18th-19th century 'greek' intellectuals saw Anc. Maks as conquerors

[El Bre]

Mango, im not the minority. Im the majority. Where do you think we learned our language from ? Church lessons ? Seriously man.A better example is the Taliban. They despise the west and look how they live.
Greeks do not despise America, that is a completely false.

It's not out of the realm of possibility. Go to any village in western Aegean Macedonia and you'll find people speaking a language today that was completely foreign to their great grandparents. So you can't possibly know.

[George S.]

it has a lot to do with the ethnic cosciousness as you can see albanians in the navy expressing themselves in albanian & they have an ethnic albanian consciousness.ONe can say that the albanian roots are still there.Also you have the vlach consciousness that they are conscious of their language traditions even though the greek gov tried to erradicate their ethnic consciousness is still there.Look at the macedonian afflictions being prevented from speaking the macedonian idiom & to be free to speak & express in the macedonian mother tounge.Many times the greeks tried to erradicate any macedonian cosciousness by telling & forcing people to identify as greeks.But despite this the conciosness of the ethnic minorities cannot be toally erradicated.The macedonians of rom are genetically connected to the ancient macedonians as tests have proven.The fact that we are and feel as macedonians should be enough to tell the world we are macedonians.Genetics tell that we are macedonians.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Macedonians not being Greek is the myth SOM, not logic.

The only myth is the one that fools like yourself conjure. Macedonians weren't Greek then, and they aren't Greek now. When one takes ALL of the evidence collectively, that is the logical interpretation.

Greek history is one of the most well documented histories we have on this planet. We dont need to "spin" it.

The history of Greeks isn't the problem, it is the way people like you 'spin' it which is the problem.

There is simply nothing out there to prove Anc. Macedonians werent Greek.

There is plenty right here on this forum if you open your eyes. Over the last few days you have been creeping these sort of comments in more and more, denying the existence of Macedonians and their own historical identity. You won't be permitted to do this for much longer. Your views are well known, and you don't even have half a peanut in that skull of yours to argue anything at all, let alone convincingly. All you seem to be doing is repeating the same garbage that one could easily find on a forum run by your fellow deludes. You've made your point, stupid as it is. If you have no argument other than repeating the same statement, then you have no place in this discussion.

Laskaris is known as one of the first educated Byzantines who promoted the revival of the term "Hellene" with its ethnic meaning,just make a small google research.It is very clear in what context he used the referrence to Alexander.

I wouldn't know the context as I haven't seen the text. And as I am not exactly prepared to take your word for it, I would rather read the actual text myself. Do you have it or not?

Laonikos Chalcocondylis,Byzantine 15th century historian:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/o...laonchalc5.gif

"So the Hellenes earned great glory,having demonstrated great and praiseworthy deeds,some of them in Europe and even in Libya (he means probably Africa in general),also reaching even Gagges and Oceanus (the Atlantic) and Caucasus,and in those lands had come before many others and especially Hercules,and even earlier Dionysus,the son of Semele,and afterwards the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians,and after them the king of the Macedonians and those that succeeded him in power,and these events have been remembered and recorded as they have occurred by many other authors.Hellenes accomplished this over a long period of time."

Why does he mention Lacedaemonians and Athenians as peoples, but then only mentions the king of the Macedonians?

Rigas Feraios,late 18th century:

Practically anybody would qualify as a Greek going by his definition, thus the fact that he would include the ancient Macedonians comes as no suprise. Makes it easy for Rigas' own people, the Vlachs, to also be included in this definition:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=394&highlight=rigas

Panajiotis Kodrikas' "Study of the Koine (Common) Hellenic dialect",1818

He bases his assumption on the false connection between the ancient Macedonian language and the Doric dialects of Greek, and some other fluff that he appears to have conjured himself. Nevertheless, the point isn't to assess whether or not their information is correct, but if they did claim a heritage from the ancient Macedonians. You've done this, so thank you, and if you have any more names you can add to that list, then do so.

To be honest, that Alexander and the ancient Macedonians would feature in some of the stories and traditions among the peoples that he conquered and/or ruled hardly comes as a suprise. This 'heritage' is akin to an Iranian, Indian or Pakistani claiming a 'heritage' from the Mongols, where there are several parallels:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1296

[mango]

Mango, im not the minority. Im the majority. Where do you think we learned our language from ? Church lessons ? Seriously man.

A better example is the Taliban. They despise the west and look how they live.
Greeks do not despise America, that is a completely false.

Whatever you are, minority or majority, you have no choice. In your country it's either being Greek or face state repression. And what language are we speaking about? Romaica?

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Exactly, so, we can agree that just because you were told that your family has been speaking Greek for a few generations, doesn't necessarily mean that your first ancestor was expelled from the anal cavity of Socrates.

I wasnt told anything El Bre, its common knowledge from people on the ground. If it was something taught to us we would have virtually the same dialect everywhere in Greece. This is not the case, my family from Messinia has a different dialect from other Greeks from Ileia for example.

By the way. When did I say Macedonians were ethnically pure? We are the product of all the peoples who have inhabited or passed through the Balkan Pennisula over the past few thousand years.

You didnt El Bre, and so far from what I have read from your posts you seem more of the levelheaded ones. Regarding your last sentence, agreed and this was exactly my point.

It's not out of the realm of possibility. Go to any village in western Aegean Macedonia and you'll find people speaking a language today that was completely foreign to their great grandparents. So you can't possibly know.

Im not from those villages in Greece and Il take your word for it.

Voltron, everyone knows the purest form of literal Greek is in the North of Greece. It does not contain dialects because they only recently learned it. If it makes you feel better, apparently some people say it was Zeus who taught them 80 years ago.

Risto there are Greeks from Macedonia that disagree with that statement. I have a cousin from Kozani area that is native to the region.

Whatever you are, minority or majority, you have no choice. In your country it's either being Greek or face state repression. And what language are we speaking about? Romaica?

Today you do have a choice Mango. It is not up to the government to teach you your native language. At the end of the day, it us up to your parents, community, and yourself.

[Agamoi Thytai]

It's interesting to note that Kolokotroni the Albanian hero of the greek revolution never once objected to what cochrane said to him concerning your imaginary ancestors (Both Macedonians and Hellenes);

Well,the thread is called "18th-19th century 'greek' intellectuals saw Anc. Maks as conquerors" while Kolokotronis was not an intellectual,so he doen't have any place here.

Nor does it bother many greeks today that the map found in Kolokotronis' memoirs leave out Macedonia;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2989

Now why would someone so important in your countrys recent history not promote the Alexander myths you are purporting to?

Where is this map from and who has drawn it?I doubt it was Kolokotronis himself,he was completely illiterate and could hardly sign with his name,let alone to draw geographical maps

As for what William Martin Leake described:


Researches in Greece, by William Martin Leake

It seems odd that he equates speaking greek with shopkeepers or artisans i.e. Socio-Labor labels. Another oddity (besides his 19th century narrow minded world view) is how peasants could speak up to three languages in Southern Macedonia. This should make you and your 1 friend with 10 accounts here think twice about what Leake really meant.
As for Abbot;


The Past In Question, By Keith Brown

I wonder how much of these labels you truly understand for this period?

Again I don't see how is related to the current topic all what you have posted above about Leake,Abbott and Keith Beown,and the languages that were spoken in Macedonia of 19th century.

How about you amuse us with what your 2 giddy friends posted about Boiannes and his supposed speech with Alexander being called a Hellene Go ahead and post the material here.

What's the problem with that specific quote?No,I won't post it because Boiannes was not an intellectual either,though I am not aware what was the level of his education regardless of the fact that most Byzantine high ranking millitary commanders and statesmen were highly educated men.

[Agamoi Thytai]

You didn't claimed this earlier! To the contrary, you stated:



How can a scholar influence other Greek scholars(as you say) to believe that the Macedonians were not Greeks if he himself is uncertain about the matter?

It seems that the one who's uncertain is you. Maybe you need to clear your thoughts. To help you i will give you a hint.

As I said in one of my previous post,I didn't have read so far what exactly Korais wrote about ancient Macedonians,I only had somewhere read he didn't consider them as Greeks.Now that I see some of his writings,it's quite clear he was not sure,since he states "they were PERHAPS Hellenes".What else do you need to read.And yes,if a scholar is considered as the most prominent of his time by all his contemporary compatriots,he can indeed influence them,it's not so strange.

Only after the German Droysen offered his theories to your historians did they accepted to include the Macedonians into the Greek nation.
And what happened? The Greek state and scholars, the ones who quite recently omitted the Ancient Macedonians from the Greek nation now went on a mission to 'prove' how Hellenic they in fact were.

Well,I've shown you Greek scholars who considered ancient Macedonians as Greeks long before Droysen's time

Well lets for the 'sake of the argument' assume that you didn't took this sentence out of context. In this sentence Korais:

1. Speaks about the successors of Alexander, not about the Ancient Macedonians nor about Alexander nor about his predecessors! Only about his successors who certainly can't be equalized with the Ancient Macedonians themselves.
2. Tells us that the Hellenes were subjugated to the Macedonians.
Do you know what subjugated means?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjugate

Look how are you manipulating what Korais wrote in order to suit your claim!If we accept your view that Korais didn't mean the Macedonians with the phrase "Alexander's succesors were perhaps Greeks themsleves",he doesn't say "the Hellenes were subjugated to the Macedonians" either,he just says "the Hellenes were subjugated to Alexander's succesors"!So,Orphei,first you convert "Alexander's succesors" to non-Macedonians when it doesn't suit you and then again you turn them to Macedonians when it suits you!Anyway,Alexander's succesors who shared between them his empire were certainly all Macedonians,except one,Eumenes of Cardia.Quintus Curtius Rufus' relevant pasage is very enlightening on this issue:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/quintcurt205.gif

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/quintcurt206.gif

PS: You didn't answered my question! What have these 18th century scholars(predecessors of Korais) which you threw around wrote about the Ancient Macedonians apart from the one liners you are quoting and which is nothing more then propaganda for the ignorant. Weren't the Ancient Macedonians such an important part of your nation? Weren't they the ones who spread Hellenic culture all around the world? Isn't it shameful that one liners is everything that the Greek intelligentsia(including the ones that allegedly considered Macedonians as Greeks) wrote about them before Droysen come up in the 1850es and told them '' hey guys, these Macedonians are very important for your new identity, you need to include them in your history'' ?

Be patient,Orphej,there is much more stuff to be posted besides the however I am very busy.

[Agamoi Thytai]

What does prove this? That Greeks are the offspring of Macedonians!!!!

If you had some small portion of brain in your empty skull,you would have understand the allusion of the author:Greece is now subjugated to some Asian nation,but some centuries ago the opposite happened,Greeks had subjugated an Asian empire.Can you guess to whom was Pyrros referring?

Do not be ridiculous since nobody gives credit to a XIX century 'Greek' scholar, who was heavily influenced by Romanticism.

Oh,yes,I forgot1Everyhting that demolishes your propaganda is attributed to "romanticism","Classicism","Philhellenism" and and a dozen of other -isms!Very cute!

I just underlined some words from your quote, to show how inaccurate is D. Pyrrhos. According to his wishful thinking, the ancestors of Turks were defeated by Alexander's army. There is no historical record that Alexander met ever Turks (or their ancestors) during his Asiatic expedition. Therefore, D. Pyrrhos constructed the past as to suit to his agenda of reviving the non-existent Hellas

Oh,I see there are at least some remants of brain in your damaged skull!!So i apologize for what I said before!Yes,you finally grasped it,Pyrros made a pararellism between modern Turkey and Greece on the one hand and ancient Persians and Macedonians on the other.He only made an errr in the first part,modern Turks are not the same with ancient Persians.

It seem obvious that you picked up this sentence out of its content. It says nothing whether Macedonians were Greeks or not. It just emphasize the very fact that πρώτοι κάτοικοι of Macedonia were the same with those of Greece, probably a reference to Pelasgi. I have no issue to accept that the first inhabitants of Macedonia, Epirus, Thrace and Illyria to some extent, were quite similar to those of Greece. But we are speaking for the period between VIII-IV B.C...

It reads in page 148 "η θρησκεία των Μακεδόνων το παλιό ήταν η αυτή με τα λοιπά έθνη της Ελλάδος" (the religion of the Macedonians was in ancient time the same with the rest of the nations of Greece)

Both Daniel Philippidis and Grigorios Konstantas are proved to be ignorant since it is widely known that Demosthenes was not the only person to call Macedonians as barbarians. Even the famous Thrasymachus labeled unceasingly Macedonian king as 'barbarian':

Shall we become slaves to Archelaus, Greeks as we are, to a barbarian?”
Ἀρχελάῳ δουλεύσομεν , Ἕλληνες ὄντες βαρβάρῳ

Stick to the topic please!Neither Thrasymachus nor Demodthenes are 19th or 18th century scholars,otherwise I also can show you dozens of ancient quotes that describe Macedonians as Greeks

In general, I can say that all your cited accounts from XIX century, have no weight not only for being out-dated, but because they were written from some romantic writers who knew nothing about history.

Then I can also claim the same for those Greek 19th century intellectuals that didn't consider ancient Macedonians as Greeks,they were ignorants and outdated too!Alright?

If you want to maintain some credibility, go find some reliable source if inhabitants of Greece knew anything about Alexander the Great prior 1830. Greeks discovered Alexander for the first time after they launched campaigns like "I Makedonia einai elliniki" or something like that.

I have shown the passages of William Martin Leake,from 1835.I have shown the passage of George Abbott who wrote in 1903 that "the chap book of Alexander the Great has been a very popular reading among the lower classes of the Greek world for centuries.I have shown the passage of Peter Green,definitely not a pro-Greek author who says that "Alexander the Great is the only figure from antiquity that has syrvived in the folk consciousness of medieval and modern Greece" Isn't that enough???

[Risto the Great]

Risto there are Greeks from Macedonia that disagree with that statement. I have a cousin from Kozani area that is native to the region.

Kozhani? Ask your cousin what it means in Greek.
Notwithstanding this, Kozhani is close to the southern end of Macedonia. I would expect some other languages to have influence the further south one goes.

There are Greeks that disagree with all statements unless it is said they are descended from mythical Greek gods who still watch over them no matter how Christian they purport to be.

[Agamoi Thytai]

The only one who's making senseless comments is you. Once dumb, always dumb! All of your cited accounts from XIX-th century does not change the prevalent view that modern 'Greeks' had no tradition about Alexander before the emergence of Megali Idea. If some romantic writers did mention Alexander the Great and his Macedonians, this cannot be considered either as tradition or knowledge about Macedonians:

Hey,calm down,Emver Hodza,I didn't call you dumb,although I wouldn't hesitate to call you if I considered you as such,I have no respect for people who lick where they used once to spit.

D. Pyrrhos neither considered Macedonians as Greeks nor Alexander as Greek. He just stated that Asiatics were defeated by Macedonian Alexander the Great. I am sorry!!!

Once a liar anf fraud,always a liar and fraud!(Now I am calling you the names you deserve,I am a very justful person).Didn't you notice,you liar,in my post about Pyrros pages 155,160 and 164 of his book?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/dionpyr155.jpg

"As far as the sciences,the arts and Philosophy were thriving in Hellas,the bright Hellenes shined with their virtues among all other nations.AS FAR AS THERE WERE LIVING THOSE GREAT MINDS OF THE WORLD,ALEXANDER THE GREAT,Pyrrhus,Leonidas,Themistocles,Pericles,
Miltiades,Aristotle,divine Socrates,THE HELLENES WERE TRIUMPHANT AGAINST ALL OTHER NATIONS OF THE WORLD.But since the sciences and the Muses are absent from Hellas,all lights of philosophy and virtue have been totally extinguished,all good things in Greece have been immediately vanished.Unhappy Hellas!What you were once,what you are now and how you’ll end up!"

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/dionpyr160.jpg

"Όλοι οι Έλληνες,μάλιστα οι Μακεδόνες και οι Θεσσαλοί είναι φιλόξενοι"
(All Hellenes,especially the Macedonians and the Thessalians are hospitable).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/zratak/dionpyr164.jpg

"Οι από Ελλήνων βασιλεύσαντες ενδόξως...ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ,ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΣ ΦΙΛΑΔΕΛΦΟΣ,ΕΥΕΡΓΕΤΗΣ,ΦΙΛΟΠΑΤΩΡ,ΕΠΙΦΑΝΗΣ...."
(Those of the Hellenes that gloriously reigned...ALEXANDER,PTOLEMY,PHILADELPHOS,EUERGETES ,PHILOPATOR,EPIPHANES....all Macedonians)

You Serres cretin! Your evident mental disability does not allow to understand the essence of posts. Of course, the Klephtes have nothing to do in regard with thread...I quoted the famous leader of them, Nikotsaras to point out his totally ignorance on Achilles. This was the gigantic gap between population of Greece and ardent Phil-hellenes who imagined them as descendants of ancient Hellenes. As for the nationality of Klephtes, we can discuss in another thread.

No,you liar,you apparently threw that passage of Koumas in order to present your fraudulent claim that he considered all Klephtes as Albanians (as if that has something to do with the topic) which was certainly not the case!Now that I revealed the truth and exposed your fraudulent attempt,you bark like the chicken thiev who is caught red- handed.

So what?? You even to dare to ask so...The fact that Greeks had no clue about ancient Greeks speaks volume on drastic changes occurred in Greece. This does not leave much room for claiming unbroken lineal continuation from antiquity till modern times, does it?

All educated Greeks of all times knew the most prominent figures of ancient Greece.As regards common people that were usually illiterate,yes,most of them didn't know so much,but this happens in every society,illiterate people are not renown for their historical knowledge...let alone in lands that were 4 centuries under Ottoman rule,without schools and formal education.Tell me,Albanovski,how many Albanians in 19th century had any clue about king Pyrros,whom you disgrace using his image as your avatar

Is that all you can say? Oh sorry, I forget that you are professional to pick up selectively some vague quotes and to omit from the rest of book, which clearly refute your fantasy. You would not be pleased if we examine a little further on your quoted books...

This has nothing to do with the topic!Furthermore,it clearly shows Peter Green is definitely not a pro-Greek person,thus his testimony that Alexander has survived in the folk consciousness of medieval and modern Greece becomes more valuable and reliable,in case you haven't grasped it!Thanks for strengthening my argument!

3. Karamanlis himself made extensive public funds available for further excavation...therefore he took a continuing personal interest on that project. I'd not be surprised if Karamanlis himself come here to break our balls by claiming Alexander as 'the representative of all Greeks'

This Karamanlis was the uncle of Karamanlis who was recently PM of Greece,and he died in 1998.

Give it a break! You think that only Greeks transmitted legends of Alexander to all people. By whom central Asiatic leaders were taught about their legends with Alexander? By Greeks hahhahaahah Your lame arguments does not hold any water

I didn't say only Greeks spread legends of Alexander,however it was impossible for these Turks in that specific region to learn such legends by any other people,because there weren't any other people around.Do you know where Olympiatha and Stavros are?

Calm down you big fat!

I am not fat,bozo!

I did not accuse Greek homosexuals...I've just make known something that is evident.
It has been posted a long time ago in MacedonianTruth a photo of a Greek gay covered with a Greek flag to promote the Hellenism of Macedonia By the way, what are the possibilities of introducing gay societies in your hometown, Serres since the wave of homosexualism is covering all Greece?!

Yeah,watch out because this homosexualism wave has started to cover Albania too.Are you the owner of these sites?

http://www.gay-datanta.com/gy/gay/albania

http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/albaniagay/home.htm

http://www.gayegypt.com/algayper.html

[El Bre]

Voltron Said

Risto there are Greeks from Macedonia that disagree with that statement. I have a cousin from Kozani area that is native to the region

Nakratzas Page 129

In the nineteenth century the Kozani region was inhabited exclusively by Turks from Konya, who returned to Turkey. The sole exception was the town of Kozani itself, where the Greek speaking inhabitants were almost all Hellenized Vlachs.

[makedonche]

[QUOTE=Agamoi Thytai;107654]

Makedonche,I really don't have any clue what is the ironic part you are talking about.

Agamoi
Yes you are correct, for once we agree completely - you don't have a clue!

[Soldier of Macedon]

it clearly shows Peter Green is definitely not a pro-Greek person,thus his testimony that Alexander has survived in the folk consciousness of medieval and modern Greece becomes more valuable and reliable

You've made that remark a number of times in your recent posts. Why does he need to be pro-Greek or pro-Macedonian or pro-Albanian? How about being pro-logic and pro-common sense? I don't agree with every single one of his opinions, but there is no doubt that Peter Green is one of the best historians where it concerns Alexander. Anybody that claims otherwise is merely being 'pro-Greek' themselves.

[El Bre]

Today you do have a choice Mango. It is not up to the government to teach you your native language. At the end of the day, it us up to your parents, community, and yourself.

In a modern sense, for example in countries which are net takers of immigrants I would agree with you, but, how easy do you think it is to resurrect a native language after three generations of suppression?

[Agamoi Thytai]

You've made that remark a number of times in your recent posts. Why does he need to be pro-Greek or pro-Macedonian or pro-Albanian? How about being pro-logic and pro-common sense? I don't agree with every single one of his opinions, but there is no doubt that Peter Green is one of the best historians where it concerns Alexander. Anybody that claims otherwise is merely being 'pro-Greek' themselves.

SoM,when I label as pro-Greek or anti-Greek a historian I certainly don't mean he is an enemy or friend of the Greek people or has something against Greece e.t.c..It's just an abbreviation for distinguishing those historians that consider ancient Macedonians as Greeks and those that don't.I've explained why I consider it so significant that an author who doesn't consider ancient Macedonians as Greeks writes something in favour of my arguments.If it was writen by Hammond or Steven Miller let's say (or any other historian who might be considered as pro-Greek,according to the criterion I mentioned) you would probably question his impartiality and consider him as an unreliable source.Yes,I also don't agree with all of Peter Green's opinions,though I accept he is a good historian.However there are many other good historians that have different opinions than Green in regards to ancient Macedonian ethnicity.