Best Army-Leader

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  • Phoenix
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2008
    • 4671

    #31
    Sun Tzu...

    His legacy, 'The Art of War' stands as the definitive modern military handbook, the fact that it has inspired some of the greatest military leaders in history should put Sun Tzu (whether a real or imaginery historical figure) at the front of the queue.

    Military strategy is the evolution of trial and error on the battlefield, to pick the "best" is therefor difficult without acknowledging the success of predecessors.

    In regard to the greece V turkey scenario, although it stands as a mouth-watering UFC challenge, the turks need to be respected for their fearsome fighting history...I doubt that the greeks possess the same 'pedigree'...we've seen the turks do the 'business' on their own, without help, I don't know if the same claims can be made for the greeks...?

    What does "best army" actually mean, for me its the moulding of diverse individuals into an elite fighting force with common purpose to succeed, the French Foreign Legion is an interesting example

    Comment

    • osiris
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1969

      #32
      come on re phoenix all the best kick boxers are greek re, ask my cousin kosta from oakliegh he will confirm it re.

      Comment

      • Spartan
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1037

        #33
        Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
        ...we've seen the turks do the 'business' on their own, without help, I don't know if the same claims can be made for the greeks...?
        You should look up what the bigshots said about the Greek army in WW2. Guys like Stalin, Churchhill, Hitler, Roosevelt and others that give huge praise to the Greek contribution.

        Not saying they could defeat Turkey, but i guarantee you it wouldnt be 'a wall in the park' as they say.

        Comment

        • Phoenix
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2008
          • 4671

          #34
          Originally posted by Spartan View Post
          You should look up what the bigshots said about the Greek army in WW2. Guys like Stalin, Churchhill, Hitler, Roosevelt and others that give huge praise to the Greek contribution.

          Not saying they could defeat Turkey, but i guarantee you it wouldnt be 'a wall in the park' as they say.
          Yeah, not sure about the "wall in the park" bit but I do recall some fairly significant allied assistance offered to greece in the past, the sort of assistance that you will need in the future...at the end of the day the importance of air superiority and controlling sea-lanes pales into insignificance once ground troops have to be called on to hold territory, that's where the turks have your measure...

          Comment

          • Spartan
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1037

            #35
            Sorry, I meant 'walk in the park'. Typo
            As for the assistance greece has recieved in the past, I dont deny, but early ww2 was not one of these instances.

            I dont doubt that the Turkish military is perhaps stronger, definitely bigger, but the greek one is just strong enough to make them think twice. The turks , would also suffer heavy losses if they engaged Greece in a war.

            Anyways, its not gonna come to that.
            Officially they are our 'allies' <rolleyes>
            Last edited by Spartan; 12-27-2009, 12:12 PM.

            Comment

            • Phoenix
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2008
              • 4671

              #36
              Originally posted by Spartan View Post
              Sorry, I meant 'walk in the park'. Typo
              As for the assistance greece has recieved in the past, I dont deny, but ww2 was not one of these instances.

              I dont doubt that the Turkish military is perhaps stronger, definitely bigger, but the greek one is just strong enough to make them think twice. The turks , would also suffer heavy losses if they engaged Greece in a war.

              Anyways, its not gonna come to that.
              Officially they are our 'allies' <rolleyes>
              WWII was definately one of those instances...

              Comment

              • Spartan
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1037

                #37
                The Greeks didnt get 'real' help until after they surrendered to the Germans. Against the Italians, they went at it alone. They also delayed Germany for weeks, forcing them to advance on Russia much later in the year than they had planned, which was a major turning point of the war.

                Anyways, why would it bother you if the Greeks get praised for something? What difference does it make?
                Last edited by Spartan; 12-27-2009, 10:52 AM.

                Comment

                • Phoenix
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 4671

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Spartan View Post
                  The Greeks didnt get 'real' help until after they surrendered to the Germans. Against the Italians, they went at it alone. They also delayed Germany for weeks, forcing them to advance on Russia much later in the year than they had planned, which was a major turning point of the war.

                  Anyways, why would it bother you if the Greeks get praised for something? What difference does it make?
                  British, Australian, New Zealand and Palestinian help... that was very real my friend, something in the order of 60,000 men...

                  During the Civil War it was the British and the USA that came to your help...

                  and it does bother me, it gives me the shits actually because greeks are the greatest self promoters on the planet and the ill informed take the bait everytime...enough of the free rides I reckon

                  Comment

                  • Spartan
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 1037

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                    British, Australian, New Zealand and Palestinian help... that was very real my friend, something in the order of 60,000 men...
                    Can you give me some more details?
                    During the Civil War it was the British and the USA that came to your help...
                    I dont understand? It was a civil war of political ideology. Did you think the American/Brits would support the commy side? Thats the Russians place to do so.
                    and it does bother me, it gives me the shits actually because greeks are the greatest self promoters on the planet and the ill informed take the bait everytime...enough of the free rides I reckon
                    Did you look up the quotes I mentioned? Hitler, Churchill Stalin and Roosovelt are not greek. Self-promotion?
                    Your hate for greeks must be pretty heavy if you look to downplay any achievemnt, or fine moment they have had.
                    I just cant understand why it would anger you for Greeks to recieve praise.

                    On a different note, I fully agree with this...

                    Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                    Sun Tzu...

                    His legacy, 'The Art of War' stands as the definitive modern military handbook, the fact that it has inspired some of the greatest military leaders in history should put Sun Tzu (whether a real or imaginery historical figure) at the front of the queue.
                    Last edited by Spartan; 12-27-2009, 11:16 AM.

                    Comment

                    • Phoenix
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 4671

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Spartan View Post
                      Can you give me some more details?

                      I dont understand? It was a civil war of political ideology. Did you think the American/Brits would support the commy side? Thats the Russians place to do so.

                      Did you look up the quotes I mentioned? Hitler, Churchill Stalin and Roosovelt are not greek. Self-promotion?
                      Your hate for greeks must be pretty heavy if you look to downplay any achievemnt, or fine moment they have had.
                      I just cant understand why it would anger you for Greeks to recieve praise.
                      You're the one that's telling me how great the greeks are, I merely highlighted the simple fact that they're not as good as you think they are...

                      In WWII you drove out an inept and ill-equipped Italian force but when the Nazi's came your forces had to be heavily reinforced with 'British Empire' armies...the greeks depended heavily on manpower and supplies from Britain and her allies

                      The greeks couldn't contain a civil war without British and American help and you expect me to believe that you held off the Nazi's without any assisstance...and its been that assisstance that you've denied, which is clearly bullshit and you want me to praise you...f.off

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Spartan View Post
                        You should look up what the bigshots said about the Greek army in WW2. Guys like Stalin, Churchhill, Hitler, Roosevelt and others that give huge praise to the Greek contribution.
                        Here is something in relation to the Greek army during WWII.
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Gruevski

                        Gruevski has family roots in Greek Macedonia ("Aegean Macedonia"). His paternal grandparents stem from Achlada (Greek: Αχλάδα; Macedonian: Крушоради, Krušoradi),[5] a village in the Meliti municipality of the Florina Prefecture, Greece, where his family had the Hellenized surname Grouios (Γρούϊος).[5] His grandmother emigrated to the Socialist Republic of Macedonia during the Greek Civil War after having lost her husband in the Greco-Italian War.[6]
                        How many more regular Macedonians that have been overlooked as Macedonians because they wore the Greek uniform due to circumstance?
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • El Bre
                          Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 713

                          #42
                          I have relatives who were conscripted by and fought for the Greek army in the Greco-Italian war, known to them as Albanskio boj.

                          The position of the Macedonian minority worsened in the period 1936-41 under the Metaxas regime which viewed the minority as a danger to Greece’s security and large numbers (Yugoslav sources allege over 5,000) Macedonians were interned from the border regions with Yugoslavia, and night schools were opened to teach adult Macedonians the Greek language. The repression was further stepped up after the beginning of the Greco-Italian war in October 1940, despite the numbers of Macedonians fighting loyally in Greece’s armies, with, according to Yugoslav sources, some 1,600 Macedonians interned on the islands of Thasos and Kefallinia (Cephalonia).
                          Last edited by El Bre; 12-27-2009, 11:57 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Spartan
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1037

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                            You're the one that's telling me how great the greeks are, I merely highlighted the simple fact that they're not as good as you think they are...
                            Im not saying how great they are, just that ww2 was one of modern greeces best moments.
                            In WWII you drove out an inept and ill-equipped Italian force
                            A force that was probably double that of ours, and had a few luxuries we did not, namely german equipment.
                            The greeks couldn't contain a civil war without British and American help
                            Same situation as many other of the civil wars of the cold war period.
                            and you expect me to believe that you held off the Nazi's without any assisstance...
                            Nowhere did I state such a thing. And how does assistance lessen their effort anyway? Do you know what the germans themselves stated?

                            “For the sake of historical truth I must verify that only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death.."-Adolph Hitler -(From speech he delivered to Reichstag on 4 May 1941)

                            On 10 April 1941, after the Greek capitulation to Germany, the northern forts of Greece surrendered. The Germans express their admirations to Greek soldiers, declared that they were honored and proud to have as their adversary such an Army and request that the Greek commandant inspect the German army in a demonstration of honor and recognition! The German flag was raised only after the complete withdrawal of the Greek Army

                            A German officer of the air force declared to the commander of the Eastern Macedonia division group, Lieutenant General Dedes, that the Greek Arm was the first army on which the Stuka fighter planes did not cause panic. "Your soldiers" he said, "instead of fleeing frantically, as they did in France and Poland, were shooting at us from their positions."
                            and its been that assisstance that you've denied, which is clearly bullshit and you want me to praise you...f.off
                            Ive denied nothing, and i care little if you 'praise us'. Many other important people have already done so . And you can go f... off my friend, quit being such a hater.
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            How many more regular Macedonians that have been overlooked as Macedonians because they wore the Greek uniform due to circumstance?
                            Im sure there was many more SoM, and i would say they are fully deserving of the same praise as all the other soldiers of the greek army of the time recieved.
                            Last edited by Spartan; 12-27-2009, 05:06 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15659

                              #44
                              Both my grandfathers fought for the Greek army in WW2.
                              One of them was such a good Macedonian that the local village shpion reported him such that he was ordered to go back to fight in the front lines for a second time. It could be understood that the front lines of Greece in war were often filled with the enemies of Greece. (ie get rid of them whilst they prove their commitment to the Greek State, a win-win strategy)

                              El Bre makes a point in that the western named "Greco-Italian" war was called the "Albanski Boi" by our people. The Albanians were terrible in our villages. It was them who reported the Macedonians to the local Greek police. Imagine the newcomers to your village becoming good little Greeks and then stealing what you have by demonstrating their superior Greekness. I am sorry, these people were not Arvanites. They were Albanians or Arnauti and they are your pure Greeks in the region nowadays (100 years later). Anyway, who is to say that MANY Macedonians fought in the Albanski Boi to keep even more of those Albanians out of their region? A pretty good motivator if you ask me.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Phoenix
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2008
                                • 4671

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Spartan View Post
                                A force that was probably double that of ours, and had a few luxuries we did not, namely german equipment.
                                There you go again spartan, big noting yourself like a typical greek boofhead...you fail to acknowledge that the greek side was getting a few "luxuries" themselves in the way of captured German equipment from North Africa...even after your navy was almost decimated the British once again came to aid, throwing significant naval assets in your direction...

                                The outbreak of World War II paints an interesting picture of modern greece at that time...why did greece have such a large military presence in Aegean Macedonia and once the Axis powers divided greece, why did the Bulgars undertake an immediate policy of 'bulgarization' in their zone of control...

                                And another thing spartan...I don't really have much interest in long lost tribes of mythology and how they lived and I certainly don't like too many things about 'greece' shoved down my throat in BIG BOLD RED TEXT, be a good boy, put away your plastic swords, spears and shields, along with the silly red statement on the end of your posts...it takes up too much space, a bit like greeks in general.

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