European languages and Greek

[Gocka]

I have a question for the more knowledgeable about languages.

From what I can tell there are basically 4 base languages in Europe, Latin, Germanic, Slavic, and Greek. North west Europe is Germanic, South West is Latin, and East is Slavic.

The part that baffles me is why are there no other countries that use Greek as a base language? Now to be clear I'm talking about spoken language. Obviously the written languages, Greek Cyrillic, and Latin all derive from Greek, and that's what confuses me even more. The Greek written language is basically used in every European country, but the spoken language is as far as I know only used in Greece, and was only used in its current for for the last 200 years and then not until antiquity.

So the basic question is: If Greek culture was so prominent, and Macedonia spread Greek culture through the world via Alexander, then why is it that the spoken Greek is not used by anyone today as a basis for a spoken language? Even most of Greece's native population today didn't speak Greek.

To me it suggests that the written language predates the spoken, and historians mistakenly associate the two as both Greek. Where the written language was an already common universally popular language that Greeks as well as Macedonians and others already used. That would explain why their spoken language never caught on anywhere. The only evidence we have of "Greek" is written so we automatically assume that if they written in a certain language then the speak in a certain language. Yet if wee look at today, Latin is the written language for English and other Germanic languages, so by the same standard a 1000 years from now if we look back will we say that the Germans and the English speak Latin because they write in Latin, and even Latin is basically Greek. I just find it odd that the written language "spread" so easily and vastly but the spoken never did.

Thoughts?

[George S.]

Remember the koine language and how the greek language has been basterdised.What benefit is there from speaking greek?

[Amphipolis]

I have a question for the more knowledgeable about languages.

From what I can tell there are basically 4 base languages in Europe, Latin, Germanic, Slavic, and Greek. North west Europe is Germanic, South West is Latin, and East is Slavic.

The part that baffles me is why are there no other countries that use Greek as a base language? Now to be clear I'm talking about spoken language. Obviously the written languages, Greek Cyrillic, and Latin all derive from Greek, and that's what confuses me even more. The Greek written language is basically used in every European country, but the spoken language is as far as I know only used in Greece, and was only used in its current for for the last 200 years and then not until antiquity.

So the basic question is: If Greek culture was so prominent, and Macedonia spread Greek culture through the world via Alexander, then why is it that the spoken Greek is not used by anyone today as a basis for a spoken language? Even most of Greece's native population today didn't speak Greek.

To me it suggests that the written language predates the spoken, and historians mistakenly associate the two as both Greek. Where the written language was an already common universally popular language that Greeks as well as Macedonians and others already used. That would explain why their spoken language never caught on anywhere. The only evidence we have of "Greek" is written so we automatically assume that if they written in a certain language then the speak in a certain language. Yet if wee look at today, Latin is the written language for English and other Germanic languages, so by the same standard a 1000 years from now if we look back will we say that the Germans and the English speak Latin because they write in Latin, and even Latin is basically Greek. I just find it odd that the written language "spread" so easily and vastly but the spoken never did.

Thoughts?

You seem to confuse/mix:

(a) the Greek alphabet/script (yes, the Latin script was initially one of the four major Greek scripts)

(b) the Attic (classic) Greek language that was spread basically through education and science

(c) Koine (common) Greek language that was initially a spoken/vernacular language (not a written one)

(d) the other/various types of Greek dialect/vernacular that were living all this time and eventually survived through literature.

Some notes:

-Greek dialect (not written) was common until 20 years ago in South Italy (Magna Grecia) and had survived against official language.

-Greek language survived against Latin for a few centuries, it dominated and eventually became (again) official language in (Eastern) Roman Empire.

-The language of the Bible and the knowledge of Christ-era DOES give an idea on the dissemination of Greek language about 300-years post Alexander.

===

[Nikolaj]

In my personal opinion, it's because the language had never overridden the existing populations languages. Unless there was settlement e.g. Roman settlement around the region of modern day Romania (originally consisting of Thracian tribes or cities). Also, if you are a firm believer like me that 'Slavic' is native to the Balkans. A location where it was more Roman submission than settlement, it is very possible for the language to have continued to exist and further develop. They of course would have been exposed to latin and developed an understanding, but never actually implies they forget their own languages. Hence why 'Slavic' and Greek still even exists in the Balkans after being under Ottoman submission for such a lengthy period.

Also, Germans write German in latin script, as opposed to Thracians and Macedonians writing Greek in Greek script. So in the future, they would definitely not mistake Germans being of different ethnicity. I believe this is for multiple reasons, these two being the main reason to why they still went with writing Greek in Greek:

1) Phonetic value; making it incapable to write the Macedonian or Thracian tongue effectively using the Greek alphabet. Germans and even Turkish have altered certain characters to compensate for the same reason.
2) Well, Greek being the common tongue even before Alexander the Great, as I believe SoM has made it very clear in a thesis he made in the past.

Also, I don't believe Greek culture was so potent. A lot of it probably isn't even theres but due to advancement of art, architecture etc in other societies they would just assume it is because of Greeks.. due to... indirect anti-semitism.

[Amphipolis]

Also, Germans write German in latin script, as opposed to Thracians and Macedonians writing Greek in Greek script. So in the future, they would definitely not mistake Germans being of different ethnicity.

Thracians were barbarians and never wrote anything in Greek language. That's what I remember from Herodotus, maybe I'm missing something.

Inscriptions have been found (in small fragments) that have to be deciphered and I've heard they're (probably) not far from Greek language. But that's too difficult and early to say.

[Philosopher]

I have a question for the more knowledgeable about languages.

From what I can tell there are basically 4 base languages in Europe, Latin, Germanic, Slavic, and Greek. North west Europe is Germanic, South West is Latin, and East is Slavic.

The part that baffles me is why are there no other countries that use Greek as a base language? Now to be clear I'm talking about spoken language. Obviously the written languages, Greek Cyrillic, and Latin all derive from Greek, and that's what confuses me even more. The Greek written language is basically used in every European country, but the spoken language is as far as I know only used in Greece, and was only used in its current for for the last 200 years and then not until antiquity.

So the basic question is: If Greek culture was so prominent, and Macedonia spread Greek culture through the world via Alexander, then why is it that the spoken Greek is not used by anyone today as a basis for a spoken language? Even most of Greece's native population today didn't speak Greek.

To me it suggests that the written language predates the spoken, and historians mistakenly associate the two as both Greek. Where the written language was an already common universally popular language that Greeks as well as Macedonians and others already used. That would explain why their spoken language never caught on anywhere. The only evidence we have of "Greek" is written so we automatically assume that if they written in a certain language then the speak in a certain language. Yet if wee look at today, Latin is the written language for English and other Germanic languages, so by the same standard a 1000 years from now if we look back will we say that the Germans and the English speak Latin because they write in Latin, and even Latin is basically Greek. I just find it odd that the written language "spread" so easily and vastly but the spoken never did.

Thoughts?

I won't go into the technical aspects of your post, but you make a number of important observations. It is strange indeed how a language -- among the most influential in history -- was never adopted as an official language by non-Greeks.

We know the Romance, Germanic, and Slavic languages have been adopted by many different ethnic groups throughout history, but not so with Greek. Even Semitic is spoken by a number of different ethnic groups. The Berber languages are no different.

But Greek not so.

[Nikolaj]

Thracians were barbarians and never wrote anything in Greek language. That's what I remember from Herodotus, maybe I'm missing something.

Inscriptions have been found (in small fragments) that have to be deciphered and I've heard they're (probably) not far from Greek language. But that's too difficult and early to say.

The presence in Macedonia of inscriptions written in Greek is no more proof that the Macedonians were Greek than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels and coins proves that the Thracians were Greeks. - from E. Borza's book; so apparently there is enough evidence to convince E. Borza but here are some I just quickly found:

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/thrace/kardia/i.html

Herodotus also makes it clear that Macedonians were not part of the Greek world, why isn't that taken into consideration. However, even then I do not see what he has to do with this apart from strengthening our case that even barbarians use Greek; as there is Thracian inscribed Greek coinage even from his time that exists.

[George S.]

I don't believe that the thracians had anything similar as they were different to the greeks.

[Niko777]

At most the Greek language influenced other languages, but did not form the base language for other nations.

For example I found that in Macedonian there is a "-is" suffix for singular verbs and "-te" and "-me" suffix attached to verbs in plural form and I think this is exactly the same in Greek as well.

(How are you)

Macedonian: Kako ste ?
Greek: Pos eiste

Macedonia: Shto praish
Greek: ti kaneis

Macedonian: Shto prajte
Greek: Ti kanete

(We are drinking)
Macedonian: Pieme
Greek: Pinoume

(What are you writing)
Macedonian: Shto pishish
Greek: ti grafeis

[George S.]

It's a misnomer to think that the greek language influenced other languages.The greeks were good at colonising places and adopting anything and calling it their own.(Hellenising).
They even adopted the phonecian alphabet.Even their so called classical greek history is not theirs but an adopted one.

[Nikolaj]

At most the Greek language influenced other languages, but did not form the base language for other nations.

For example I found that in Macedonian there is a "-is" suffix for singular verbs and "-te" and "-me" suffix attached to verbs in plural form and I think this is exactly the same in Greek as well.

(How are you)

Macedonian: Kako ste ?
Greek: Pos eiste

Macedonia: Shto praish
Greek: ti kaneis

Macedonian: Shto prajte
Greek: Ti kanete

(We are drinking)
Macedonian: Pieme
Greek: Pinoume

(What are you writing)
Macedonian: Shto pishish
Greek: ti grafeis

Niko, I can't seem to get the same translation as you for the Greek variant. Did you use any particular site or just google translate?

[Niko777]

Niko, I can't seem to get the same translation as you for the Greek variant. Did you use any particular site or just google translate?

Yes I used google translate and wiktionary.

Don't bother translating from Macedonian, the Macedonian translations are always wrong.

I only know a couple phrases in Greek, maybe someone here who speaks the language can tell us more.

http://translate.google.com/?hl=en#en/el/we%20are%20drinking

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%CF%8E%CF%82_%CE%B5%CE%AF%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B5

[George S.]

You know there are on line dictionaries that translate more accurately.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Inscriptions have been found (in small fragments) that have to be deciphered and I've heard they're (probably) not far from Greek language.

If you're referring to Thracian, then you've been misinformed.

From what I can tell there are basically 4 base languages in Europe, Latin, Germanic, Slavic, and Greek. North west Europe is Germanic, South West is Latin, and East is Slavic.

In addition to the above, there are Celtic, Baltic (closely related to Slavic) and Albanian, all of which are considered as Indo-European language groups. Latin was part of Italic. There are also Basque, Uralic, Turkic and Semitic languages spoken by populations in Europe, and, depending on how far east you consider Europe's eastern boundary, there are some other languages too.

Obviously the written languages, Greek Cyrillic, and Latin all derive from Greek, and that's what confuses me even more.

The development was as follows: Egyptian hieroglyphics > Phoenician alphabet > Greek alphabet > Etruscan / Italic alphabet > Latin alphabet (Cyrillic is a combination of the Glagolitic and Greek alphabets). Since its inception it has undergone significant alterations, so no single group can claim it as an exclusively independent innovation. It has also been spread in its various forms by different sources, so no single group can lay claim to that either.

The part that baffles me is why are there no other countries that use Greek as a base language?

Well, there's also Cyprus. But nevertheless, it's an interesting question. In my opinion, there are a couple of reasons. It may have something to do with Greek not being relatively close to any other language group, such as Baltic with Slavic, or to a lesser degree, Italic with Celtic. This may be due to Greek originally arising as an amalgamation of an Indo-European language and some other, non-European, intrusive language (perhaps that is why the people of the Mycenaean era, whoever they were, wrote in Linear B, and after that era, those who came to be known as Hellenes and lived in the same region wrote in the Phoenician alphabet). In any case, its distinctiveness made it difficult for it to be adopted by nearby peoples as a primary spoken language (the opposite was the case with Latin, which was adopted by Celtic peoples in what is now France, Spain and Portugal). Among the peoples who came across it outside of Greece, it didn't transcend its use and influence beyond trade, administration and education with any degree of consistency (except in Cyprus), and it could be that such an objective was just never considered that important or rigorously implemented (until much later, when the Patriarchate and the modern Greek state began to forcibly impose it in the lands of the indigenous peoples it held sway over and/or occupied).

[George S.]

Inscriptions have been found (in small fragments) that have to be deciphered and I've heard they're (probably) not far from Greek language.""
The Thracian language is different to greek.So what makes you think its greek?