18th-19th century 'greek' intellectuals saw Anc. Maks as conquerors

[Voltron]

Go ahead post something. Last one I noticed from your girlfriends forum was Georgios Sakelleriou. Visit that post on their forum and then visit the top of page 3 on this topic.

Now as to the reality of the newly made Bavarian Kingdom of the Balkans in the early nineteenth century and this ideology I will soon present something to the forum.

TM, I meant it as a rhetorical question. It wont change our opinion on the matter so there is no point in posting.

As far as your Bavarian-Droysen-Phihellenic theories of Greece

[Soldier of Macedon]

I dont find it appropriate to use other peoples sources and posting it here as my own to debate about.

Don't be silly mate, post the sources here and then add your own comments. The sources don't belong to the individuals that make comment on them, they are free to use.

What I can say is that there are sources at the time that confirm the Hellenic nature of Ancient Macedonians from Greek intellectuals from the same time period and even before the 19th century.

Who are they? How many of them?

Also, I find it hard to understand that even if this is the case, what does this have to do with you ?

It has everything to do with us, because your people weren't claiming a false Macedonian heritage when you were established as a modern nation in the early 19th century, but now we hear all sorts of lies coming from Anatolians that have absolutely no history in Macedonia prior to the 1920's.

This is a mute point and to try to politicize these people's opinions against the majority of Greeks that believe in the Hellenic nature of Ancient Macedonians is a mistake

The majority of Greeks didn't believe the same thing they do today. That is not a mute point at all, instead it highlights the evolving Greek ideology that corresponds with the expansionist aims of the Greek state throughout the 19th century.

Provide your sources, or stop doing what that emoticon is doing in your previous post.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Don't be silly mate, post the sources here and then add your own comments. The sources don't belong to the individuals that make comment on them, they are free to use.

I know they dont belong to the individuals. I didnt want to use somebody elses effort in posting them just to try and prove something here. In any case, I might just do that if I have time.

It has everything to do with us, because your people weren't claiming a false Macedonian heritage when you were established as a modern nation in the early 19th century, but now we hear all sorts of lies coming from Anatolians that have absolutely no history in Macedonia prior to the 1920's.

My "people" werent claiming a Spartan heritage either SOM. Nobody ever gave it much thought that we would have to debate the obvious one day.

The majority of Greeks didn't believe the same thing they do today. That is not a mute point at all, instead it highlights the evolving Greek ideology that corresponds with the expansionist aims of the Greek state throughout the 19th century.

Thats a gross misconception being made. Our expansionist reasons for trying to obtain land in the balkans were in fact based on historical realities.

Provide your sources, or stop doing what that emoticon is doing in your previous post.

Fair enough.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I know they dont belong to the individuals. I didnt want to use somebody elses effort in posting them just to try and prove something here. In any case, I might just do that if I have time.

Post the sources and use your own logic to come to a conclusion, no need for the personal assessment of someone else from another forum.

My "people" werent claiming a Spartan heritage either SOM. Nobody ever gave it much thought that we would have to debate the obvious one day.

That's an oxymoron, Voltron. If they weren't claiming such a heritage then it cannot have been an obvious element. And as these 18th and 19th century intellectuals (who you would consider ancestors) claimed, the only thing obvious was the prevailing opinion that the ancient Macedonians weren't Greek.

Thats a gross misconception being made. Our expansionist reasons for trying to obtain land in the balkans were in fact based on historical realities.

Talk about gross misconceptions....historical reality says the Greek state usurped far more territory than it should have, in places where the native languages were not Greek. But that is a topic discussed on other threads and can be followed up there if required.

[TrueMacedonian]

Voltron said:

Thats a gross misconception being made. Our expansionist reasons for trying to obtain land in the balkans were in fact based on historical realities.

SoM said:

Talk about gross misconceptions....historical reality says the Greek state usurped far more territory than it should have, in places where the native languages were not Greek. But that is a topic discussed on other threads and can be followed up there if required.

I think I may start a new topic later concerning this claim of their's SoM. Give me a little time.

[George S.]

?a gross misconception being made. Our expansionist reasons for trying to obtain land in the balkans were in fact based on historical realities." please explain that to us where by historical right greece had a right to a land grab in 1913.What historical roights/?

[George S.]

If one examines greek claims like the macedonians must have been greek they spoke greek.That claim can be easilly refuted when one cosiders that the macedonian royalty spoke greek only for commercial reasons.The normal macedonian never needed to speak greek.That the macedonians were related is pure myth which can be easily refuted when the greeks arrived the macedonians were allready there many millenia before them.Claim the macedonians of today they are nothing but slavs that can easily be refuted the same slavs went through hellas.One overlooked fact is the name macedonia has survived since prehistoric times till present times.Greeece has never been known by the name macedonia.In 1913 macedonia was divided up amongst the 4 ravenous wolves who all stated that macedonia belonged to them.Buklgaria wanted the whole of macedonia.It is said greece wanted more as they weren't satisfied with their share.

[TrueMacedonian]

[TrueMacedonian]

Macedonia is completely left out of the equation below.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5652

[Agamoi Thytai]

Can you show us how many references there are of Macedonians from the Ottoman period that rejected a historical connection to the ancient Macedonians?

To begin with,how many Macedonians in 13th century claimed a historical or ethnic connection to ancient Macedonians?I mean something like this:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/lascalexgreat.gif

Well,i don't have any problem with "exploiting the efforts of other people" as Voltron said.I saw in some post of that thread the name of Athanasios Stageiritis being mentioned,with the accusation that he allegedly "didn't include Macedonia in the map of Greece" in a geography book he had published.Hardly to believe it,since Stageiritis himself was from Macedonia (Stageira of Halkidiki,the birthplace of Aristotle-hence his surname).Actually I don't know how this map looked like,however I know what Stageiritis wrote in his geography about ancient Macedonians.This is the cover of his 'Hellenic Geography",1818:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/stageircov.jpg

And this what he wrote about ancient Macedonians:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/stageiritis6.jpg

"That’s why it is good and necessary to compose a general history of the Hellenes,according to the present conditions of the genus,usefull to everyone,and separate for every ethnos*,from the beginning till the end of every ethnos,so that we understand better the deeds of our ancestors.That is,especially the history of the Athenians,the Argives,the Lacedaemonians,the Elians,the Achaeans,the Arcadians,the Sicyonians,the Corinthians,the Boetians,the Thessalians,the Macedonians,the Epirotans,the Byzantians,the Ionians,the Cretans and others.”

*Stageiritis uses here the word "ethnos" with the meaning of the ancient Greek authors,i.e. "tribe","clan".

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/fc123344d7149a52d7d75742dec393ec.jpg

"That's why we see in the Byzantine time different features in Greece,odd and strange.There also occured great changes during the Macedonian era,though these didn't look alien,barbarian and weird,because the Macedonians were Hellenes.Then was Therma renamed to Thessaloniki,Pallene to Kassandra e.t.c.There were also added some new names too,Demetrias,Antigoneia,Stratonice and others,but all these are names of the Greek tongue"

I can find and post much more similar abstracts of other early 19th,18th and 17th century Greek scholars who considered ancient Macedonians as Greeks.

[Pelister]

Macedonians have ALWAYS claimed to be the descendants of the ancient Macedonians.

This local information and private knowledge has been passed on orally over many thousands of years. You need it in writing. I am saying that it is in our songs, our poems, our ballads and everything else. As for the New Greeks (such as yourself) you all live in a sham past, with your fake heritage. New Greeks are not the descendants of the ancient Greeks, and New Greeks have no historical and cultural right to any territory on that basis. This applies to Macedonian territory especially, as much as anything else in the region.

[George S.]

pelister i wholeheartedly support what you have said.I would like to add that what's missing here is the respect that comes from that.The turks realised for 500 years & respected that we are macedonians whils't the greeks do not show us any respect.I suppose deep down they know all about their wporthless selves.They think they can lie ,cheat & steal along the way.But that's all they will be lyers,cheaters & thieves.The greeks should know that we have a link with the past,it has been proven with testing of our dna & other tests.We are connected with the ancients as their has been a complete continuity from our prehistoric past to the present.No body can deny us ecept paranoidal greeks who have nothing better to do than to cover up their tracks for the 1913 occupation & land grab justification.Their justification is that they freed macedonia from the turks which is a lie so that they could grab their land.Also they began propaganda & forced assmmilation of the macedonian people.Until eventually they denied the macedonian existence & began to show through lies & propaganda that macedonians & greeks were the same.This is totally untrue.

[Stojacanec]

To begin with,how many Macedonians in 13th century claimed a historical or ethnic connection to ancient Macedonians?I mean something like this:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/lascalexgreat.gif

Well,i don't have any problem with "exploiting the efforts of other people" as Voltron said.I saw in some post of that thread the name of Athanasios Stageiritis being mentioned,with the accusation that he allegedly "didn't include Macedonia in the map of Greece" in a geography book he had published.Hardly to believe it,since Stageiritis himself was from Macedonia (Stageira of Halkidiki,the birthplace of Aristotle-hence his surname).Actually I don't know how this map looked like,however I know what Stageiritis wrote in his geography about ancient Macedonians.This is the cover of his 'Hellenic Geography",1818:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/stageircov.jpg

And this what he wrote about ancient Macedonians:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/stageiritis6.jpg

"That’s why it is good and necessary to compose a general history of the Hellenes,according to the present conditions of the genus,usefull to everyone,and separate for every ethnos*,from the beginning till the end of every ethnos,so that we understand better the deeds of our ancestors.That is,especially the history of the Athenians,the Argives,the Lacedaemonians,the Elians,the Achaeans,the Arcadians,the Sicyonians,the Corinthians,the Boetians,the Thessalians,the Macedonians,the Epirotans,the Byzantians,the Ionians,the Cretans and others.”

*Stageiritis uses here the word "ethnos" with the meaning of the ancient Greek authors,i.e. "tribe","clan".

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/fc123344d7149a52d7d75742dec393ec.jpg

"That's why we see in the Byzantine time different features in Greece,odd and strange.There also occured great changes during the Macedonian era,though these didn't look alien,barbarian and weird,because the Macedonians were Hellenes.Then was Therma renamed to Thessaloniki,Pallene to Kassandra e.t.c.There were also added some new names too,Demetrias,Antigoneia,Stratonice and others,but all these are names of the Greek tongue"

I can find and post much more similar abstracts of other early 19th,18th and 17th century Greek scholars who considered ancient Macedonians as Greeks.

The Macedonians took on some traits from the southern Greek city states it doesn't mean they were Hellenes. Alexander and Philip united with these city states by force not through some natural unification process. The Greeks revolted when they could.

Alexander even sent back all Greeks that fought a Greek crusade after the battle of Gaugamela.

There were clear distinctions made between Ancient Macedonians and the Greeks. Koine was used as the language of the courts because Macedonians did not have a literary language.

Most of European people were illiterate right through to 7th, 8th century AD. Many took up Latin for the literary language of their church, court under the roman kingdom.

Are you confused, were your ancestors Macedonian or Greek?

[Agamoi Thytai]

The Macedonians took on some traits from the southern Greek city states it doesn't mean they were Hellenes. Alexander and Philip united with these city states by force not through some natural unification process. The Greeks revolted when they could.

Alexander even sent back all Greeks that fought a Greek crusade after the battle of Gaugamela.

There were clear distinctions made between Ancient Macedonians and the Greeks. Koine was used as the language of the courts because Macedonians did not have a literary language.

Most of European people were illiterate right through to 7th, 8th century AD. Many took up Latin for the literary language of their church, court under the roman kingdom.

Are you confused, were your ancestors Macedonian or Greek?

Stojacanec,the topic here is not whether ancient Macedonians were Greeks or a distinct people but whether 19th and 18th century Greek scholars considered ancient Macedonians as Greeks or not.SoM and TrueMacedonian have posted so far some interesting quotes that show certain Greek scholars considered Macedonians as a non-Greek people.It's true,I don't deny it,there were indeed in 19th century some Greek scholars who held that view.They were mainly influenced by the leading Greek scholar of that time,Adamantios Korais,who lived in Paris and was an admirer of French enlightenment. He had developed first the view in 1794 that the Macedonians were not Greeks and then because of his prestige he transmitted the idea to some intellectuals of the early Greek state.Now the question is why did Koraes believed that the Macedonians were not Greeks?It is easy to answer if you know Koraes' beliefs.Besides of admiring French enlightenment he also was a romantic worshipper of ancient Athens.Not only did Koraes thought of the ancient Athenian democracy and the superior Athenian culture as the ultimate ideal, he made it clear that the Athenians were the ones "modern Greeks should imitate in order to come closer to their ancient ancestors".It is obvious then that Koraes thought less of the Macedonians because of their monarchic constitution as opposed to Athenian democracy and because they were the ones who ended the athenian autonomy,so he was predisposed to take Demosthenes' side in the ancient debate about the ethnicity of Macedonians.The same hatred he had for autarchic Philip, Koraes also had for the equally autarchic first ruler of the modern Greek state,Ioannis Kapodistrias, whom he even called "a tyrant". And, at this point there can't be any doubt that one of the basic reasons that made him hate Byzantium was it's imperial administration:

http://v1.iimmgg.com/images/is8gr/dedc5ca1074d05ebb10efa3473cfd3bd.png

Now since I saw SoM urging Voltron to post any quote he could find that opposes Korais view,i thought it's our turn to show the view of some other Greek scholars of 19th,18th and earlier centuries who considered ancient Macedonians as Greeks,if you want to see the opposite claim.Before Korais time,almost all Greek scholars considered ancient Macedonians as Greeks.F.e.,Georgios Fatseas published in Venice (1760) "Grammar of Geography,dedicated to the pious race of the Greeks who live in Venice",written "in the simple dialect of the Hellenes" (much closer to the colloquial Greek language of that time than to the archaic katharevousa) :

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/FATZGEORCOVA.gif

Abstarct from pages 145-146:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/FATZGEORG145.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/FRATZGEOR146.gif

"Political administration.Greece had in older times so good military leaders,who were an example for other nations that were ruled by kings.Under the leadership of her marshalls,Greece was strenghtened and her glory increased so much that it once became a great power,thank to the glorious achievements of her heroes,especially of the Macedonian Alexander the Great.But alas,how human achievements are destroyed!She has been deprived of her brightness and her glory and fell into such conditions that one barely can find traces of the former glory.The people,that is the Hellenes,are subjugated to Turkish tyranny."

Another educated Greek of 18th century,Ioannis Pringos,a wealthy merchant who lived in Amsterdam,while expecting in 1768 Russian aid for the liberation of Greece from Ottoman slavery,eigth years later wrote that "what is needed is someone of our race to arise and lead our countrymen...raise up,my God,another Alexander,who,as he drove the Persians out of Greece,may expel this tyrant so that Christianity will once again shine in the Greek lands,as of old".

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/pringos1.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/pringos2.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/pringos3.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/pringos4.gif

[George S.]

you greek people desrve a good whipping as you keep saying the common enemy was turkey but in reality you were the enemy.You took away people's landsin 1913 & did a lot of xrazy things on the people.Your western mates propped you up so you can be liberated & steal our lands 80 years after.You had irrensdist behaviour for a long time even trying to convert people to your vrand of religion.Don't forget your history of revision of borders & land grabbing.Probably slapping the serbs on their backs for a job well done.