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Originally posted by George S.
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The New Greeks are liars and thieves, that much is certain. They got lucky. They knew that Europe would give them nothing, if they continued to be simply Albanian mercenaries. These New Greek know damn well that the Macedonian language, is in fact the oldest language on the block, they know its local and native. The New Greeks and the Macedonian politicians lying to the people, and negotiating (not discussing) our identity behind closed doors are the two biggest obstacles standing in our way to realising our potential. -
It's been a while since we've seen your inconsistent dribble on this forum. And it would seem that nothing has changed.Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai
You were right the first time. Yet you still tried to manipulate the discussion for the purpose of catering to your own argument. Furthermore, your insignificant neo-Platonists and those that thought alike have been discussed on other threads. Find those, and resume the discussion there - you can start by citing the actual text of Laskaris' panegyric so we can see where he makes reference to an ethnic connection and the context in which it was written.To begin with,how many Macedonians in 13th century claimed a historical or ethnic connection to ancient Macedonians?
That was the view of the majority of 'Greek' scholars at the time, not just some.SoM and TrueMacedonian have posted so far some interesting quotes that show certain Greek scholars considered Macedonians as a non-Greek people.It's true,I don't deny it,there were indeed in 19th century some Greek scholars who held that view.
Demosthenes was right, and the overwhelming majority of Hellenes were predisposed to take his view. Your attempt to wrap Koraes' perceptions with your own interpretation is comical, and an insult to his own contemporaries - many of who did not share the view that people like yourself have developed over the last 200 years.It is obvious then that Koraes thought less of the Macedonians because of their monarchic constitution as opposed to Athenian democracy and because they were the ones who ended the athenian autonomy,so he was predisposed to take Demosthenes' side in the ancient debate about the ethnicity of Macedonians.
Really? Why don't you refer me to a statement by Koraes where he doesn't consider Capo D'Istria as a Greek?The same hatred he had for autarchic Philip, Koraes also had for the equally autarchic first ruler of the modern Greek state,Ioannis Kapodistrias, whom he even called "a tyrant".
You've mentioned three. Georgios Fatseas ,Ioannis Pringos and Stageiritis. Who are the rest from the 18th and 19th centuries?Before Korais time,almost all Greek scholars considered ancient Macedonians as Greeks.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.Comment
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Agamoi
Please explain to me how the Macedonians were a kingdom ruled by kings and the Hellenes were city states supposedly ruled by their invented method of democracy? How is it you can have supposedly the same people ruled by two different political systems at the same time?On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"Comment
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Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!Comment
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As i see, you completely agree that Adamantios Korais didn't viewed the Ancient Macedonians as Greeks. That's not surprising since all contemporary historians (Greek or foreign) agree on the matter. But if we take a look at Adamantios Korais writings we can find at least one sentence which looks ''suspicious'' regarding his thoughts on the Macedonians. For example here:Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
Korais states:
Now if we didn't explicitly knew Korais thoughts about the Ancient Macedonians not being Greeks, this sentence would have been misleading. Even more, some Greek troll may have tried to fool us in believing the opposite, that Korais in fact thought that the Ancient Macedonians were Greeks. But in this case, that would be impossible.This thread alone has abundance of authors which confirm what you and me already know, that Korais looked at the Macedonians as enslavers of Greece."Epirotans,remember the achievents of your ancestors....Thessalians and Macedonians,remember that your ancestors completely crushed Darius,who was incomparably more terrible king than the current unmanly and effeminate tyrant of Greece.Peloponnesians and the rest of the Hellenes,don't forget the trophies that your ancestors erected thank to their victories against the barbarians.And especially you,the Maniates,bethink that you are blood of the Spartans.All of you together,who are glorified by the bright name of the Hellenes...."
You may ask yourself what's my point, why do i write all this?! It's because i want to show you that one sentence is not enough to learn what a person believes are. As you see from Korais it can even be quite misleading. That's why your ''arguments'' regarding the pre-Korais intellectuals who allegedly considered the Macedonians as Greeks is far-fetched. To draw a conclusions based on one sentence from their book is ridiculous. To make a whole theory out of it is insane.
As you can see, on this thread you will find many authors(both Greek and foreign) who confirm how the Greek intellectuals looked at the Ancient Macedonians. They drew their conclusions based on all of the writings of these Greek intellectuals. That's how scholars work, the opposite from how you work which can be described as propaganda for the ignorant.
PS:These Greek intellectuals you quoted wrote hundreds of pages about the ''Greek history''. Are the sentences you previously quoted all that they wrote about the Ancient Macedonians, the ones that allegedly are such an important part of your history?
Last edited by Orfej; 08-07-2011, 10:24 AM.Comment
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precisely the macedonians were like oppressors to the greeks.Show me where the greeks cooperated with the macedonians wgo were considered as barbarians.Alexander still had to keep the greeks under arms when he went to fight the persians.Alexander stationed garrisons of macedonians because he didn't trust the greeks that they might revolt,he had to fortify it before going away.Todays greeks are only too happy to say that the greeks & macedonians were the same & appropriate the glory.Do people know how much hate & resentment the greeks had for the macedonians enough to wage a couple of anti macedonian wars.Most of the stuff written by greeks is on macedonians hundreds of years after the event.Do you think people that harbour hate & resentment would not lie & tell the truth of course not."Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEVComment
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Neither the first (all the Hellenes were city states) nor the second (ruled by their invented method of democracy) is true.Thessaly and certain regions of Epirus didn't consist of city-states but rather resembled the Macedonian constitution,with a strong central monarchic administration.Have you ever heard of the Aleuadai,an aristocratic family that ruled Thessaly for some centuries:Originally posted by makedonche View Post
The Molossians in Epirus were also ruled by kings (remember Alexander's mother Olympias was a Molossian princess) :
The same happened in many other Greek cities,Corinth,Sikyon,Syracuse and other Greek colonies in Sicily...the Spartan constitution wasn't democratic either,and the same goes for most of Sparta's Peloponnesian allies."What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35Comment
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I've been very busy the last months.I watch once in a while your forum but can hardly find some free time to post.Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Well,I would not ask this question but it was first you who introduced this topic (the view of 19th century Macedonian scholars about ancient Macedonians)Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Laskaris is known as one of the first educated Byzantines who promoted the revival of the term "Hellene" with its ethnic meaning,just make a small google research.It is very clear in what context he used the referrence to Alexander.Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
As I said above,I don't have too much free time to include the complete list within one post,so I shall quote only few each time.Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
1) Laonikos Chalcocondylis,Byzantine 15th century historian:
"So the Hellenes earned great glory,having demonstrated great and praiseworthy deeds,some of them in Europe and even in Libya (he means probably Africa in general),also reaching even Gagges and Oceanus (the Atlantic) and Caucasus,and in those lands had come before many others and especially Hercules,and even earlier Dionysus,the son of Semele,and afterwards the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians,and after them the king of the Macedonians and those that succeeded him in power,and these events have been remembered and recorded as they have occurred by many other authors.Hellenes accomplished this over a long period of time."
2) Rigas Feraios,late 18th century:
Some verses of his "Patriotic Hymn":
Well,get rid off tyrrany
and slavery at once
our example is
the memories of our ancestors
and their way of life
ito the fire,ye lads!
Chieftains brothers
heroes,admirable men
the time has come,fight
don't let tyrrants
to drown our brothers
to the fire,ye lads!
So that liberty shall shine again
as it was once among you;
they should errect
golden crowns for centuries
to remind you
to the fire,ye lads!
Alexander,you should now come out
from your grave and see
the great courage
of the Macedonians once again
how they defeat the enemies
and how they rush to the fire
Where does Leonidas live
together with his 300 men
to see the Spartan
how he rushes like horse
and runs for glory
with joy to the fire
So those wonderful heroes
and other distinguished men
we should now imitate
don't let us waste our time
because they're our ancestors;
to the fire,ye lads!
3)Panajiotis Kodrikas' "Study of the Koine (Common) Hellenic dialect",1818
(The date is written in the ancient Greek number system,AΩΙΗ=1818:
http://www.fargonasphere.com/piso/numcode.html).
"Thus ancient Doric suffered the first change when it merged with the akin Aeolic;and during its later evolution it was subdivided in many local and rural idioms.And the first specific dialects that derive from it are the dialect of the Macedonians,of the Thessalians,of the Epirotans,of the Boetians,of the Cretans,of the Chalkideans and of the Sicilians. "
"However this common dialect of all Hellenes was not still the same that was used by Homer,nor the same with the dialect in which Pindar wrote his verses.The supremacy of the Macedonians during the monarchy of Alexander the Great and furthermore during the multiple rule of his succesors,spread throughout Greece and in Athens itself the Macedonian dialect,which,in comparison with the archaic language,was the first dialect that was called Hellenic,because the first land that was called Hellas was Macedonia,named so after Makedon,the son of Zeus and Theia,the daughter of Deucalion."
"Under its newer form,which was spread throughout the whole Macedonian dominion,the Macedonian dialect was by nature genuine Greek,but due to the circumstances mixed,not only with all the local dialects of the Greek language but with foreign words and phrases as well,which were borrowed by the Persian,Syrian,Hebrew and Egyptian language for common use.Thus,under the term Macedonian dialect is here meant not that archaic language of the Hellenes and mother of all ancient dialects,but that common dialect that was created out of mixing all those dialects and which was spoken and used by all Hellenes of that time.""What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35Comment
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Well,Korais was actually not certain whether ancient Macedonians were Greeks or not.Besides these two pages you've posted,there is another one you've omited,which reads:Originally posted by Orfej View PostAs i see, you completely agree that Adamantios Korais didn't viewed the Ancient Macedonians as Greeks. That's not surprising since all contemporary historians (Greek or foreign) agree on the matter. But if we take a look at Adamantios Korais writings we can find at least one sentence which looks ''suspicious'' regarding his thoughts on the Macedonians. For example here:
Korais states:
Now if we didn't explicitly knew Korais thoughts about the Ancient Macedonians not being Greeks, this sentence would have been misleading. Even more, some Greek troll may have tried to fool us in believing the opposite, that Korais in fact thought that the Ancient Macedonians were Greeks. But in this case, that would be impossible.This thread alone has abundance of authors which confirm what you and me already know, that Korais looked at the Macedonians as enslavers of Greece.
You may ask yourself what's my point, why do i write all this?! It's because i want to show you that one sentence is not enough to learn what a person believes are. As you see from Korais it can even be quite misleading. That's why your ''arguments'' regarding the pre-Korais intellectuals who allegedly considered the Macedonians as Greeks is far-fetched. To draw a conclusions based on one sentence from their book is ridiculous. To make a whole theory out of it is insane.
As you can see, on this thread you will find many authors(both Greek and foreign) who confirm how the Greek intellectuals looked at the Ancient Macedonians. They drew their conclusions based on all of the writings of these Greek intellectuals. That's how scholars work, the opposite from how you work which can be described as propaganda for the ignorant.
PS:These Greek intellectuals you quoted wrote hundreds of pages about the ''Greek history''. Are the sentences you previously quoted all that they wrote about the Ancient Macedonians, the ones that allegedly are such an important part of your history?
"Hellenes were subjugated first to the succesors of Alexander.But this wasn't still that bad,because Alexander's succesors were perhaps Hellenes themselves."
Well, first he states "Maybe ancient Macedonians were Greek,maybe not" and then he speaks as he prefers the first option,however I accept for the sake of the argument he didn't considered them as Greeks despite his self-contradictions."What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35Comment
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This is Western influence and a political rhetoric at its highest. There is nothing "native" about Rhigas's poem, nor historical. It wasn't something "passed on" in the village. All you have presented here is a thinly veiled attempt at bullshite, to try to deceive the unsuspecting that the non existent "Greeks" on the ground and other Albanians believed at the community level that Aleksandar Veliki was an ancestor. He is simply referencing Western diatribe.Originally posted by Agamoi Thytai View PostI've been very busy the last months.I watch once in a while your forum but can hardly find some free time to post.
Well,I would not ask this question but it was first you who introduced this topic (the view of 19th century Macedonian scholars about ancient Macedonians)
Laskaris is known as one of the first educated Byzantines who promoted the revival of the term "Hellene" with its ethnic meaning,just make a small google research.It is very clear in what context he used the referrence to Alexander.
As I said above,I don't have too much free time to include the complete list within one post,so I shall quote only few each time.
1) Laonikos Chalcocondylis,Byzantine 15th century historian:
"So the Hellenes earned great glory,having demonstrated great and praiseworthy deeds,some of them in Europe and even in Libya (he means probably Africa in general),also reaching even Gagges and Oceanus (the Atlantic) and Caucasus,and in those lands had come before many others and especially Hercules,and even earlier Dionysus,the son of Semele,and afterwards the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians,and after them the king of the Macedonians and those that succeeded him in power,and these events have been remembered and recorded as they have occurred by many other authors.Hellenes accomplished this over a long period of time."
2) Rigas Feraios,late 18th century:
Some verses of his "Patriotic Hymn":
Well,get rid off tyrrany
and slavery at once
our example is
the memories of our ancestors
and their way of life
ito the fire,ye lads!
Chieftains brothers
heroes,admirable men
the time has come,fight
don't let tyrrants
to drown our brothers
to the fire,ye lads!
So that liberty shall shine again
as it was once among you;
they should errect
golden crowns for centuries
to remind you
to the fire,ye lads!
Alexander,you should now come out
from your grave and see
the great courage
of the Macedonians once again
how they defeat the enemies
and how they rush to the fire
Where does Leonidas live
together with his 300 men
to see the Spartan
how he rushes like horse
and runs for glory
with joy to the fire
So those wonderful heroes
and other distinguished men
we should now imitate
don't let us waste our time
because they're our ancestors;
to the fire,ye lads!
3)Panajiotis Kodrikas' "Study of the Koine (Common) Hellenic dialect",1818
(The date is written in the ancient Greek number system,AΩΙΗ=1818:
http://www.fargonasphere.com/piso/numcode.html).
"Thus ancient Doric suffered the first change when it merged with the akin Aeolic;and during its later evolution it was subdivided in many local and rural idioms.And the first specific dialects that derive from it are the dialect of the Macedonians,of the Thessalians,of the Epirotans,of the Boetians,of the Cretans,of the Chalkideans and of the Sicilians. "
"However this common dialect of all Hellenes was not still the same that was used by Homer,nor the same with the dialect in which Pindar wrote his verses.The supremacy of the Macedonians during the monarchy of Alexander the Great and furthermore during the multiple rule of his succesors,spread throughout Greece and in Athens itself the Macedonian dialect,which,in comparison with the archaic language,was the first dialect that was called Hellenic,because the first land that was called Hellas was Macedonia,named so after Makedon,the son of Zeus and Theia,the daughter of Deucalion."
"Under its newer form,which was spread throughout the whole Macedonian dominion,the Macedonian dialect was by nature genuine Greek,but due to the circumstances mixed,not only with all the local dialects of the Greek language but with foreign words and phrases as well,which were borrowed by the Persian,Syrian,Hebrew and Egyptian language for common use.Thus,under the term Macedonian dialect is here meant not that archaic language of the Hellenes and mother of all ancient dialects,but that common dialect that was created out of mixing all those dialects and which was spoken and used by all Hellenes of that time."Comment
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AgamoiOriginally posted by Agamoi Thytai View PostNeither the first (all the Hellenes were city states) nor the second (ruled by their invented method of democracy) is true.Thessaly and certain regions of Epirus didn't consist of city-states but rather resembled the Macedonian constitution,with a strong central monarchic administration.Have you ever heard of the Aleuadai,an aristocratic family that ruled Thessaly for some centuries:
The Molossians in Epirus were also ruled by kings (remember Alexander's mother Olympias was a Molossian princess) :
The same happened in many other Greek cities,Corinth,Sikyon,Syracuse and other Greek colonies in Sicily...the Spartan constitution wasn't democratic either,and the same goes for most of Sparta's Peloponnesian allies.
Rubbish! Read what Borza has to say:-
Here is some crystal clear evidence of a Monarchy conquering "City States" and enforcing the Kings rule over the city states.[1] "Neither Greeks nor Macedonians considered the Macedonians to be Greeks."
[2] On the composition of Alexander's army: "Thus we look in vain for the evidence that Alexander was heavily dependent upon Greeks either in quantity or quality."
[3] "The pattern is clear: the trend toward the end of the king's life was to install Macedonians in key positions at the expense of Asians, and to retain very few Greeks."
[4] "The conclusion is inescapable: there was a largely ethnic Macedonian imperial administration from beginning to end. Alexander used Greeks in court for cultural reasons, Greek troops (often under Macedonian commanders) for limited tasks and with some discomfort, and Greek commanders and officals for limited duties. Typically, a Greek will enter Alexander's service from an Aegean or Asian city through the practice of some special activity: he could read and write, keep figures or sail, all of which skills the Macedonians required. Some Greeks may have moved on to military service as well. In other words, the role of Greeks in Alexander's service was not much different from what their role had been in the services of Xerxes and the third Darius."
[5] On the policy of hellenization with Alexander conquest of Asia and the Greek assertion that he spread Hellenism: "If one wishes to believe that Alexander had a policy of hellenization - as opposed to the incidental and informal spread of Greek culture - the evidence must come from sources other than those presented here. One wonders - archeology aside - where this evidence would be." On the ethnic tension between Macedonians and Greeks, referring to the episode of Eumenes of Cardia and his bid to reach the throne: "And if there were any doubt about the status of Greeks among the Macedonians the tragic career of Eumenes in the immediate Wars of succession should put it to rest. The ancient sources are replete with information about the ethnic prejudice Eumenes suffered from Macedonians."
[6] On the issue of whether Alexander and Philip "united" the Greek city-states or conquered them: "In European Greece Alexander continued and reinforced Philip II's policy of rule over the city-states, a rule resulting from conquest."
Source: Eugene BorzaOn Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"Comment
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Of course it was a poem that Rigas composed himself but nevertheless even among common people that were not educated,the figure of Alexander the Great was very known and popular,you're utterly wrong if you believe the opposite.In fact,as Peter Green (without doubt not a pro-Greek author,as you can judge from the rest of what he writes in the same page) wrote,"Alexander was the only figure from antiquity to survive,however mythicized,in the folk-consciousness of modern and medieval Greece":Originally posted by Pelister View Post
European travellers who visited in 19th century districts of southern Macedonia inhabited mainly by Greeks mention various traditions and myths about Alexander the Great:
Actually G.Abbott has cited W.Leake's account from 1835:
Perhaps the source of most such traditions was not folk memory,however it was not "western influence" either and nevertheless it shows how deep rooted is the figure of Alexander the Great in Greek collective memory even through literrary sources that were very popular for cneturies:Probably it was the "Chap-book of Alexander the Great" (the known "history of Alexnader" of Pseudo-Callisthenes) which,as G.Abbott wrote in 1903, "has long been and still is a favourite reading of the lower classes all over the Greek world":
Hell,there are traditions about Alexander among the Greeks of Macedonia recorded even in 16th century,long before any "western influence" or philhellenism,romanticism e.t.c reached the Balkans!The French Pierre Bellon wrote in 1553 about a tradition in the village of Chalastra,near ancient Philippi in the district of Kavala,that the locals called this city "city of Bucephalus" and they believed that there was the manger where Alexander the Great's horse ate.
"Les habitans du pays en sont une fable enti eulx,estimants que c'est la mangeoire de la iument d' Alexandre le Grand.Mais par la iument fault entendre Bucephalus"
Traditions about Alexander are spread all over Greece:
Anyway,back in the main topic:
1) "Modern Geography" by Daniel Philippidis and Grigorios Konstantas,1791,vol.1 "including European Turkey,Italy,Spain.France and Portugal"
"Οι πρώτοι κάτοικοι της Μακεδονίας ήταν εκείνοι όπου ήταν και της Ελλάδος"=The first inhabitants of Macedonia were the same with those of Greece:
"So Demosthenes was not right to call Macedonians barbarians;instead,at that time this appellation fitted better to the case of the Athenians rather than to the Macedonians".
"The Greek ethnos was widespread in the time of Alexander the Great,however this great man,as soon as he managed to conquer all of Asia with an astonishing swiftness,he died equally unexpectedly,what a bad fortune for them (the Greeks),for philosophy and for mankind,leaving his great empire in great disturbance.The situation got even worse,due to the Greek tendency for civil wars,and the disastrous results were immediately to be seen:because the Indians rebelled,the Parthians drove them (the Greeks) out of Persia,the Romans from the other side too,since they had conquered all Italy,whose part was Magna Grecia,then they steped foot in Greece proper and in time they subjugated even Greece and the rest of Asia and Egypt,being assisted in this task by the Greeks themselves;for they willingly collaborated to become slaves of the Romans".
"The religion of the Macedonians was the same with the rest of the ethne of Hellas".
"Describing Hellas,I will include a larger area than the Europeans do,and subsequently a much larger than that of the old geographers;for the same reason that the older called Macedonia Hellas too,and the younger ones Thrace as well."
"Hellas proper included (in ancient times) the part of the country to the south of Thessaly,to which was added Thessaly,Epirus,Illyria,Macedonia and the adjacent islands"
"Modern Hellas is now divided into European and Asiatic Hellas;European Hellas includes,starting from the south,1 Peloponnesus,2 Hellas proper,3 Thessaly,4 Epirus,5 Albania,6 Macedonia,7 Thrace,8 Crete,9 The rest of the Aegean islands that belong to Europe,10 the Ionian islands."
2) "Old and New Geography" written by Meletios,Bishop of Athens,in αψκη=1728. ('α=1000,ψ=700,κ=20,η=8).
“Hellas was at first called only Hellas proper and Thessaly,sharing a common name,as if they were one region,which were later separated..Hence Homer calls Hellenes only the Phthiotans,Herodotus them and the Pelasgians while Athenaeus,book 14 mentions three Hellenic tribes,the Dorians,the Aeolians and the Ionians.Later was Peloponnesus called Hellas too,Epirus too,the whole of Macedonia and lastly Crete and the rest of the Aegean islands were called Hellas too.And after that the name Hellas was extended even to Italy and to Sicily,and a big part of Italy was called Great Hellas (Magna Grecia).Likewise the name Hellas reached even Asia,which was called Asiatic Hellas,to distinguish it from the other,as we will see in the chapter about Asia.”
“Thus,what is considered as Hellas includes as its regions,the whole of Macedonia,Epirus,Aetolia,Boetia,Peloponnesus,the Ionian and the Aegean islands,Thessaly,and if there is some other region too,we shall talk about it…”
3)Dionysios Pyrros the Thessalian,1818 and "Methodic Geography of the whole universe,on behalf of his friends and pupils and the Hellenic genus"
“She (Hellas) is today subjugated to the despotic rule of the Turk emperor,the so-called Sultan,who descends from the interior of great Asia,which was once utterly defeated by the Macedonian Alexander the Great”
“Hellas was called in older times only Thessaly.Therefore,divine Homer calls Hellenes only the Thessalians and especially the Pthiotians,and Herodotus too calls Hellenes them and the Pelasgians.After that,various other regions were called Hellas too,namely Attica,Peloponnesus,Epirus,Macedonia,Thrace,Ionia and the whole Aegean e.t.c.”
“As long as the sciences,the arts and Philosophy were thriving in Hellas,the bright Hellenes shined with their virtues among all other nations.As long as there were living those great minds of the world,Alexander the Great,Pyrrhus,Leonidas,Themistocles,Pericles,
Miltiades,Aristotle,divine Socrates,the Hellenes were triumphant against all other nations of the world.But since the sciences and the Muses are absent from Hellas,all lights of philosophy and virtue have been totally extinguished,all good things in Greece have been immediately vanished.Unhappy Hellas!What you were once,what you are now and how you’ll end up!"
“The Hellenes,says Mr.Gasparis,the descendands of those ancient Hellenes who due to their noble ethics,a privilege which is a result of the sciences and the arts,and their extreme activity,bravery,patriotism,became the first of all races,which became the teachers of all other European races.These present day Hellenes are identical with their great ancestors in regards to the beliefs,that is they are hospitable too,patriotic,studious,devoted to God and confident in their faith,which is peculiar only to proper Hellenes….All Hellenes,especially the Macedonians and the Thessalians are hospitable…”
In the table below there are included the names of Alexander,Ptolemy Philadelphos and many other Macedonian kings under the legend "Oι από Ελλήνων βασιλεύσαντες ενδόξως"="those of the Hellenes that reigned gloriously".
Dionysios Pyrros also wrote a history of Alexander the Great in 1845,with the following description on the preface:
"Life,deeds and exploits of the Macedonian Alexander the Great:composed out of the writings of ancient Hellene authors and interpreted in Neohellenic,with the ancient and the modern names of the cities and of their current inhabitants,with the addition of a map of Alexander's campaign.Printed for first time now,to the benefit of the studious Hellenes"
"What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35Comment
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I can't understand in what sense is considered as "Crystal clear evidence" what Borza wrote!Was he an eye witness?I can also quote dozens of other modern historians who oppose Borza's view and explain why Macedonia and some other Greek tribes had monarchical constitutions,why should the works of these historians not be considered as "crystal clear evidence"?Originally posted by makedonche View Post
"What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?"
Polybius, Histories, 9.35Comment
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agamoi you should read where the greeks hated the macedonians so much that they refused to cooperate with their captors even in the fighting of a common enemy persia.
Alexander even put macedonian garrisons to keep an eye on the greeks in greeceas he didn't trust them in case they revoltedAlso aleander did not include any fronline troops because he wanted the macedonians to get the glory so he put them at the back.Also there were more greeks fighting against alexander & the macedonians than greeks on alexanders side.
Also you don't mention the numerous ANTIMacedonian wars waged by greece on macedonia to shake of the macedonian yoke.Of course you might not mention things that matter.Also alexanders army was macedonian & commanders spoke macedonian to their soldiers rather than greek.
So the greeks harbored nothing but deep hate & resentment towards the macedonians all along.Because of that hate & resentment the greeks tried to portray macedonia as the same as greece.But they forget that they weren't the same why would brother fight brother??"Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
GOTSE DELCEVComment
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AgamoiOriginally posted by Agamoi Thytai View PostI can't understand in what sense is considered as "Crystal clear evidence" what Borza wrote!Was he an eye witness?I can also quote dozens of other modern historians who oppose Borza's view and explain why Macedonia and some other Greek tribes had monarchical constitutions,why should the works of these historians not be considered as "crystal clear evidence"?
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I'm not surprised one little bit you don't understand, if you don't know the difference in how a monarchy is ruled and how the city states were ruled, then you will never understand! Perhaps it's your lack of objective critical thinking which stems from your ethnicity and poor education that has produced your narrow minded views, I find you have much in common with your Greek brethren.
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As usual you haven't checked your references/links too well, have a closer look at them and tell me what contradictions between authors you may notice!Last edited by makedonche; 08-10-2011, 01:52 AM.On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"Comment
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