From the renowned Greek historian and linguist, Gus Portokalos, "Give me a word, any word, and I show you that the root of that word is Greek."
Historians on the Ancient Macedonians
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Dragan - I am a troll for having a historical debate? Just because I am presenting a viewpoint that is contrary to your own, it does not mean that I'm trolling.
Tomeche - Why have you deliberately cut me off there? You've taken my post completely out of contest. To think that I'm the one being labelled a troll. I'm not sure what was worse, this or the other guy saying that not a single "eminent" historian says that the Macedonians spoke Greek.
I've said that it was meaningless because we know that Koine Greek was referred to as Macedonian. Just because something is labelled as "Macedonian" it does not mean that it was not a form of the Greek language. Koine was certainly Greek, so too was the "Macedonian" that Alexander shouted in.
No I do not think there is even a remote possibility that the Ancient Macedonians were not Greek. I was just making a point.
You ask accepted by who exactly? Well let's take a look. Here's some quotes about Macedonia from Ancient Historians:
Strabo -
“There remain of Europe, first, Macedonia and the parts of Thrace that are contiguous to it and extend as far as Byzantium; secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece
"The Ætolians however, in conjunction with the Acarnanians, during a long period withstood the Macedonians and the other Greeks “
Quintus Curtius Rufus -
"they declared that the sun represented the Greeks and the moon the Persians, and that an eclipse of the moon predicted disaster and slaughter for those nations.”
The Branchidae, who were unarmed, were butchered throughout the city, and neither community of language nor the olive-branches and entreaties of the suppliants could curb the savagery. Finally the Macedonians dug down to the foundations of the city walls in order to demolish them and leave not a single trace of the city.
(Branchidae were Greek speakers)
"He did not want her tainting the character and civilized temperament of the Greeks with this example of barbarian lawlessness“
Plutarch:
“Alexander lived many hundred years ago. He was king of Macedon, one of the states of Greece. His life was spent in war. He first conquered the other Grecian states
Isocrates:
“It is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race.”
Writing to Phillip
Polybius:
"That King Philip and the Macedonians and the rest of the Hellenes"
Phillip V speaking: "For on many occasions when I and the other Greeks sent embassies to you begging you to remove from your statutes the law empowering you to get booty from booty, you replied that you would rather remove Aetolia from Aetolia than that law.
Diodorus:
“Such was the end of Philip … He had ruled 24 years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire among the Hellenes, while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy.”
“and the Athenians were not ready to concede the leading position among the Greeks to Macedon.”
Livy:
"General Paulus of Rome surrounded by the ten Commissioners took his official seat surrounded by the whole crowds of Macedonians Paulus announced in Latin the decisions of the Senate, as well as his own, made by the advice of his council. This announcement was translated into Greek and repeated by Gnaeus Octavius the Praetor-for he too was present"
Caesar:
"An edict had been published in Pompey’s name that all the younger men in the province [Macedonia], both Greeks and Roman citizens, should assemble to take an oath"
Pliny:
"Such, at all events, were the opinions generally entertained in the reign of Alexander the Great, at a time when Greece was at the height of her glory, and the most powerful country in the world"
Plenty more where that came from too.
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Originally posted by sydney View PostFrom the renowned Greek historian and linguist, Gus Portokalos, "Give me a word, any word, and I show you that the root of that word is Greek."
No? That's because Alexander was a Greek speaker and left Greek speaking kingdoms behind. That's why the New-Testament was written in Greek.
Any of you want to attempt this quiz?
1. A Non-Greek people identifying themselves as Greeks.
2. A Non-Greek people considered by others as Greeks.
3. A Non-Greek people having Greek Names.
4. A Non-Greek people speaking Greek language.
5. A Non-Greek people sharing the same religion as Greeks
6. A Non-Greek people having the same heroes as Greeks
7. A Non-Greek people having the same myths as Greeks
8. A Non-Greek people spreading everywhere Greek Language and Culture,
9. A Non-Greek people building Greek cities,
10. A Non-Greek people participating in Pan-Hellenic Games,
11. A Non-Greek people participating in Amphictionies.
12. A Non-Greek peope using the same architecture as Greeks
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Macedonians have been going about this the wrong way.
Lets for a second say Ancient Macedonians spoke ancient "Greek" or some form of it, what does this prove? What does that have to do with the modern day nation of Greece.
France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, and even Romania share a common language. The difference between the first four languages is negligible, obviously all coming from Latin. would anyone argue that the Portuguese are the same as Italians, or the French? All of Eastern Europe speaks some form of Slavic, but are Russians and Ukrainians anything like Serbs, Bulgars and Macedonians? If Spaniards and Italians try hard enough they can understand each other. What are we to infer from that other than that their languages come from a common root.
So if ancient Macedonians and Greeks spoke a similar or even the same language this proves nothing. Spartans, Athenians, and Macedonians, were all just that, the idea of Greekness is a relatively new concept, certainly in that era it would have been a totally foreign concept.
To say ancient Macedonians were "Greek" frankly has no value or meaning. It is just an attempt to mix modern day politics and nationalism with a time that wouldn't have understood any of it.
In my opinion there is one defining point in ancient history that tells the whole story about the identity of the ancient Macedonians. The "Greeks" sided with the Romans while the Macedonians went with Carthage. When push came to shove the other city states had no problem banding together against Macedonia. Even Sparta eventually went the way of the other city state but Macedonia was always treated as an outcast, regardless of what language they spoke or what you think they were ethnically. When outsiders threatened the Balkans peninsula Macedonia was always on the opposite side of the rest of them, that means more than any identity you want to impose 2500 years later.
The Balkans peninsula is small, genetically everyone from that time period was probably the same or very close to it. So all that is left is that the people who eventually became "Greeks" never wanted Macedonians to be a part of that club up until very recently. So as far as I'm concerned this whole argument ends right there.
One day Historians will overcome the heavy Greek slant on history and this will be more clear, until that you plate smashers mojte dzenem da fatite.
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Originally posted by Leo255 View PostAre there any English words that come from your language? Surely there should be at least some biblical words seeing as Christ was born at the time of Alexander's successor kingdoms?
No? That's because Alexander was a Greek speaker and left Greek speaking kingdoms behind. That's why the New-Testament was written in Greek.
Originally posted by Leo the LiarAny of you want to attempt this quiz?
Ummm, Greece is full of them right now. Albanians, Macedonians, Turks .... heaps of them.
2. A Non-Greek people considered by others as Greeks.
Sure. Anyone who was Orthodox once upon a time. This is so easy.
3. A Non-Greek people having Greek Names.
Yep, me. But I changed it back to my Macedonian surname. Oh, there is also proof of Thracians with the men having Greek sounding names but wives leaving their uniquely Thracian names intact. It's crazy isn't it! A bit like someone called Klitos calling himself Chris or Panagioti calling himself Peter nowadays. OMG, what have they become! Kill them all! How dare they!
4. A Non-Greek people speaking Greek language.
Macedonians, Thracians, Romans ... the shifty Albanian down the road. Even some fancy scholars from Cambridge.
5. A Non-Greek people sharing the same religion as Greeks
Well, talk to Putin about that. Mind you, Greek Orthodoxy is schismatic, but I will let you hate yourself for that.
6. A Non-Greek people having the same heroes as Greeks
You got me here. My hero is definitely not that sprinter from those Olympics in Greece a few year back. But a few people seem to like a few of those ancient Hellenes to this day.
7. A Non-Greek people having the same myths as Greeks
Aren't you doubling up here? Refer point 5
8. A Non-Greek people spreading everywhere Greek Language and Culture,
Depends what you mean by Hellenistic and whether you have seen anything about already established trade routes and languages already spoken.
9. A Non-Greek people building Greek cities,
All of northern Greece. Take a look at the noses on the quasi Arabs in Ptolemaida.
10. A Non-Greek people participating in Pan-Hellenic Games,
Wow. Are you referring to one person or a race here?
11. A Non-Greek people participating in Amphictionies.
I have never played Pictionary
12. A Non-Greek peope using the same architecture as Greeks[/QUOTE]I've seen people copy their neighbour's architecture often. Though some Greek houses look uniquely shit.
Anyway, I suspect you will be deleted soon. You didn't put your dissertation here. Have a great Greek day you miserable racist and uninformed idiot.Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com
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Originally posted by Leo255 View PostTomeche - Why have you deliberately cut me off there?
Originally posted by Leo255 View PostYou've taken my post completely out of contest.
Originally posted by Leo255 View PostTo think that I'm the one being labelled a troll.
Originally posted by Leo255 View PostI'm not sure what was worse, this or the other guy saying that not a single "eminent" historian says that the Macedonians spoke Greek.
He also gave you a quote from Prof. Cartledge, who was the A. G. Leventis Professor of Greek Culture at the University of Cambridge, which directly refutes your claim.
The fact that you actually struggle with your deliberation on what is worse highlights the gravity of your comprehension deficit.
Originally posted by Leo255 View PostI've said that it was meaningless because we know that Koine Greek was referred to as Macedonian.
Just because something is labelled as "Macedonian" it does not mean that it was not a form of the Greek language. Koine was certainly Greek, so too was the "Macedonian" that Alexander shouted in.
Originally posted by Leo255 View PostNo I do not think there is even a remote possibility that the Ancient Macedonians were not Greek. I was just making a point.
Don’t worry though, I’m sure you will still not comprehend how you completely and utterly jammed your foot down your throat with this one even after it being explained to you (twice).
Originally posted by Leo255 View PostYou ask accepted by who exactly? Well let's take a look. Here's some quotes about Macedonia from Ancient Historians:
SoM: This guy is just another juvenile Greek Drone. I highly doubt he has written any dissertation on Alexander or that the transcript he posted previously is even his own. Make sure the door hits his arse on the way out.Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 02-13-2017, 01:53 AM.“There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio
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Originally posted by Leo255 View PostStrabo -
“There remain of Europe, first, Macedonia and the parts of Thrace that are contiguous to it and extend as far as Byzantium; secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece
Strabo:
1. The tribes extending beyond the Ambracian Gulf to the eastward, and contiguous with the Peloponnesus, are Greek.
2. The tribes from the Strymon to the Pontic passes and Haemus are all Thracian, except on the coast which is inhabited by Greeks.
3. On the right of the entrance (of the Ambracian Gulf) dwell the Arcananians, a Greek tribe. On the left is Nicopolis and the Kassopaeans, an Epirote tribe.
4. The Peneus divides Lower and Maritime Macedonia from Thessaly and Magnesia, and Haliacmon Upper Macedonia.
5. But the Peneus bounds Macedonia towards the north and Thessaly towards the south.
As you can see, Strabo places Macedonia's southern boundary at the river Peneus. But Strabo was not perfect, and apparent contradictions and geographic blunders have prompted Eugene Borza to question his credibility. This is what Borza has to say with regards to Strabo: "The fragments of Strabo's seventh book are quite uneven in value, and to cite Strabo for anything Macedonian is risky. For example what are we to make of an author (or his source) who puts the western boundaries of Macedonia at the coast of the Adriatic (freg.10), places its southern boundary at the Via Egnatia (freg.10), and has the mouth of the Haliacmon separating Dion from Pydna and Methone (fregs.20 and 22)?" (Borza 1990: 293).
Most of the ancient geographers (including Strabo himself) unanimously placed the northern border of Greece at the Peneus River in the Vale Tempe, south of Mount Olympus. "Beyond the river Peneus is the nation of the Macedonians", writes the ancient geographer Skylax in his work Periplous. Besides Strabo and Skylax, other ancient geographers that place Greece's northern boundary at the Peneus river include Dionysius, Diionisius of Calliphon. And a couple more: "I therefore draw limits of Hellas at the country of the Magnesiians, i.e., to the Vale of Tempe" (Dicaearchus). "Above Tempe towards Olympus is the region of the Macedonians" (Scymnus).
At this point, I should mention Sir J.C. Ardagh's "Memorandum on the Ancient Boundaries of Greece" which was received at the British Foreign Office before the Conference at Constantinople 24th February, 1881. The information which Major Ardagh presented in his memorandum (quoting sources from antiquity) basically reaffirms all of the above that, Macedonia was never part of Greece during ancient times. Here is some of what the memo has to say:
"As the claims of the Greeks to an extension of territories are in some degree based upon the limits of the ancient Greece (note: Greece's claim on Macedonia was the weakest of the three vested Balkan states on the argument of population alone), I conceived that an examination of the early Greek geographers would throw some light upon them, and I have been able to procure, and annex extracts from them in Greek translations. Strabo, Scylax, Dichaerchus, Scymnus, and Dionysius all concur in making Greece commence at the Ambracian Gulf, and terminate at the river Peneus..."
I'll touch on the ancient Macedonian language a bit now. But before I do, I just want to put it out there that, unlike our esteemed Greek friend from England, I can't claim to have studied Ancient History at university level. However, I did do alright in Modern & Ancient History in my Higher School Certificate. In fact, truth be told, I even got a "Merit of Outstanding Achievement" in Ancient History, which I'm still pretty chuffed about. Thankfully, all the hard work has been done for me by other eminent historians who have studied Ancient History at university level (just like our own Leo) and I can call up information from them without doubting their judgement too much. Authors and Professors of Ancient History such as A.B. Bosworth, Ernst Badian, Eugene Borza, Peter Green and others who have given their opinions on the ethnicity and language of the Ancient Macedonians.
Unearthing Greek inscriptions on ancient Macedonian artifacts such as coins, the Pella curse tablet, etc, proves that ancient Macedonians were Greeks as much as the usage of the French language by the Russians and German nobility of the late eighteen century proves they were in fact French. Thracian silver coins and vessels from the fifth century B.C. bear Greek inscriptions, and yet, the Greek archaeologists have never claimed this people as Greek. The Macedonians, just like the Thracians, Illyrians and others were, what historians call, a silent people. This doesn't mean they were mutes and couldn't communicate with each other. It simply means they didn't have a native script of their own. Eugene Borza correctly concludes: "The lesson is clear: the use of the Greek language as a form of written expression does not by itself identify the ethnicity of a culture." (In the Shadow of Olympus - The Emergence of Macedon, p.94.) In the same book, Borza also states that "...the main evidence for Macedonian existing as a separate language comes from a handful of late sources describing events in the train of Alexander the Great where the Macedonian language is specifically mentioned" (p.92). Here is my Top 5 list where the Macedonian language is specifically mentioned, and Plutarch's "He shouted in Macedonian" isn't even my number 1.
5. A passage from Pausanius (Paus. IV, 29) describes a Macedonian attack on Messene in 214-213 B.C.. The people of Messene thought it was the attack by the Spartans, but from their "weapons and voice" understood them to be Macedonian.
4. In Plutarch's Life of Anthony we find the Macedonian dialect specifically mentioned. (The word "dialect" is also applied to Egyptian, Hebrew, Syrian, Medes and other languages).
3. The episode with Eumenes, a Greek who was in command of Macedonian soldiers. Eumenes is said to have been in need of a Macedonian translator when wanting to relay a message to an opposing army of Macedonians.
2. Putarch's famous episode where he has Alexander the Great "shouting in Macedonian" to his bodyguard.
1. And, my favourite of all, Quintus Curtius Rufus' Trial of Philotas. If you don't know it (doubtful), then I encourage you to read through Rufus' whole description of this event. Pay particular attention to the following themes: i) Alexander asking Philotas whether he is going to address the Macedonians in their native language. 2.) Philotas giving his reasons for Macedonians having to use the Greek (Koine) language, i.e. "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using (Koine Greek), your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you" and; "That native language of ours (Macedonian) has long been rendered obsolete through our dealings with other nations, and conquerors (Macedonians) and conquered (Asian barbarians) must learn a foreign tongue (Koine Greek)."
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Astute analysis Karposh.
There is a great deal of disinformation stemming from Greek (and even Western) academia.
You can even highlight Herodotus' writings, in which, very early in Balkan history, Macedonia and Macedonians are a land and a people very separate from Hellas and Hellenic denizens. Eugene Borza has noted this, and the reading is quite clear.Last edited by Philosopher; 02-14-2017, 08:13 PM.
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Although this clown is no longer present, I will address some of his points anyway.
Originally posted by Leo255 View PostI would say that the Romans and Ottomans were imperial rulers and not colonisers.
No I did not as it was not on the reading list recommended by my lecturer. I read what was suggested to me, my aim with the module was to get a good grade....
The issue of Macedonian ethnicity was obviously not an essay question but was relevant when it came to studying certain actions by Alexander E.G The desire to emulate Achilles
It was also important when analysing as to why Arrian and Plutarch's accounts of Alexander are rather more hyperbolic than Curtius'. As Greeks under Roman rule, they would want to glorify his achievements to show cultural superiority.
......and there is also the inscription in Asia Minor of "Alexander and the Greeks except the Spartans".
- All of the Macedonians' names are Greek. If only Phillip and Alexander had Greek names then I would consider that they spoke the language for administrative purposes. This is not the case and all the Macedonian soldiers referred to have Greek names. Why would the illiterate and most likely peasant Macedonian populace who had no day to day interactions with the Greeks give their children Greek names unless it was their indigenous language?
There is no reference to translators being needed when the Macedonians attended the Athenian court. We have references to them being needed when the Thracians and Illyrians attended.
- Greek plays were performed in Macedonia. These would be pointless unless the people spoke Greek.
There is very clear evidence that the Trojans did not speak Greek.
The Pella Curse Tablet is the most important of these as it demonstrates that Macedonian was a peculiar dialect of Greek - Hence why it may have been considered a barbarian tongue by the Athenians.We are told that the Macedonians pronounced P as B. Why would we not have been told that they spoke a different language altogether? Instead we just have a comment about their pronunciation of Greek.
The Macedonians conquered all the way to India yet we are expected to believe that this great and powerful civilisation did not produce a single written document in its own language?
Macedonia is a Greek word.
All of the locations in Ancient Macedonia had Greek names.
The Macedonians were angered by Alexander's adoption of Persian customs.......They would not have such a complex if they themselves had merely copied their culture from the Greeks.
Livy speaks of the Aetolians, Acarnanians and Macedonians as "Men of the same language"
Livy speaks of a Roman proclamation being translated from Latin to Greek for the Macedonians to understand.
Why was the period following Alexander called the "Hellenistic Period"?
If we look at a map of Ancient Macedonia, we see that around 75% of it is located in Greece while the rest in Republic of Macedonia.
Why would the people of Skopje, which was not even located in the Ancient Kingdom have a better claim to be ancestors of the Macedonians then the Greeks who today live in Pella?
An English guy in my class used your capital Skopje as an example. He stated that the Republic of Macedonia had no claim to the Ancient Macedonians yet had spent millions on statues of a man brilliant of war in order to inspire patriotism.In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View PostNone of us are in a position to know all of the Macedonian names from antiquity. Of those that were recorded, most appear to be etymologically Greek. However, the earliest sources were in Greek, so some names may have been given a Greek form and meaning due to superficial similarities or some may have been Greek translations of indigenous names.
Are they etymologically Greek (in the sense of a hidden unclear root) or just Greek? And how does one know the difference, if he doesn't speak Macedonian, uh... I mean Greek? This could be a Greek lie. [reference to Borza, no he doesn't say anything about the names]
Are the earliest sources Greek indeed? What about the later ones? Do Macedonian inscriptions count as Greek sources?
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Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post"Most"? Is it most as 50,1%? 90%? 99%? How many names are we talking about? 30? 200? 500? More?
Are they etymologically Greek (in the sense of a hidden unclear root) or just Greek?
And how does one know the difference, if he doesn't speak Macedonian, uh... I mean Greek?
Are the earliest sources Greek indeed? What about the later ones?
Do Macedonian inscriptions count as Greek sources?In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
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At pages 235-249 there's a full list of names from inscriptions. This is ONLY for Upper Macedonia.
Purpose: The purpose of this thread will be to explore the epigraphs found in the region of Macedonia. These will include inscriptions written in any and all of the languages used in the region of Macedonia from various time periods. For the purpose of this thread, we define Macedonia as the region outlined by black dashes in
Edit: A full list of names per city and also in English language can be found as follows.
Google "a contribution to the prosopography of ancient Macedonia - Helios" and download the pdf file in the second link.
===Last edited by Amphipolis; 02-17-2017, 03:24 PM.
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