18th-19th century 'greek' intellectuals saw Anc. Maks as conquerors

[Bill77]

The motive of putting Alexanders lineage in question was simply to prevent a strong athlete from securing a lead in the event.
If im not mistaken he tied for first.

Thats crazy. He was indisputably Macedonian. Therfor, They could have looked for other reasons to block him entering, than questioning a Macedonians lineage if Macedonians were truely Greeks.

Besides, Isn't this response a bit hypercritical after your comments to stojacanec.

Stojacanec, your going on pure speculation.

And,

Dont rush to conclusions Bill.

Read what I posted and the subsequent dialogue I had before with Stojanec.
I know the difference bro.

I did read the subsequent dialogue. Which is what lead me to believe you did not know the difference. You did not correct stojanec on which Alexander you were referring to and went along with the ATG Greekness dialogue as if it was he, you were talking about.

Its ok bro, we all make mistakes.

If im not mistaken he tied for first.

He probably won. But to give the victory to a Macedonian over a Greek in their own games would have been Insulting and demoralising.
Could you imagine, a Barbarian "... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia".
(which was said about Philip and would have had the same thoughts about the Macedonians before him).

Its not speculation but clear Macedonians were not Greeks. so to end this post, i will finish it with your quote.

Christ what else does it take ppl ?

[Soldier of Macedon]

His lineage was only contested subsequently after complaints from participants not from officials.
The motive of putting Alexanders lineage in question was simply to prevent a strong athlete from securing a lead in the event.
If im not mistaken he tied for first.

His lineage was contested more than once. You just don't have the capacity to accept logic over myth. That fluff about preventing a strong athlete is a new one, it seems like every few months there is a new theory coined as to why the Hellenes did not accept Alexander as a Hellene. As for him being tied for first place, aside from the citation from Herodotus, there appears to be no evidence of this, nor was it recorded as such in the Olympics.

[makedonche]

You didn't claimed this earlier! To the contrary, you stated:



How can a scholar influence other Greek scholars(as you say) to believe that the Macedonians were not Greeks if he himself is uncertain about the matter?

It seems that the one who's uncertain is you. Maybe you need to clear your thoughts. To help you i will give you a hint.
The reason why Korais and the rest of the Greek intellectuals at the time didn't considered the Ancient Macedonians as Greeks was not because of their origin, religious or linguistic differences, but because they saw them as not being part of the Greek nation, they were outside of the Greek world. If you've read carefully the first pages on this thread you would have realized this.



Only after the German Droysen offered his theories to your historians did they accepted to include the Macedonians into the Greek nation.




And what happened? The Greek state and scholars, the ones who quite recently omitted the Ancient Macedonians from the Greek nation now went on a mission to 'prove' how Hellenic they in fact were.






Well lets for the 'sake of the argument' assume that you didn't took this sentence out of context. In this sentence Korais:

1. Speaks about the successors of Alexander, not about the Ancient Macedonians nor about Alexander nor about his predecessors! Only about his successors who certainly can't be equalized with the Ancient Macedonians themselves.
2. Tells us that the Hellenes were subjugated to the Macedonians.
Do you know what subjugated means?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjugate

3. States that the situation after the enslavement/subjegation of the Hellenes by the Macedonians was 'not that bad'. Which means the situation was bad(the Hellenes were enslaved after all) but not extremely bad.

4. States a possibility, that maybe this enslavement was not that bad because the successors were 'Hellenes themselves'. That's why he uses the word 'perhaps'

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perhaps

So this sentence alone tells us what i have already stated, that Korais considered the Macedonians as conquerors of Greece, a people not taking part in the Greek nation. You simply lack the mental capacity to figure it out.

PS: You didn't answered my question! What have these 18th century scholars(predecessors of Korais) which you threw around wrote about the Ancient Macedonians apart from the one liners you are quoting and which is nothing more then propaganda for the ignorant. Weren't the Ancient Macedonians such an important part of your nation? Weren't they the ones who spread Hellenic culture all around the world? Isn't it shameful that one liners is everything that the Greek intelligentsia(including the ones that allegedly considered Macedonians as Greeks) wrote about them before Droysen come up in the 1850es and told them '' hey guys, these Macedonians are very important for your new identity, you need to include them in your history'' ?

Orfej
Well analysed and well constructed response, putting an end to the pretenders false aspirations. Lets see what response we get from the make believe Hellenes!

[makedonche]

Bill77
Well responded Bill, what astounds me is the lack of ability to think critically or laterally, or to accept facts that are presented - yet we are expected to accept everything the Greeks say without questioning it? WTF?
Voltrons quote sums it up well,however he fails to see that what he expects he's not prepared to give!

Originally Posted by Voltron
Christ what else does it take ppl ?

So Voltron, for christs sake! what else does it take?

[George S.]

Alexander was a macedonian & he wasn't a greek voltron get it right.Unlike the greeks who copy other people & colonise other countries & practised slavery.THe macedonians gave their subjects freedom from slavery & let them practice their religion.Alexander beleived in freedom not greek slavery.

[Voltron]

His lineage was contested more than once. You just don't have the capacity to accept logic over myth. That fluff about preventing a strong athlete is a new one, it seems like every few months there is a new theory coined as to why the Hellenes did not accept Alexander as a Hellene. As for him being tied for first place, aside from the citation from Herodotus, there appears to be no evidence of this, nor was it recorded as such in the Olympics.

Every few months ? What is amazing to me is how Alexanders response is completely disregarded and the focus is on the objection of other athletes. As if today we dont have similar Olympic stories of ppl trying to obstruct even their own teammates for personal gain. Nancy Kerrigan anyone ? Macedonians not being Greek is the myth SOM, not logic.

http://figureskating.about.com/od/profilesoffamousskaters/p/kerrigan.htm

[mango]

His lineage was only contested subsequently after complaints from participants not from officials.
The motive of putting Alexanders lineage in question was simply to prevent a strong athlete from securing a lead in the event.
If im not mistaken he tied for first.

You can spin history all you want but the bottom line remains the same. The participants complained (they knew he was not Greek) so the officials decided to examine the accusations (they also knew he was not Greek up to that point). According to Borza the whole incident was just a piece of propaganda transmitted by Herodotus. Borza claims the list of the competitors of that particular Olympic games does not contain Alex's name.

[Epirot]

Every few months ? What is amazing to me is how Alexanders response is completely disregarded and the focus is on the objection of other athletes. As if today we dont have similar Olympic stories of ppl trying to obstruct even their own teammates for personal gain. Nancy Kerrigan anyone ? Macedonians not being Greek is the myth SOM, not logic.

http://figureskating.about.com/od/pr...p/kerrigan.htm

Without your jokes, this thread would not be as nearly interesting. Let continue further your infamous joke:

Illyrians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Thracians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Epirotes not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Dacians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Celts not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Etruscans not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Scythians not being Greek is the myth, not logic.

Why your logic suddenly passes into mythic grounds? The crash between Macedonians and Greeks was not limited only in that Olympic competition: the ancient literature is loaded with full ethnic riots of Greeks against Macedonians. John Shea stated that even to medium Greeks (the case of athletes), Macedonians were seen as foreigners.

But this does not belong here, does it? Voltron you're jumping from one thread to another, so most of your replies have nothing to do with the thread.

[Voltron]

You can spin history all you want but the bottom line remains the same. The participants complained (they knew he was not Greek) so the officials decided to examine the accusations (they also knew he was not Greek up to that point). According to Borza the whole incident was just a piece of propaganda transmitted by Herodotus. Borza claims the list of the competitors of that particular Olympic games does not contain Alex's name.

Mango, Greek history is one of the most well documented histories we have on this planet. We dont need to "spin" it.
There is simply nothing out there to prove Anc. Macedonians werent Greek. Absolutly nothing concrete. It always comes down to speculation.

[Voltron]

Without your jokes, this thread would not be as nearly interesting. Let continue further your infamous joke:

Illyrians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Thracians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Epirotes not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Dacians not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Celts not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Etruscans not being Greek is the myth, not logic
Scythians not being Greek is the myth, not logic.

Why your logic suddenly passes into mythic grounds? The crash between Macedonians and Greeks was not limited only in that Olympic competition: the ancient literature is loaded with full ethnic riots of Greeks against Macedonians. John Shea stated that even to medium Greeks (the case of athletes), Macedonians were seen as foreigners.

But this does not belong here, does it? Voltron you're jumping from one thread to another, so most of your replies have nothing to do with the thread.

Your're right Epirot, doesnt belong in this thread. It wasnt my intention to derail it either. I made a comment and it took off from there. Lets take it elsewhere.

[Bill77]

Mango, Greek history is one of the most well documented histories we have on this planet. We dont need to "spin" it.
There is simply nothing out there to prove Anc. Macedonians werent Greek. Absolutly nothing concrete. It always comes down to speculation.

Yes we do, Alexander had to prove why he should enter a Greek only Game. Being Macedonian was not proof.

[mango]

Mango, Greek history is one of the most well documented histories we have on this planet. We dont need to "spin" it.
There is simply nothing out there to prove Anc. Macedonians werent Greek. Absolutly nothing concrete. It always comes down to speculation.

You're right, it is well documented, that is precisely the reason why we know the Greeks did not consider the Macedonians to be Greek and neither the Macedonians considered themselves to be Greek. Macedonians despised the Greeks.

[Voltron]

Yeah, they despised the Greeks so much that everything they did from worshipping our Gods, speaking our language, participate in our traditions and spreading our culture throughout the known world and having the era defined as "Hellenisitic" Age.

Too bad Albanians dont follow the same approach in ROM.

[Agamoi Thytai]

[QUOTE=makedonche;107448]Agamoi
Here's a snippet from one of your own posts which you'll probably fail to see the irony in, have a read and tell me if you find anything ironic in this text:-

[Dionysios Pyrros also wrote a history of Alexander the Great in 1845,with the following description on the preface:

"Life,deeds and exploits of the Macedonian Alexander the Great:composed out of the writings of ancient Hellene authors and interpreted in Neohellenic,with the ancient and the modern names of the cities and of their current inhabitants,with the addition of a map of Alexander's campaign.Printed for first time now,to the benefit of the studious Hellenes"

/QUOTE]

Elaborate please,I can't see anything ironic.If you mean the difference between modern and ancient names,curent inhabitants e.t.c,well he could refer to some people like Arabs and Turks that now dwel in most lands that Alexander conquered while they were not around in Alexander's time.And if you find ironic the phrase "printed for firts time now",this was definitely not the first modern Greek book about Alexander.I know there was an edition from 1804,"Diegesis Alexandrou tou Makedonos" (Story of Alexander the Macedonian",which was actually Pseudo-Callistheenes' History of Alexander in some form of modern Greek),though such "histories of Alexander" were very popular all over the Greek world for many centuries earlier,as G.Abbott wrote:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8MIGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=di%C4%93g%C4%93sis+Alexandrou+tou+Makedonos&hl=el&ei=0V5FTua3Fc-r-gbMkIyDBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

For example,there was printed in Venice in 1603 a book called "O Aλέξανδρος ο Μακεδών" (Alexander the Macedonian) :

http://books.google.com/books?id=DXXjSAAACAAJ&dq=ho+alexandros+ho+makedon&hl=el&ei=s8qYTbfTAaDY4wbAmvDUAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA

The author of that book appeared to be a certain Dimitrios Zinos,who stated in the preface though that he actually had reedited a story that was first written in 1529 and later edited by some unknown person in Zakynthos,where he found the old manuscript.

"This booklet was printed in Venice
the one who printed it had great aspirations
to find the exploits and deeds of Alexander
and how he met death at the hands of Cassander..."

It is evident in this verses of Dimitrios Zinos in the preface that he reflects older popular beliefs of Byzantine time that attributed to Alexander the features of a Christian Saint,praising his prudence and his abstinence from flesh pleasures,speaking of his treatment of Darius' captured wife:

"Thus take and hold this story
to see the exploits and Alexander's culture
for he possessed bravery and prudence
so see whether he was a prudent and just man
because he had captured Darius' wife
but didn't commit adultery,like the sinners do
even though he was young and powerfull..."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/alexmegzinos2.gif

"Years after the new redemption of mankind
Fifteen hundred and twentynine
on the fifteenth of the month September
through the effort and skill of Zinos Dimitrios."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/alexmegzinos3.gif

[TrueMacedonian]

European travellers who visited in 19th century districts of southern Macedonia inhabited mainly by Greeks mention various traditions and myths about Alexander the Great:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Macfolklcover.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Macfolkl251.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Macfolkl279.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Macfolkl280.jpg

Actually G.Abbott has cited W.Leake's account from 1835:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/olympileake.jpg

The Past in Question, by Keith Brown

Perhaps the source of most such traditions was not folk memory,however it was not "western influence" either and nevertheless it shows how deep rooted is the figure of Alexander the Great in Greek collective memory even through literrary sources that were very popular for cneturies:Probably it was the "Chap-book of Alexander the Great" (the known "history of Alexnader" of Pseudo-Callisthenes) which,as G.Abbott wrote in 1903, "has long been and still is a favourite reading of the lower classes all over the Greek world":

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Macfolkl282.jpg

Hell,there are traditions about Alexander among the Greeks of Macedonia recorded even in 16th century,long before any "western influence" or philhellenism,romanticism e.t.c reached the Balkans!The French Pierre Bellon wrote in 1553 about a tradition in the village of Chalastra,near ancient Philippi in the district of Kavala,that the locals called this city "city of Bucephalus" and they believed that there was the manger where Alexander the Great's horse ate.
"Les habitans du pays en sont une fable enti eulx,estimants que c'est la mangeoire de la iument d' Alexandre le Grand.Mais par la iument fault entendre Bucephalus"

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Belloncover.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/Belon140.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/o.../Bellon141.gif

It's interesting to note that Kolokotroni the Albanian hero of the greek revolution never once objected to what cochrane said to him concerning your imaginary ancestors (Both Macedonians and Hellenes);




Nor does it bother many greeks today that the map found in Kolokotronis' memoirs leave out Macedonia;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2989

Now why would someone so important in your countrys recent history not promote the Alexander myths you are purporting to?

As for what William Martin Leake described:


Researches in Greece, by William Martin Leake

It seems odd that he equates speaking greek with shopkeepers or artisans i.e. Socio-Labor labels. Another oddity (besides his 19th century narrow minded world view) is how peasants could speak up to three languages in Southern Macedonia. This should make you and your 1 friend with 10 accounts here think twice about what Leake really meant.
As for Abbot;


The Past In Question, By Keith Brown

I wonder how much of these labels you truly understand for this period?

How about you amuse us with what your 2 giddy friends posted about Boiannes and his supposed speech with Alexander being called a Hellene Go ahead and post the material here.