Greek and Bulgarian Music and culture

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't trust wikipedia, light reference only. Is that where you get your information from? To be expected I suppose.

[Voltron]

I don't want to get into population numbers where it concerns actual ethnicities, as Greece is no angel in this regard either. I was talking about cultural characteristics, like, for example when some clowns in Greece claim dances like the 'pusteno' (pushteno) and foods like 'pogatsa' (pogacha) are 'Greek' when in fact they are Macedonian.

What do they claim which is or may be originally Greek?

That would mean I agree with Onur that the clips he posted are in fact Turkish. I dont agree with that assessment.

There are lot of Grey areas in the balkans regarding cultrual characteristics. It would be like trying to figure out which came first the chicken or the egg. I think its quite trivial and shouldnt be emphasised too much. Our ppl have lived together through at least 3 empires since today. Roman - Byzantine - Ottoman. That is well over a millenia, I am sure influences have transcended each other in various ways to form today's ethnic balkan traditions such as cuisine and dances.

[Onur]

Yes, that is the general approach. Same thing with Bosnians, they identify themselves something different when in fact they are Muslim Serbs. Go figure....

Easy question to answer.

Some Balkan muslims really do call themselves as Turks because for a century, all Balkan states relates their national identity by being a christian and they don't accept their muslim kinsmen as their brothers. They exclude them from their society and calls them as Turks, aliens, gypsies etc. So, as a justification against this behavior, some Balkan muslims considers themselves as Turks since most of them already has Turkish relatives. This is not something unexpected either cuz for example, if everyone around you calls as African for a century even tough you are a Greek, then you probably start to think yourself as an African in the end


Btw, Bosniak identity formed in early 15th century, so it`s quite old and since Serbs tried to exterminate them, i don't think they can ever consider to call themselves as Serbian muslims. But do in fact Bosniaks are genetically no different than Serbs. They are actually same people but nevertheless, Serbs hate them because of their ignorant medieval-like religious doctrine.

[George S.]

Onur Drink half a bottle of rakija & i'm sure you will be dancing on the table & under it!!!
The greeks have been coppying all sorts of things not limited to just music.Not only to that but adopting it as their own i call that thievery of the highest order.They call it hellenising but they are nothing but thieves.

[Risto the Great]

They are ethnically Greek but still they call themselves Turks.

Only in your imagination, Imagination.
They were not Greeks ever. They were in fact another ethnicity that was waiting for a nation during the nation building exercises of 200 years ago.
They became Greeks if and when they came to Greece in the 1920's.
Don't kid yourself and stop lying.

[Soldier of Macedon]

There are lot of Grey areas in the balkans regarding cultrual characteristics.

I can tell you for a fact that there is no 'grey area' about the pushteno and pogacha when it comes to the question of if they are Macedonian or Greek. So, are you able to provide me with a specific example of Turks claiming Greek cultural characteristics, or not?

Our ppl have lived together through at least 3 empires since today. Roman - Byzantine - Ottoman.

It was 4 empires, no need to leave out Macedonian, you won't get stung by some sniper in Athens.

[TRAVOLTA]

The music seems to be definitely Macedonian...
YouTube - Î*ατινάδα-ΕΛΛΗÎ�ΙΚΗ ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗ Î*ΑΡΑΔΟΣΗ-ΛΕΥΚΑΔΙΑ

YouTube - Ράικος-ΕΛΛΗÎ�ΙΚΗ ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗ Î*ΑΡΑΔΟΣΗ-Λευκάδια

YouTube - ΣυÏ�τός-ΕΛΛΗÎ�ΙΚΗ ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗ Î*ΑΡΑΔΟΣΗ-ΛΕΥΚΑΔΙΑ

YouTube - Ράικος-ΕΛΛΗÎ�ΙΚΗ ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗ Î*ΑΡΑΔΟΣΗ-Λευκάδια

[Mastika]

YouTube - Ράικος-ΕΛΛΗÎ�ΙΚΗ ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗ Î*ΑΡΑΔΟΣΗ-Λευκάδια

Sounds very similar to the Marica oro perhaps?

YouTube - ΣυÏ�τός-ΕΛΛΗÎ�ΙΚΗ ΜΟΥΣΙΚΗ Î*ΑΡΑΔΟΣΗ-ΛΕΥΚΑΔΙΑ

Sounds like domakine, dobri gosti ti dojdoa.

[George S.]

Definitely macedonian music & dancing & clothes.No doubt about it.

[rosetta]

These people are so-called Greek Macedonians from Kavala, formerly christian Turks but today`s Hellenes. I think they are doing some cultural exhibition in a theater called Alexander the Great in Kavala. They wear their late 19th century costumes, sing and dance but the thing is, these Greek Macedonians in Alexander the Great theater sings in Turkish!!!;

Well, about everything is wrong. This is a folk music-dance group called Horostasi, from Glyphada, Athens. They're performing in Veakeio Theater, Peiraias.
Alexander is the name of the show, because it contains a number of traditional songs and dances from Macedonia. The link includes about 50 videos from various dances, per Prefect of Macedonia (including some refugees ones). They seem to be doing a serious research work but I don't really know how accurate they are.

http://xorostasi.org/?page_id=36

[rosetta]

In case you're interested, each red line (in Greek) is a link. Starting from Top to bottom, the dances are from:

http://xorostasi.org/?page_id=36

Kythnos (2) (that's irrelevant, from another show)

Grevena (2 videos)
Hemathia (6)
Kavala (10)
Kozani (6)
Serres (6)
Kilkis (7)
Pieria (4)
Florina (5)
Drama (3)
Pella (3)
Kastoria (1)

I guess Thessaloniki and Chalcidice were forgotten.
This is a video from Florina (villages Alona, Xino Nero)

YouTube - ‪ΑνθοÏ�λα-Î�. ΦλώÏ�ινας (ΧοÏ�οστάσι, "ΑλÎ*ξανδÏ�ος")‬‏

[Onur]

Pardon my ignorance of Greek language, Rosetta. Thats why i confused with it.

The thing is; the name of their show might be Alexander the Great but as you see from the videos, these are Turkish christians, performing Turkish folk dances and they sing in Turkish. I have no idea how they could find a connection between Alexander and them. These people are living there since 1923, but i can guess that you guys present them like they are descendants of ancient Macedonians!!!

Then i think about whether you guys have a genuine Greek dance, but afaik, you don't. Sirtaki and Zorba dance is some kind of Turkish Zeybek. So-called Pontic dances also a part of Georgian, Laz and Turkish folklore. The rest of so-called Greek dances are actually Albanian, mostly the dances of Cham Albanians. Also, the video you posted above looks like Macedonian.

The dances are Turkish, Albanian, Macedonian. Zurna, oud, davul, kanoun, the instruments are Turkish. The clothing is again Turkish and Macedonian. I have no problem with Greeks performing these dances but i cant stand the fact that you adopt all these folklore and relate as Greek only and then using the name of Alexander because of your antiquity obsession. It`s obvious that these dances, clothing doesn't have any connection with antiquity times. I mean, neither Sophocles nor Alexander was dancing karsilamas, chamiko, zeybekiko, horon, they weren't singing in Turkish either!!!

[rosetta]

I’m sorry. I was referring to the first video of your post, which is from this show called Alexander. Both your videos reproduce Cappadocian Dances.

The first dance comes supposedly from refugees of Nea Karvali, Kavala who came from Karvali/ Gelveri/ Guzelyurt, the second is from a dance group of the Brotherhood of Prokopians of Nea Artaki, Euboea, i.e. refugees from Prokopio/ Burgut Kalesi/ Urgup.
So, in the first video the dancers are Athenians (could originate from anywhere) performing various dances of Macedonia, while in the second video, many of the dancers may actually be descendants of Cappadocians.

What can I say? I’m not folklorist. While I can partly recognize the sounds, the moves or the costumes of each area, I can’t go much deeper. It’s tricky to take credit of traditional music, songs, instruments and dances. If Muslims and Christians of Cappadocia danced in a similar or exactly the same manner how can one find who formed the dances or contributed most?

As far as I know, the Cappadocians spoke an (about 50-50) Greek-Turkish hybrid, so if you fully understand the language, then it’s not Cappadocian and the groups made a poor or imperfect choice.

The Christians of Ottoman Empire were not Turks and were not called Turks (until they converted). The term Christian Turk is either modern or was invented by you right now. (I hope no Cappadocians are reading the forum).

The dances you mention are very popular in Greece (karsilama, chamiko, zeybekiko) yet are among 100 of dances and their variations. I see that the term horon (=dance in Greek) covers what we call Pontian dances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horon

Sirtaki is not close to zeybekiko, at least the idea modern Greeks have of zeybekiko, which is a “heavy” dance.

We don’t have videos or recordings from antiquity. The music notes have survived and many have tried to decipher them, but you can never be sure. There are also descriptions of their war dances, and they’re close to the Pontian ones. So, in ancient theatre plays, stage directors and choreographers usually use Pontian dances as a basis and inspiration to reproduce dances of antiquity.

[Onur]

If Muslims and Christians of Cappadocia danced in a similar or exactly the same manner how can one find who formed the dances or contributed most?

Turkish central Anatolian dances are exact same, not even similar. We have same tunes, songs as the ones in the videos. The clothing is quite similar too. I am not a folklorist either but by the looking at the language and the instruments, i believe it should be the Turks who contributed most. You wont claim davul, zurna, tulum as Greek or are you?

As far as I know, the Cappadocians spoke an (about 50-50) Greek-Turkish hybrid, so if you fully understand the language, then it’s not Cappadocian and the groups made a poor or imperfect choice.

Yes i fully understand what they say. There was two group of people among them; Romaika speakers and Turkish speakers. Romaika was the one with 50-50 Greek-Turkish. Most Romaika speakers was living in rural parts of Aegean, Thrace and Blacksea. Byzantine Greek speakers was only living in city centrals, Izmir and Istanbul. As it`s attested by the western European christian missioners as early as 15th century, central Anatolian christians was speaking Turkish only. Also Istanbul patriarchy was only publishing Turkish bibles to them, not Greek nor Romaika.

The term Christian Turk is either modern or was invented by you right now. (I hope no Cappadocians are reading the forum).

Nope, it`s actually invented from a Greek term of tourkopouloi, by the Byzantines because it was them who baptized pre-Ottoman, Seljuk era Turks in Anatolia. So, the term, christian Turks exists since 11th century.

Google for "tourkopouloi" and/or search this term in Google books, you will see it then. Also, christian Turks still exists today. The gagauz people in Moldova but i know that you hellenized the gagauz people in Greece by using same mentality as you wrote here; "Christians cant be Turk, they can only be Greek".

We don’t have videos or recordings from antiquity. The music notes have survived and many have tried to decipher them, but you can never be sure. There are also descriptions of their war dances, and they’re close to the Pontian ones. So, in ancient theatre plays, stage directors and choreographers usually use Pontian dances as a basis and inspiration to reproduce dances of antiquity.

Yes we cant be sure but i don't think so. At least i am sure that there was no davul, tulum, kemenche in antiquity. They weren't singing in Turkish either unlike your folklore team does. Even if all those would exist in antiquity, then i am sure that the cappadocian dances have no relation with Macedonia or Alexander.

I saw these names of Pontian dances from your link;
Tik, Ters, Tas, Almatsouk, Giurvalandun, Karsilamas, Tsurtuguzus, Dolme, Utsai, Sarikuz.

These are Turkish words and all of them has a meaning in my language like "standup, reverse, greeting, blonde girl, circling, turning". All of these were under the tag "Greek Horon types" in wikipedia and probably there are more Turkish words but i missed some because of grecquized orthography. So, Greek choreographers uses these Turkish named horon dances as a basis to reanimate ancient hellenic dances???!!! Hmm, okay, this is not something new for me, i am used to that anymore!!! Maybe i would be shocked if one day you would show Alexander the Great while eating kebab with yogurt and dancing Zeybek!!! I bet Greeks does that too, to pretend it as it`s supposedly have an ancient Greek roots.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

In case you're interested, each red line (in Greek) is a link. Starting from Top to bottom, the dances are from:

http://xorostasi.org/?page_id=36

Kythnos (2) (that's irrelevant, from another show)

Grevena (2 videos)
Hemathia (6)
Kavala (10)
Kozani (6)
Serres (6)
Kilkis (7)
Pieria (4)
Florina (5)
Drama (3)
Pella (3)
Kastoria (1)

I guess Thessaloniki and Chalcidice were forgotten.
This is a video from Florina (villages Alona, Xino Nero)

what, name do you use on malakasontheweb/fish/and/tsips.fu? Alona? Where is that located close to Armensko, Lerin? NO PAN WHACKO VIDS SOULA THIS IS A MACEDONIAN WEBSITE NOT GLEEK