogrophy of Sicily and Pelloponese is identical. Some of the fruits and vegetables that grow to the north and on the islands, due to different climates dont grow in the Pellpnse and Sicily. Our diets include predominantly Olives,Lemons,Watermellons, Bread and lamb. The Sicilians are the only Italians who make "Feta" as most of the Balkans and even some Middle east countries do. Athenians could be thrown in there as far as diet is concerned as well. Cretans climate is a little different therefore they grow a larger variety.
Im talking in village and older terms, dont forget, There are supermarkets in all these places and people can buy whatever they want.

Why did your father object to Italians but not to Sicilians?

I think because my Grandather and Father travelled their alot, and they always said they were impressed that when they went to the churches there, the priests sang the liturgy part of the service in the old Greek (katharevousa). However, I dont think it would have gone over well if I told them I was getting married in a Catholic church.

How do you regard Western fascination with Athens more so than ancient Sparta?

To put it simply, they were the brains of Ancient Greece. They produced the majority of artists, Philosephers,Politicians and so on. They were the "Rennaissance" men of ancient Greece.

Were the Spartans known for any great works of literature or philosophers, as opposed to just war making?

Mostly war making.
They excelled in this however, at the same rate the athenians excelled in thinking.Their tactics and training were unrivaled for 350 years.
They produced some of the greatest generals of the time. Some of the best upsets on the battlefield, and were the first society in the world to have a state run school program.They left alot of literature, and sculptures and temples, but not the great ones the Athenians were producing.

I ask because the ancient Macedonians produced no lasting literature (or any known literature) but are known for one thing: their conquests. It would seem they either lacked the elegance of a Plato and Aristotle or their works have yet to be discovered.

Most of the Ancient world in the Balkans at that time lacked this. These are great minds of their time dont forget, they were few and far between, except perhaps in Athens.
Also, dont forget that Philip brought in Aristotle to be the teacher of Alexander,the companions and elite of the Macedonian youth.

[Svoliani]

[QUOTE=Philosopher;3561]
Another interesting matter: notice how Cretan surnames end in "akis" for males and "aki" for females. My research seems to indicate that this was imposed by the Ottomans as a derision on the Cretans; the "kis" ending means "son of" or (little one). Slavic names, however, tend to have "Ski," a form of the ending "kis." Ski in Macedonian means "from" or another form of "Son of," like "ov."
[QUOTE]

Philosopher/Jus

The "akis" suffix is dimunitive, and indicates or means, "The smallest, or littlest." it does not mean 'son of ' . o poulos = son of.
The Turks used this "akis" suffix to belittle and humiliate the Cretan People. The intention was, presumably, to diminish the Cretans in their own eyes.
Im sorry but your connection with the akis and ski ending in names is way off and a bit far fetched.
With music the Cretans are most similar with the Pontic Greeks as they both use the Lyra.

[Spartan]

^^^And they love their Violis/fiddles.

[Philosopher]

Svoliani,

where do you get "philosopher/jus" from?

And, second, I already wrote "akis" was a derision used by ottomans against cretains; look up what the word "derision" means.
Third, I already wrote "akis" means little one. But it also means "son of." Little one can mean literally "little" or little in the sense children.
Fourth, I already said the link between "Ski" and "kis" is a reach; that's not the issue. It was merely meant to garner a discussion of ideas. As I explained, the two suffixes mean different things and have different histories; "ski" has been around for a long time in Slavic languages; the akis ending for a surname, since the ottoman days.

Do a better job of reading my posts next time.

[Traveller]

Yes, the Cretans have a mysterious fascination with Macedonia. They were the fiercest warriors in the Macedonian struggle (1903-08). Here in Thessaloniki there are many roads , squares and statues honouring them.

[Svoliani]

Sorry Philosopher. Jus is another guy who is fascinated with genetic studies , you guys should share your ideas!!!

Yes you did mention that akis means 'little one' but you also added that it means 'son of ' . It does not mean son of !!!!
Dimitropoulos means son of Dimitri
Dimitraki (when referring to a child) means little Johnny
Dimitrakis means Little Johnny ... a Derivative or Deriviation , whatever that word you used against Dimitri , for our friends from Greece and RoM who probably wont know this word it means an insult or humiliation.

[Philosopher]

Svo,

Well, well, well, I guess me and "jus" are kissing cousins then.

As for "akis," here it is from the web:

"The –akis suffix is actually a diminutive, so aside from meaning 'Son of Petros', Petrakis can also be something cutesy to the effect of 'Little Stone' or 'Stoneykins'.

and from a Greek Translation site: http://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php?topic=252.0

"It is derived from the Greek word for "lion" λιοντάρι. The suffix "-akis" is diminutive and is typical of Cretan names meaning "the son of".

So who is erroneous now, my ignorant friend?

Like I wrote before, it means both little as derision and little as "son of." Learn the language.

[Spartan]

Yes, the Cretans have a mysterious fascination with Macedonia. They were the fiercest warriors in the Macedonian struggle (1903-08). Here in Thessaloniki there are many roads , squares and statues honouring them.

I have also read that the Cretans are very brave warriors(throughout their history). It took th Ottomans and Nazis a lot of effort to overcome them. They are fiercely territorial, and will defend their island to the death if need be.

A few years ago, the Greek police was investigating a Marijuana operation in Crete(they grow alot of weed there, with the intent of distributing it to Europe). When they had gathered enough evidence, they sent some cops there to make arrests. Upon arrival to the Cretian village, the cops were captured, taken hostage, one of them was shot in the leg, and the town children began parading in the streets wearing the policemens uniforms, guns and badges!
A negotiator had to be sent in, to get the cops out, and no charges were were laid, as it was part of the terms to get the cops back!
Fierce bastards I tell you!

[Pelister]

There may well be a connection between Macedonians and Cretans.

Looking at a contemporary, such as Homer, can reveal quite a bit about Crete, and the Cretans. Homer refers to the native of crete as "eteo-cretans".

Homer is clear about another thing. Crete in the 3rd century was a poly-glot, and the native language was still in use, at that time. Some old cretain words survive. Could the etymology of those words be found in "Slavic"? This might be worth looking into.

The natives of Crete were not Greeks, and furthermore, suggested that the ancient Greeks, were rather recent arrivals to the Island. Similar comments are made about Lesbos.

[Traveller]

There may well be a connection between Macedonians and Cretans.

Looking at a contemporary, such as Homer, can reveal quite a bit about Crete, and the Cretans. Homer refers to the native of crete as "eteo-cretans".

Homer is clear about another thing. Crete in the 3rd century was a poly-glot, and the native language was still in use, at that time. Some old cretain words survive. Could the etymology of those words be found in "Slavic"? This might be worth looking into.

The natives of Crete were not Greeks, and furthermore, suggested that the ancient Greeks, were rather recent arrivals to the Island. Similar comments are made about Lesbos.

Cretans and Mykenae are considered the first Greek tribes according to sociology rules (existence of a palace, workshops etc).