Deconstruction of the term Bulgar/B'lgar/Bugar/Voulgar!

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  • Daskalot
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 4345

    Deconstruction of the term Bulgar/B'lgar/Bugar/Voulgar!

    There is a great misconception regarding the above term, its use and meaning during history. When did it get national, ethnic, etc?
    Macedonian Truth Organisation
  • makedonin
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 1668

    #2
    Some collection on it:

    Гърците наричали българина "хондрокефалос", което означава дебелоглав, в смисъл твърдоглав, тъп, прост. На Запад през средновековието еретиците наричали "бугри" (фр. bougres), което произлиза от bulgare (българин) и означавало нещо лошо. Според френската енциклопедия "Ларус" думата означава оскърбителен термин, ругатня. В речника на Бл. Мавров тя означава тип, нехранимайко, проклетник. Академик Йордан Иванов в книгата си "Богомилски книги и легенди" пише, че във френския език са останали и до ден днешен думи и изрази, идещи от името "българин" (bougre) с негативно значение

    Translation:

    The Greeks called the Bulgarians "Hondrokephalos", which designates ticken headed person, in the sense of stubborn, dumb. In the West during Medieval Times the Heretics were called "Bugri" (Franch bougres), which derives from bulgare (Bulgarian) and designates something bad. Accoding to the Ecyclopedia "Larus" the word designates an derogative term. In the dictionary of Bl. Mavrov the word designates a Type, vagabont, cursed one. Academmian Jordan Ivanov in his book "Bogomils Books and Legends" writes, that the French language preserved till the modern day the words, that are derived from the term "Bulgarian" (bougre) with negative meaning.




    Taken from:
    BOZHIDAR DINKOV
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Babylon French-English
    bougre (m) n. fellow; damn; bugger

    Babylon English-English

    bugger
    n. fellow, chap; person who commits sodomy
    v. sodomize; bother




    The etymology of this word is amusing, it returns to… Bulgarian!
    To the Middle Ages (fine Xe S.), the Bulgarian ones went guilty to the eyes of Rome of the heresy bogomile (they did not believe where the pope said to them to believe). Have showed them to be sodomites, which charged the Latin term bulgarus with a sexual connotation.
    The francized term became bogre then guy (= heretic, discharged, homosexual - much of significance for only one term!), bougrery being male homosexuality.
    By extension one invented the bougress, designating the lesbian.
    The scholars of the rebirth them replaced the bougrery term by a more elegant name because resulting from the Greek: pederasty.

    Nowadays the sexual connotation of the term was largely erased, a guy is almost the equivalent of a strapping man.

    Babel Forum

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    From Wikipedia:

    "Vulgarism" derives from Latin vulgus, the "common folk", and has carried into English its original connotations linking it with the low and coarse motivations that were supposed to be natural to the commons, who were not moved by higher motives like fame for posterity and honor among peers — motives that were alleged to move the literate classes. Thus the concept of vulgarism carries cultural freight from the outset, and from some social and religious perspectives it does not genuinely exist, or — and perhaps this amounts to the same thing – ought not to exist.



    While people who were known as the "Common Folk" under Roman Rule and later the same Term was used as Mass designation into the East Roman Empire, came to be misunderstood with the new comer Tatar Mongol Tribes designation "Bulgarian".

    Latin vulgaris means common, ordinary, usual. This same word is only one character away from the Ethnic name of Proto Bulgarians Bolgari in Cyrilic Болгари (in Greek Βουλγαρoς pronounced VULGAROS which was mostly used to designate the Tatar Bulgarians, cause they were seen as low life creatures).



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Also interesting to consider is the Latin: burgus and burgarius > small fortification; soldier stationed at burgus; which left traces in the Old Germanic as burgarius precisely in Old High German, and burgõri* 7, burgeri*, Burgbewohner, Einwohner; nhd. Bürger, M., Bürger, Burgbewohner, Stadtbewohner.



    Middle English, from Latin vulgaris of the mob, vulgar, from volgus, vulgus mob, common people

    In the same context, there is also Musica Vulgaris in a sense of Folk Music!

    The Designation comes from the Latin vulgaris („belonging to the People, Commoner“) orVulgar Latin (in Latin, sermo vulgaris, "folk speech").

    In other words: Bulgaria is the land of the Vulgaren.
    Last edited by makedonin; 02-10-2009, 06:49 AM.
    To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

    Comment

    • Daskalot
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 4345

      #3
      Good findings, are there any historical sources, books or dictionaries, supporting the above?
      Macedonian Truth Organisation

      Comment

      • makedonin
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1668

        #4
        Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
        Good findings, are there any historical sources, books or dictionaries, supporting the above?
        Never looked for some !

        The above is on linguistic basis though the Hondrokephalos Vulgaris exceped...

        For the Hondrokephalos Vulgaris there are deffinitly historical sources, Misirkov included.

        But there are some instances of travelers who were finding Bulgarians in Bosnia and Serbia though. The Armenian traveler Lehaci wrote:

        Оттуда за пять дней мы достигли Босна-Сарая.* Это был большой город, построенный на высокой горе. Через него протекала широкая река, еще большая, чем остальные. Это был благоустроенный и торговый [город] и место купцов. Там сидел беглербек Румелии. Мы разыскали там четырех армянских купцов, которые, утешив нас, с любовью встретили и почтили у себя дома, за что да вознаградит их Господь! Там мы пробыли два дня. Люди той страны – здоровые богатыри, сильные и могучие, рослые и мускулистые; они совсем не знают турецкого языка, но только болгарский. Говорят, что в Румелии, кроме городов, есть 80 тысяч болгарских сел; по исповеданию они греки, а их архиепископ сидит в Атране. Почему же они всем округом приняли мусульманскую веру? Говорят, что как-то прибыли к ним хараджчи, и они из-за нищеты отреклись от веры, чтобы не платить харадж. Тогда хараджчи, собравшись, отправились в Высокую Порту (“Высокие Врата” или “Высокая Порта” (Баб и-Али), так называли Стамбул) и дали понять хондкару, что боснийцы приняли мусульманство не во имя бога, а из-за хараджа. Тогда царь повелел: «Пусть платят [все], хоть и стали мусульманами, кроме хаджи, которые ходили в Мекку». Увидели [62] они, что и веры лишились и харадж платят, стали ходить из-за хараджа в Мекку. Все они хаджи; среди них очень мало платящих харадж, таких называют румелийскими газиями. В Боснии повсюду есть также много болгарских монастырей. В пяти милях [от города] на высокой горе стоит большой известный и великолепный монастырь; нам сказали, что в эту епархию входит триста сел. Войдя внутрь, мы обошли его и благословили бога. Рядом с монастырем находился большой горячий источник, который приводил в движение 12 мельниц. В другом месте, около Хулупа, мы увидели построенные царями большие бассейны и каменные украшения, подобные источникам Бурсы. В Боснии все люди говорят по-болгарски и если клянутся, то, кроме имени Мехмета, ничего по-турецки не знают, поэтому говорят: «Такоми бога и вира Мехметская», то есть «Вот те бог и вера Мехметова», и т. д.

        With quick Google Translate:

        From there, five days we reached Bosnia-shed .* It was a great city built on a high mountain. Through its extensive river run, even more than the rest. It was comfortable and trade [city] and the place of merchants. There sat beglerbek Rumeli. We found there four Armenian merchants, who will comfort us with love and honor the meet at home, so that the reward of their Lord! There we stayed two days. The people of the country - Bogatyrs healthy, strong and mighty, tall and muscular, and they do not know the Turkish language, but the only Bulgarian. They say that in Rumeli, except the cities, there are 80 thousand Bulgarian villages, on the [*fathe i.e religion] practice of them Greeks, and their archbishop seated in Atrane. Why are they all the district took the Muslim faith? They say that once they arrived haradzhchi, and they are due to poverty denied the faith, not to pay HARAJ. Then haradzhchi met, went to the High Oporto ( "High Gate" or "High-port (and Bab-Ali), the so-called Istanbul) and made it clear hondkaru that Bosnians are not adopted Islam in the name of God, but because of the HARAJ. Then the king commanded: «Let the pay [all], it's become Muslims but Haji, who went to Mecca». See [62] they that have lost faith and HARAJ pay, have to walk because of HARAJ in Mecca. They all Haji, among them very few paying HARAJ such call rumeliyskimi gaziyami. In Bosnia, everywhere there are also many Bulgarian monasteries. At five miles [from the city] on a high mountain is a large well-known and magnificent monastery, we were told that in this diocese are three hundred villages. Once you log in, we walked around it, and blessed God. Near the monastery is a large hot spring, which resulted in the movement of 12 mills. Elsewhere, about Khulup, we saw the kings built large pools and stone ornaments, such as sources of Bursa. In Bosnia, all the people speak in Bulgarian, and if you swear, then, except for the name of Mehmet, nothing in Turkish do not know why say: «Tacoma god and Wira Mehmetskaya», ie «These are the god and faith Mehmetova», and so e.

        Translated with: http://translate.google.com/translate

        My edit [*....] cause исповеданию = religious practice
        To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

        Comment

        • Daskalot
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 4345

          #5
          Very good, what do our Greek friends have to say about Voulgaroi? Its Very similar to the Latin term Vulgar/Vulgus.
          Macedonian Truth Organisation

          Comment

          • Spartan
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 1037

            #6
            We have a field day with that chant everytime PAOK comes to G.Karaiskakis stadium, the home of the greatest team in the Balkans/southeastern Europe, the great Olympiakos.
            It goes something like this-

            BOU-BOU-BOULGARI

            HAHA, I love it, the poor bastards get so mad!!

            Comment

            • Daskalot
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 4345

              #7
              I have a feeling that our modern Bulgarian friends have taken their national name from the older term which meant christian slavic peasant, the East Romans used the term in this way, as did the Ottomans. We need to find sources backing this, lets go treasure hunting in our local library!
              Macedonian Truth Organisation

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13675

                #8
                In the Balkans, the term 'Bulgar' was originally a name of a Turkic tribe with Iranian admixtures among others. What we need to establish is wether or not the Latin term 'Vulgar' derives from the above or whether it was used earlier.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • makedonin
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1668

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  What we need to establish is wether or not the Latin term 'Vulgar' derives from the above or whether it was used earlier.
                  Hard if even imposible task.

                  How ever the term Vulgar predates the Bulgars of Asparuh, that is for sure.

                  It may be the faith is in play, when the two terms with totaly different meanings colide and get confused.
                  To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                  Comment

                  • Daskalot
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 4345

                    #10
                    Makedonin is correct when he says that the Latin term Vulgar predates the Tatar Bolgars/Volgars.
                    Macedonian Truth Organisation

                    Comment

                    • makedonin
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1668

                      #11
                      Here just for you Terriaky:


                      According to GHM, a report from the Reuters news agency has confirmed that a Greek court has slapped a temporary injunction on
                      sales of a dictionary in the latest round of a dispute over an allegedly insulting definition contained in the boo
                      k. On 26 May 1998,
                      court officials in Thessaloniki (in northern Greece) confirmed the decision, made in response to complaints by a local conservative
                      politician over one of the dictionary's definitions for "Bulgarians."'

                      The dictionary states that "Bulgarians'' is used in Greek slang as a pejorative term for supporters or players of sports teams in
                      Thessaloniki, which is near the Bulgarian border. Fans of soccer and basketball teams from Athens and the rest of the south often taunt
                      northern fans and players, especially from the PAOK team, with the term.
                      Greece: Violations of freedom of expression ....... klick here terry to see the source ;-)


                      Freedom of Speech in Greece :-)

                      End to dictionary furore

                      The government today praised the author of a Greek dictionary who agreed (= forced) to eliminate from the second edition an explanation of the word 'Bulgarians' which caused a furore when the reference work was recently published. In the first edition of the dictionary, under the entry 'Bulgarians', Professor George Babiniotis' second explanation was "the supporter or player of a (sports) team of Thessaloniki, mainly of PAOK". The entry notes that the term is used as an insult. Fans of Athenian soccer and basketball teams in particular often chant the word pejoratively to goad fans of Thessaloniki teams.




                      *(my edit)
                      Last edited by makedonin; 02-11-2009, 09:13 AM.
                      To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15660

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
                        I have a feeling that our modern Bulgarian friends have taken their national name from the older term which meant christian slavic peasant, the East Romans used the term in this way, as did the Ottomans. We need to find sources backing this, lets go treasure hunting in our local library!
                        I have the same feeling.
                        And I would also suggest it sounds somewhat familiar to another name like "Greek".
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • makedonin
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1668

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Daskalot
                          Are there anymore findings on the above topic?
                          How about some Honest Bulgarian testemony?

                          Read it here

                          Or Bulgarian Identity crisis

                          What is a Bulgar was a matter of definition of their intelegentsia:

                          Bulgarian elite had to invent, elaborate and underpin a myth of common ancestry and made this pedigree putative for the sense of ethnic identification
                          It appears though that the definition is still pending
                          To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

                          Comment

                          • Daskalot
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 4345

                            #14
                            Originally posted by makedonin View Post
                            How about some Honest Bulgarian testemony?

                            Read it here

                            Or Bulgarian Identity crisis

                            What is a Bulgar was a matter of definition of their intelegentsia:



                            It appears though that the definition is still pending
                            nice Makedonin, but are there any linguistic references for what Bugar could mean in our language??
                            Macedonian Truth Organisation

                            Comment

                            • TrueMacedonian
                              Banned
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3823

                              #15
                              I don't know if this helps but here goes.





                              So according to the text above;

                              1) Turk meant government official.
                              2) 'greek' meant merchants
                              3) Bulgar meant peasant.
                              4) Vlach meant shepard.

                              The balkans is a strange place. The only place where religion earns you a name like 'greek' or your social status earns you a name like 'bulgarian'.

                              Comment

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