Macedonian Patriotic Organization

[Bill77]

Bill77 this is not about UMD, this is about MPO, and even though I haven't said anything in this thread for several pages, Phoenix thought it important enough to mention my name. Is that not a personal attack?

Can you quote for me where I said they should hide results? I said that they should poll the diaspora and DISPLAY the results.

This thread is about the MPO not about me.

I sincerely apoligise Buktop. My head is spining with all this UMD, MPO, MOC etc flying every where. I should be careful next time. But you did mention on another thread regarding UMD something similor to Hiding results. Well i take it that way. But to be fair, you did say they should avoid issuing opinion polls.



QUOTE: "I guess I would say they need to avoid any future controversy by issuing opinion polls to the members/non-members, and then publish the results"

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=34142&postcount=73

[Rogi]

Bill77,

I read that as saying that they should issue opinion polls and that they then should publish the results?

Perhaps better punctuation would have helped.

[Bill77]

Bill77,

I read that as saying that they should issue opinion polls and that they then should publish the results?

Perhaps better punctuation would have helped.

You are corect Rogi. Now that i have read it again and looked at it in the way you see it, Its another gong for me. I think i need to lie down and quit for a little while. Its a Baaaaadddddd day for me.

[Buktop]

Bill77,

I read that as saying that they should issue opinion polls and that they then should publish the results?

Perhaps better punctuation would have helped.

Yes that is correct Rogi. I sometimes have problems with comma's haha.

Bill77 looks like I owe you an apology as well

[Silver]

It's very disconcerting to say the least when you hear Macedonians saying that the MPO needs to change it's ways or that it should clarify what it stands for etc etc so that we can all move forward and do what's best for Macedonia. Well that's great but it ain't gonna happen, ever. The MPO is not a Macedonian organization it is a 'Bulgarian' organization designed to subvert and destroy the Macedonian cause since inception. To learn more about the MPO and 'Bulgarian' tactics against Macedonia one needs to first go back and find out everything there is to know about the Supreme Macedonian Committee, how they destroyed the Macedonian Liberation Movement, were responsible for and have to answer for the deaths of Gotse Delchev, Dame Gruev, Jani Sandanski and many others. A very good read for me was Duncan Perry's 'The Politics of Terror: The Macedonian Revolutionary Movements 1898 to 1903' Duke University Press. If I made a mistake in footnoting this book you can let me know since I don't actually own a copy. It was the first one in fact first anything, I read about the uprising at the turn of the century and is written by a non- Macedonian. An eye opener it was for me. No one should get confused as to why any Macedonian refers to himself as 'Bulgarian' from this book either as the author clearly states. They identify as 'Bulgarian' only in terms of their religion not ethnic.

Through organizations like the Supreme Committee and later the MPO a Bulgar or a Bulgaroman appears as a 'Patriotic' Macedonian and gains trust. During the Ilinden Uprising most Macedonians couldn't tell the difference between an MRO cheta or a Supremist Cheta. They thought of them as all the same. But the Supremist's along with the 'Greek's' secretly worked with the Turks and helped to destroy Macedonia's struggle for liberty and self determination from which it has not recovered to this day. So to finish off, their goals once they have secured trust and infiltrated they will proceed to destroy. Therefore, the MPO which has support in the 'Bulgarian' government is never to be trusted, period. Instead it needs to die and we need to create new community organizations which serve OUR interests and not 'Bulgaria's' to move on with.


The MPO has now become irrelevant as an organization in Macedonian communities everywhere especially since Macedonian Church's were built under the Ohrid Bishopric. It's a major blow to them that we no longer are forced to live with the Exarchate running our churches and our minds. The MPO has been shut out of Macedonian churches and communities because everyone knows what they are and who's interests they cater to. The MPO is looking for other ways in which it can infiltrate and will try and try but really it won't work. There's only a handful of them to carry the torch for their father's and grandfathers ignorance. They come across as totally arrogant know-it-alls and they have a lot of MPO money to cause trouble with from 80 or 90 years of raking it in from suckers. We're just too smart these days and that really frustrates a Bulgaroman.

*** I would like to post a letter exchange between M. Seraphinoff and the president of the MPO at the time which I read in Risto Stefov's Digest but I can't locate right now. If anyone else knows what I'm talking about and has the letter please post it. Otherwise I'lll try to find it and post it up because it says it all so to speak.

[indigen]

*** I would like to post a letter exchange between M. Seraphinoff and the president of the MPO at the time which I read in Risto Stefov's Digest but I can't locate right now. If anyone else knows what I'm talking about and has the letter please post it. Otherwise I'lll try to find it and post it up because it says it all so to speak.

The Macedonian Digest
Edition 35 – November 2008

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/stefov/digest_26.html

Google search brought the above result and I can see several letters there. Have a look yourself and post the one you wish to present to MTO readers.

Cheers

[El Bre]

Here is the exchange in it's entirety;

An Open Letter to the Macedonian Patriotic Organization

I was disappointed to learn that the leadership of the MPO had supported efforts by someone in the organization to form an MPO chapter in Skopje. It appears to me to be a meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign foreign state. On the other hand, I certainly hope that those who injured this man will be found and charged for their unlawful violence against him, and that the Macedonian legal system will act in an impartial manner in the upholding of that nation’s laws, and with a respect for international standards on human rights.

What I do not understand is how the MPO came to endorse such a move to establish an MPO chapter in Skopje. This is because I believe that the MPO membership is composed chiefly of Americans of Macedonian ancestry with only the best intentions toward the old country. If my understanding is wrong, I, of course, hope that someone will correct me.

My understanding is that the MPO is an organization of mainly second and third generation Americans. Their parents or grandparents arrived in America at a time when their homeland was in flames, and they themselves were traumatized refugees, who had experienced some of the worst horrors of war in the first decades of the 20th century. In the absence of a Macedonian state and a clearly defined identity at that time, they self-organized themselves as best they could to defend the interests of their suffering occupied homeland. It was an easy choice at that time, I suppose, to ally themselves with Bulgarians in America. This did not pose any real problems for the MPO until after World War Two and the creation of an autonomous Macedonian Republic within Yugoslavia, which was accompanied by a break with the Eastern bloc, including Bulgaria.

My best guess is that the leadership of the MPO remained in the hands of a small group of elderly members who retained their traditional association with Bulgaria and Bulgarians. This would have been facilitated by membership in Bulgarian Orthodox Churches and by a Bulgarian government that obligingly supplied them with all manner of books and magazines. These would be translated into English for easy consumption and would support the Bulgarian position that their Macedonian homeland was lost Bulgarian territory with an historically Bulgarian ethnic and cultural makeup.

However, I am also of the opinion that the vast majority of the MPO membership in 2008 is composed of people with a firmly established American identity. The sons and daughters and grandchildren of the immigrant generation of the MPO almost exclusively speak English. They attend American schools and universities and become assimilated Americans who marry people of nearly every ethnic background in America. They serve their country in the American military. They contribute to the prosperity of America and their families have prospered in return.

Unfortunately, they share little common ground with most of the Macedonian immigrants who have come here in recent decades. They cannot speak to most of them due to a language barrier, and the most recent generation of immigrants have self-organized themselves into separate, mostly non-English-speaking communities around their Macedonian Orthodox Churches here. This has resulted in isolation of the two communities and much mutual mistrust and misunderstanding.

MPO members and their families generally have retained little of their Macedonian heritage. Some may still be able to greet you in Macedonian, and they still lovingly prepare some of their baba’s recipes in the kitchen. Their knowledge of Macedonian history and culture is often minimal. They usually know more about the US Civil War than they do about the Macedonian Ilinden Uprising. Most likely what they have learned has come from a Bulgarian state that has been more than willing to provide them with reading material.

To their credit though, I believe that most MPO members are typical Americans, which means that they are independent-minded people with a diverse range of religious and political beliefs. Witness today the fact that a half Black man with the African and Arabic name Barak Hussein Obama, and a woman, Hillary Clinton, are major contenders for the American presidency. You’ve got to respect a people with the capacity to look beyond labels.

I believe that the MPO’s membership is mainly composed of people who share an American open-minded fairness. I also believe that they have little or no attachment to the politics of the Balkan Peninsula. Many of them have never been there, and probably never will go there. As fortunate and generous Americans, they do like to contribute to charitable causes there, contributing medical equipment, school materials and the like, to their ancestral homeland.

I suspect that many MPO members today look at an elderly Balkan idealogue in their midst, such as the MPO leader George Lebamoff, as a strange relic of the past, but one to be respected and honored as an elder. What they don’t sufficiently understand, however, is the mischief that his understanding of Macedonian history, past and present, can cause in the complex and volatile Balkans. They are simply too far removed and too uninformed to appreciate the essential fact of Macedonia today. Few people in the world have suffered as Macedonians have. They were literally torn apart by those who wished to have their land. As a result, over time a consensus has emerged among them, and they have declared: “We are not Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians or Slavs, we are Macedonians.”

In the light of that essential fact, it is risky indeed for an American-based organization with a history of identity with a Bulgarian ethnic consciousness rather than a Macedonian ethnic cultural consciousness to consider opening a chapter in the Republic of Macedonia. What would MPO members think of an American Patriotic Organization based in Mexico, with a history of support for return of the US Southwest to Mexico, supporting plans to open a branch chapter in Fort Wayne, Indiana? I suspect that it would not be viewed very favorably. It might even incite some of the less law-abiding local citizens to acts of violence that I would hope American authorities would prosecute.

I appeal to the open-minded fairness that I believe is the American heritage of most MPO members. Reconsider your organization’s support for the formation of an MPO chapter in the Republic of Macedonia. Given the pro-Bulgarian orientation of your present leadership, it can easily be seen as a meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign foreign nation.

I also urge you to continue to educate yourselves concerning the nature and history of Macedonia. There are any number of historical publications to choose from today. Some of these can be obtained from the Republic of Macedonia in English translation. There are other excellent recent works by Macedonian immigrant writers published by Pollitecon in Australia or promoted by the Macedonian Canadian Historical Society in North America. These include the recent historical work: This Land We Do Not Give, a history of Macedonian resistance to foreign occupation, co-authored by Chris Stefou and myself. I ask that your members read such works to assure that your organization makes as fully informed decisions as possible concerning MPO involvement in the Balkans in the future.

Respectfully,

Dr. Michael Seraphinoff

Ph.D. Slavic Studies

Seattle, Washington, USA, January, 8, 2008

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 Thomas Lebamoff wrote:



Dear Dr. Seraphinoff,

Thank you for your letter dated January 8th 2008 and I hope the new year is finding you well in Washington.
I am disappointed that a historian and especially one of Slavic studies has such a false understanding of Macedonian history and her people. First let me address the misrepresentations you have made about the MPO and its leadership. In no way is the MPO meddling in internal affairs of a foreign government nor are we soliciting for members outside of North America, but with that said, we welcome anyone in the world to join our great organization.
The MPO was founded in 1922 based on the truth of our Bulgarian heritage and ethnicity and as well as, an understanding that we are all Macedonian, just as I can say I am an American or Canadian based on my national and geographic consciousness. The MPO was founded on the principle of a free, independent and united Macedonian state representing all ethnicities of people (i.e., Bulgarian, Vlah, Turk, Greek, Serb, Romani) The founding Fathers of the MPO were from the Kostur region of Aegean Macedonia and even before they set foot on American soil they considered themselves as Bulgarians, one of the early members was my Grandfather and his Father considered himself a Bulgarian as my Grandfather would tell the story, all before there was a Bulgarian State. Even after 500 years of Ottoman enslavement and atrocities, as well as, the Greek religious and educational pressures, they still spoke the old Slavonic or old Bulgarian language and lived the village life as Bulgarian Slavs not ethnic Macedonians. It is unfortunate that many of the recent scholars have taken such a Serbo-communist view that was started well before Tito and it is unfortunate again that Tito changed the language and then called it Macedonian. Many of the Bulgarian-Macedonians that immigrated to America had family still in the old country with the family members under a communist regime, but they still spoke the truth. All of the early MPO members had family members that were killed by the Turks, Greeks or Serbs and they were not afraid to speak the truth.
I am 42 years old and I am not elderly as you refer but I am old enough to know the truth and I am fortunate that I live in America where I can without fear, speak the truth. Maybe this makes me a relic in the eyes of the new Macedonian community, but they misunderstand their history. The MPO members like myself have retained all of their Macedonian heritage, our weddings are full of old music, village dancing, Baba and Dedo's cooking and conversation in the old language as my Father still speaks. Please know your facts, I was in Skopia, two years ago and the people my age do not even want to dance this way at weddings, we Dr. Seraphinoff, the MPO have maintained an untarnished heritage, pristine from Tito and early communist beliefs. My Great Grandmother and Great Grandfather were shot and killed during the Ilinden uprising - they were Bulgarians from Macedonia.
My Father is not a strange relic and he has done more than you or any individual in North America for the Republic of Macedonia. Ask, Ambassador Hill, ask President George Bush and ask his Father, you should be open to read more than the Serbo-Communist history since you are a professor. My Father has spent many months over the last two decades in Vardar, Pirin and Aegean Macedonia, being chased by Greek police, and harassed by the Serb regime. The MPO will always dream about a free and independent state in the Balkans for all of Macedonia not just one third of it. We are the strongest American Macedonian organization in North America and probably the world for that matter, we have well over a million dollars in assets and a passionate belief in the truth. We will spend every penny and go to the grave believing in our goal as our grandfathers did.
Our organization is not pro-Bulgarian nor do we want a greater Bulgaria, we want the truth to be known to the world and you as a professor should educate yourself by reading books like the Eagle and the Stork or The tragic Peninsula, The Balkan Trail, and Turkish Life in Town and Country, Confessions of a Macedonian Bandit. There are many more in our MPO library in Fort Wayne IN.
Dr. Seraphinoff, I respect your belief that you are a descendant of Alexander the Great and that you speak the Macedonian language and that you are ethnically Macedonian, so be who you want to be and do not tell me what I am nor our organization, read your history and not just what serves your beliefs, so open yourself up to all views. It really is shameful that you are in a position of authority and it is such a disrespect to our patriots that died for a free and independent Macedonia.

Kind Regards,
Tom



On January 14, 2008 Michael Seraphinoff wrote:

Thank you, Tom, for setting me straight. I really did need to hear the depth of your feeling for a Bulgarian identity. I naively assumed that it was relatively unimportant to you and others in the MPO. I obviously have never understood why your organization didn't rally around a separate Macedonian language and ethnic cultural identity many years ago. My grandfather was also a participant in the Ilinden Uprising, and he used to point to a scar on his neck where a Turkish bullet had grazed him. He also identified with the Bulgarians for most of his life, but I've always assumed it was because there was no alternative available to him. There is a story told in our family of how, shortly before his death, he attended a celebration of the liberation of Vardar Macedonia and the establishment of the republic and came home wearing a Tito pin. So you see, I have a different family history that leads me to different conclusions than those your family and friends have reached.
I genuinely like the Bulgarians I have come to know over the years during academic study stays in Bulgaria. I have read most of the books you mention in addition to others given to me by Bulgarian friends. I am sorry for any insult you or others may have felt at reading my letter. I obviously don't understand the historical forces that have led you to identify with a Bulgarian identity while my family embraced the Macedonian identity of the republic. I apologize for being presumptuous.
Macedonia has been a source of so much hatred for so many people. It is no wonder that most people there want to embrace some European identity as part of the EU and escape the curse of conflicting identities and all of the hatred that seems to go with them. It is always preferable to spend our time enjoying the beautiful songs, the delicious foods, the engaging stories, the rich history of the Balkans, and to celebrate the courage of our people, who resisted slavery, the theft of their land, the denial of their language and their religion. The big question in my mind is how to do this without getting caught up in the ugly politics of opposing identities.
There is a special place in hell, I am sure, for those who use an identity to foster hatred of others who are not of that identity. For instance, to hate Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, Serbs etc. because they are not Macedonians. That, of course, goes for those who insist that Macedonians have no right to their identity, as well. As an American I enjoy life in a society where the politics of racial or ethnic identity is less important all the time. No matter what your interpretation of Balkan history, it is easy to conclude that far too many people have suffered as a result of intolerance. I will continue to try and understand our differences and strive for mutual respect.


Michael

[Risto the Great]

Thanks El Bre,
Seraphinoff whipped him and I bet Tom did not even understand the nuance of it.

[El Bre]

I noticed that too Risto, amidst all of the apologizing going on in the reply, Michael was subtly positioning his rebuttal.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Are there any Macedonians in the MPO that think as Macedonians? And if so, where are they? Why haven't they taken the lead and help the organisation free itself from its former 'Bulgar' stigma?

What exactly do these people think when they say they are 'Bulgars'? Are they implying a commonality with the people of Bulgaria, are they implying ancestry from the Turkic Khans like Asparuh? Do these people even know what a 'Bulgar' is?

After all this time, and in this new age of information, it is simply not good enough for the MPO to still be identified with such garbage.

[Risto the Great]

Please take the time to read this:

http://www.globusmagazin.com.mk/default-mk.asp?ItemID=F87484DBCC63B74384CA07783CB1A583&arc=1

Подготовки за пописот во македонската дијаспора во Америка

Душан Синадиноски

Млада, енергична и амбициозна, организацијата Македонска обединета дијаспора (ОМД) од Соединетите Американски Држави (САД), во своето интернет издание „ОМД Глас“ од 14 декември 2009 година, соопшти дека заедно со неколку македонски организацци од дијаспората основале коалиција за попис на Македонците во Америка. Главната намера на оваа пописна коалиција, како што се наведува, е да ги заинтересираат македонските иселеници во Америка да земат што поголемо учество на наредниот попис на населението од 2010 година. Во соопштението, понатаму, се објаснува дека доколку поголем број од Македонците ги исполнат гласачките ливчина, толку повеќе бенефиции и привилегии би и следувале на македонската дијаспора. На прв поглед, оваа одлука се чини како една многу убава замисла, но не е сигурно дека македонската дијаспора ќе и' ја даде својата поддршка на оваа коалиција оти тука не е се' в ред.

Прво, и покрај добрата намера, за македонската дијаспора е неприфатливо стапувањето на ОМД во оваа коалиција, затоа што составот на коалицијата во никој случај не може да се оцени како легитимно и репрезентативно тело на македонската дијаспора. Проблемот е во тоа што во составот на оваа пописна „македонска” коалиција се вклучени и неколку организации кои се со сомнителен македонски идентитет и кои отворено го негираат македонскиот идентитет. Како пример, покрај ОМД, во оваа коалиција се вклучени и Македонската патриотска организација (МПО), Асоцијација на македонско-американско пријателство (МАФА), Македонско-американската културна организација од Нова Англија, Македонскиот културен совет од Њујорк и други кои се од локален карактер и со потполна анонимност за пошироката македонска дијаспора. Тоа што е веднаш забележливо и е необјасниво е што во овој состав нема ниту еден претставник од многубројните македонски колонии низ Америка како што се тоа Детроит, Чикаго, Индијана, Охајо, Бафало, Њу Џерси и многу други места. Затоа е многу сомнително зошто ОМД се согласи да коалицира во оваа пописна коалиција како самоизбрани претставници на македонската дијаспора без претходно директно да им се обратат до овии македонски колонии.

КОАЛИЦИЈА Претпоставката на коалицијата оти Македонците во Америка би уживале поголеми бенефиции и привилегии ако се докаже дека нивниот број е поголем отколку што се мисли, е од спекулативен карактер и не е одраз на реалната социјална слика во Америка. Но и да има некоја забележлива корист, ОМД не смееше да стапи во коалиција со МПО и на тој начин да и дозволи таа да ја претставува македонската дијаспора. ОМД точно знае дека оваа докажана антимакедонска организација и понатаму трдоглаво продолжува да го негира македонскиот етнички идентитет и покрај тоа што Република Македонија стана независна држава. Од самото формирање на МПО, па се' до денес, македонската дијаспора во Америка и во Канада беше непрекинато и систематски уништувана од оваа организација. МПО како тогаш, така и сега ги нарекува Македонците како бугаро-македонци и го негира постоењето на етнички Македонци. За МПО придавката „македонски” е географска одреденица и не означува посебен етнички народ. Затоа воопшто не е сфатливо од кои причини ОМД се вклучи во асоцијација со МПО.

Можно е да се поверува дека ОМД била навлечена во оваа коалиција. Може да се претпостави, исто така, дека ОМД влезе во коалиција со МПО без критички да ги пресмета потенцијалните штетни последици за македонската дијаспора, за американско-канадската епархија и за МПЦ. Но, на ваквите шпекулации, ОМД може да одговори дека оваа коалиција нема етничка и национална позадина и сите напади врз ОМД се без основа и со тенденциозна позадина. Според нивниот оглас, единствената задача на оваа коалиција е да се убедат што поголем број Македонци да ги исполнат пописните ливчиња, а не да се потврдува македонскиот легитимитет на МПО. ОМД, исто така, може да се брани и со тоа што ако македонските власти редовно соработуваат со оваа организација. Тогаш, зошто тоа и се оневозможува на ОМД!? Но, како реалистички да звучат, овие оправдувања само го замачкуваат вистинскиот проблем - затоа што самата асоцијација со МПО, како и објавената, но не и потврдената поддршка од американско-канадската епархија, се лоши потези кои можат да предизвикат бурни реакции кај македонската дијаспора и да ја стават МПЦ во многу неповолна положба. Зашто, таа веќе еднаш оформена е непремостлива национална диференцијација помеѓу МПО и ОМД повторно да се става под знак на прашање!

ЕПАРХИЈА Второ, можеби и најголемата морална шлаканица за македонската дијаспора во Америка и во Канада е тоа што во соопштението се напоменува и тоа дека оваа коалиција ја има подршката и од Американско-канадската епархија. Во соопштението не се кажува дали неговото високо правосвештенство митрополит Методи самиот лично и го дал благословот за работа на оваа коалиција или, пак, некое друго овластено лице од кабинетот, сепак оваа најавена подршка ја турка оваа епархија, а со тоа директно ја вовлекува и Македонската православна црква, кон една матна политичка дејност. Како е воопшто можно ОМД да дозволи и да ја доведе МПЦ во една ваква многу делекатна и сериозна позиција? Во овој случај не треба да се има голем разум за да се дојде до заклучок дека ако пописната коалиција е прифатлива за МПЦ, тогаш и МПО како член на таа коалиција е прифатлива за МПЦ. Која било друга интерпретација за да се избегне оваа импликација не ќе може да се оправда. А ова е голем и тежок удар за МПЦ. Можеби некои од „македонските” организации во оваа матна коалиција токму тоа и го посакувале.

Американско-канадската епархија, која е неотуѓив дел од Македонска православна црква, е духовниот лидер на Македонците на овие простори. Од самото формирање оваа епархија успеа да реализира многу значајни македонски дела во Америка и во Канада. Таа ги собра расфрлените Македонци и создаде една силна, кохезивна и чиста македонска дијаспора. Македонците од оваа епархија со голем труд, божја љубов и со непоколеблива верба во својата национална свест подигнаа прекрасни македонски божји храмови. Епархијата секоја година ги собира Македонците од Америка и од Канада на еден голем традиционален црквен-народен собир каде се собираат десетици илјади Македонци и каде македонскиот јазик, културата и традицијата непобитно го докажуваат македонскиот идентитет. Преку овие монументални успеси Американско-канадската епархија ги задолжи идните македонски поколенија од дијаспората да продолжат одлучно да ги бранат и да ги промовираат интересите на Македонците и со тоа уште повеќе да придонесат за доброто на македонската кауза. Затоа, влегувањето во коалиција со МПО, за што е барана поддршка и од Американско-канадската епархиаја, ОМД остава простор за оправдани и неоправдани шпекулации.

Mногу е малку веродостојно оти поглаварот на Американско-канадската епархија, митрополитот Методи, бил детално и суштински запознат со соствот и со политичката позадина на оваа коалиција. Затоа, ако таа подршка вистински е одобрена од неговото високоправосвештеништво, тогаш таа подрдшка единствено може да се протолкува како добронамерна и со неодреден национален модалитет. Сепак, неговото високоправосвештеништво г. Методи треба под итно да ја повлече епархиската поддршка на оваа коалиција и да ги предупреди епархиските општини низ Америка и Канада да не соработуваат со ОМД се' додека не дојде до промена на составот. Со тоа, Американско-канадската епархија и МПЦ ќе бидат поштедени од политички и од национални манипулации. На ОМД и останува да размили дали ќе продолжи со учество во оваа коалиција и со колку јасна слика ќе настави да ги претставува Македонците во Америка.

СОРАБОТКА Трето, повеќето таканаречени „македонски” организации во оваа коалиција немаат легитимно право да ја застапуваат македонскта дијаспора без предходно да бидат овластени за тоа. Ако ОМД беше толку силно заинтересирана за правата на Македонците во Америка и Канада тогаш тоа ќе беше многу поприфатливо ако директно им се обратеше до црквено -школските епарихии и да ја побараше нивната соработка. Но, во еден ваков состав, ОМД им ги турка пред врата на македонската дијаспората сомнителенте „македонски” организации.

Нема сомневање дека Обидинетата македонска дијаспора си го знае своето вистинско место во македонската дијаспора и затоа оваа докажана македонска организација требаше да знае и да внимава со кого стапува во коалиција. Ако ОМД е со намера да дојде до точни податоци за Македонците во Америка, тогаш тоа најдобро ќе го стореше ако директно им се обратеше на црковните епархии во Америка. Во овој случај, не само што ОМД пак ќе биде принудена да бара соработка од црковните општини, туку на овој начин ем директно им го принесува тројанскиот коњ пред црковните порти, ем неоправдано ги загрозува сопствените односи со македонската дијаспора.

ОМД стапи на сцена за да ја игра критичната улога во македонската дијаспора ширум светот. Таа е динамична и креативна организација која настапува со еден модерен систем на работа. За кратко време од нејзиното постоење ОМД досега постигна големи успеси во многу области каде што постарата генерација не успаеа да се пробие. Лобирањето во Вашингтон, промоцијата на македонската култура, организирањето на младите Македонци од дијаспората и низа други важни активноски се само еден мал дел од нивните секојдневни активности. Ако вака продолжи сигурно е дека ОМД ќе се устоличи како една од водечките македонски организации во дијаспората. Затоа, оваа организација заслужува да се поддржува, а македонската диаспора од неа очекува грндиозни дела.

Наспроти ОМД, МПО е застарена организација и без перспектива за иднината, затоа што македонската дијаспора и' ја симна бугарската маска. Долго очекуваната апокалипса на македонската нација не им се оствари и целата нива моќ сега им е насочена кон ребугаризацијата на Македонците како во татковината така и во дијаспората. Затоа не е случајно што МПО и'се додворува на ОМД, бидејќи тоа за нив е тројанскиот коњ. Според тоа, без разлика колкава голема да е добивката, тоа не го оправдува стапувањето на ОМД во коалиција со МПО. Со сигурност може да се тврди дека ОМД не ја предвиде негативната страна на ова коалицирање, а овој акт и нанесува голема навреда и штета на македонската дијаспора, американско-канадската епархија, а со тоа и на Македонската православна црква. n

Rough Google translation:

Preparations for the census in the Macedonian diaspora in America

Dusan Sinadinoski

Young, energetic and ambitious, the organization United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD) from the United States (U.S.) in its Internet edition "UMD Voice" from December 14, 2009, said that along with several organizacci Macedonian diaspora created by the coalition for a census of Macedonians in America. The main purpose of this coalition Census, as stated, is to interest the Macedonian emigrants in America to take the greater part of the next census of 2010. The statement further explains that if a large number of Macedonians meet livchina voter, the more benefits and privileges would be followed and the Macedonian diaspora. At first glance, this decision seems like a very nice idea, but it is certain that the Macedonian diaspora will 'give its support to the coalition that there is not anything alright.

First, despite the good intent of the Macedonian diaspora is unacceptable entry of UMD in this coalition, because the composition of the coalition in no way be considered a legitimate and representative body of the Macedonian diaspora. The problem is that the composition of the Census "Macedonian" coalition includes several organizations that are suspicious Macedonian identity and who openly deny the Macedonian identity. As an example, despite the UMD, this coalition includes the Macedonian Patriotic Organization (MPO), Association of Macedonian-American Friendship (MAFA), Macedonian American Cultural Organization of New England, the Macedonian Cultural Council of New York and others that are of local character and with complete anonymity for the wider Macedonian Diaspora. What is immediately noticeable and it is inexplicable that this band is not a single representative of the many Macedonian colonies across America as the Detroit, Chicago, Indiana, Ohio, Buffalo, New Jersey and many other places. Therefore it is very suspicious why UMD agreed to a coalition in the coalition as the Census samoizbrani representatives of Macedonian diaspora without directly addressed to ovii Macedonian colonies.

KOALICIJA assumption of the coalition that Macedonians in America would have enjoyed more benefits and privileges if they prove that their number is larger than thought, is the speculative nature and does not reflect the actual social picture in America. But to have any noticeable benefit, UMD should not enter into coalition with the MPO and thus allow it to represent the Macedonian diaspora. UMD just know that this proven anti-Macedonian organization continues trdoglavo continues to deny the Macedonian ethnic identity, although Macedonia became an independent state. Since the formation of the MPO, and until today, the Macedonian Diaspora in America and Canada was continuously and systematically destroyed by this organization. MPO as then and now calls the Macedonians as Bulgarians, Macedonians and denies the existence of ethnic Macedonians. MPO for the adjective "Macedonian" is a geographical odredenica and does not imply a particular ethnic nation. Why is not the reason sfatlivo UMD joined the association with MPO.

It is possible to believe that UMD was navlechena in this coalition. It can be assumed also that the UMD into coalition with the MPO without critical to calculate the potential harmful consequences for the Macedonian diaspora, the American-Canadian Diocese, and the MOC. But such speculation, UMD can answer that no coalition of ethnic and national background, and all attacks on UMD are without basis and with deliberate background. According to their announcement, the only task of this coalition is to convince as many Macedonians to meet the census papers, not to verify the legitimacy of the Macedonian MPO. UMD also can defend and that if the Macedonian authorities regularly collaborate with this organization. Then why it is impossible to UMD? But how realistic sound to these excuses just zamachkuvaat real problem - because the association with MPO, and released, but not potvrdenata support of American-Canadian Diocese, are bad moves which can sparked a strong reaction from the Macedonian diaspora and to put in many MOC disadvantage. For once it is formed impassable national differentiation between MPO and the UMD again be put under a question mark!

EPARHIJA Secondly, perhaps the greatest moral slap in the Macedonian diaspora in America and Canada is that the statement napomenuva and that this coalition has the support of the American-Canadian Diocese. The statement did not say whether his high pravosveshtenstvo metropolitan Methods himself personally and gave the blessing for the work of this coalition, or any other person authorized by the cabinet, however, the announced support backing this diocese, and thus directly jumps and Macedonian Orthodox Church to a vague political activity. How is it possible to allow the UMD and bring in such a MOC delekatna very serious position? In this case should not have a reason to come to the conclusion that if the census is a coalition acceptable to the MOC, then MPO as a member of this coalition is acceptable to the MOC. Any other interpretation to avoid this implication can not be justified. And this is big and heavy blow to the MOC. Maybe some of the "Macedonian" organizations in this coalition very vague and wanted it.

American-Canadian Diocese, which is an integral part of the Macedonian Orthodox Church is the spiritual leader of the Macedonians in the region. Since the formation of the diocese failed to realize many important Macedonian works in America and Canada. She gathered rasfrlenite Macedonians and create a strong, cohesive and clean Macedonian Diaspora. Macedonians in this diocese with great effort, God's love and unwavering faith in their national consciousness raised Macedonian beautiful temples of God. Diocese each year gathers the Macedonians from America and Canada of a large traditional church-National Rally where he collected tens of thousands of Macedonians and where the Macedonian language, culture and tradition nepobitno prove the Macedonian identity. Through these monumental successes, the American-Canadian Diocese to entrust future generations of Macedonian diaspora continue to resolutely defend and promote the interests of the Macedonians and thereby further contribute to the good of the Macedonian cause. Therefore, entering into coalition with the MPO, which is required to support the US-Canadian eparhiaja, UMD leaves room for justified and unjustified speculation.

Mnogu is little credible that the head of the American-Canadian Diocese, Metropolitan Methods, was detailed and essentially familiar with sostvot and political background of this coalition. Therefore, if the support is really approved of his visokopravosveshtenishtvo, it podrdshka can only be interpreted as dobronamerna and unspecified national modality. However, his visokopravosveshtenishtvo d. Methods are urgently eparhiskata to withdraw support to the coalition and to warn eparhiskite municipalities across America and Canada to cooperate with the UMD until changes occur in the composition. Accordingly, the American-Canadian Diocese and the MPC will be exempt from the national and political manipulation. At UMD, and it remains to razmili whether to continue participation in this coalition, and how clear will be a learning Macedonians in America.

COLLABORATION Third, most so-called "Macedonian" organizations in this coalition has no legitimate right to represent the Macedonian Diaspora without previously being authorized to do so. If UMD was so strongly interested in the rights of Macedonians in the USA and Canada, then it was very poprifatlivo if you contact them directly to the church-school eparihii and to seek their cooperation. But in such a composition, UMD to push the door of the Macedonian diaspora suspicious "Macedonian" organizations.

There is no doubt that the Macedonian Diaspora Obidinetata you know its true place in the Macedonian diaspora, so this proved a Macedonian organization should know and be careful with whom you enter into a coalition. If UMD is intending to come to accurate information about the Macedonians in America, then that will best done if they directly contact the church dioceses in America. In this case, not only UMD again be forced to seek cooperation from the church communities, but this way Em direct them offered Trojan Horse before the church door, and so unduly jeopardizing their relations with the Macedonian diaspora.

UMD went on stage to play a critical role in the Macedonian diaspora worldwide. It is a dynamic and creative organization that performs a modern system of work. For a short period of its existence, UMD has scored major successes in many areas where the older generation does not uspaea to hack. Lobbying in Washington, the promotion of Macedonian culture, the organization of young Macedonians from the diaspora and a number of other important aktivnoski only a small part of their daily activities. If you continue like this for sure is that the UMD will ustolichi as one of the leading organizations in the Macedonian diaspora. Therefore, this organization deserves to be supported, and the Macedonian diaspora it expects grndiozni works.

Despite UMD, MPO is an outdated organization and no prospect for the future, because the Macedonian diaspora and 'drained Bulgarian mask. Long awaited apocalypse of the Macedonian nation does not realize the power and the field now is focused rebugarizacijata Macedonians as the homeland and the diaspora. Therefore it is not coincidence that MPO i'se dodvoruva the UMD, because for them it is Trojan Horse. Thus, regardless of how big a profit, it does not justify the entry of UMD in coalition with the MPO. With certainty can be argued that the UMD does not foresee the negative side of this coalition, and this act and an insult and inflict great damage on the Macedonian diaspora, American-Canadian Diocese, and with it the Macedonian Orthodox Church. n

[Soldier of Macedon]

There were other ways to go about this, it is not so much the MPO organisation rather its Macedonian members that we should be appealing to. I am not sure if the stigma of Bulgar racism can ever be shaken off.

Risto, what is your impression of Alusheva, the current leader?

[indigen]

There were other ways to go about this, it is not so much the MPO organisation rather its Macedonian members that we should be appealing to. I am not sure if the stigma of Bulgar racism can ever be shaken off.

Risto, what is your impression of Alusheva, the current leader?

Can she be much different in ideology than her husband Tasho/Chris/Christopher Alusheff? Birds of a feather stick together.

Here is my view from earlier in the thread:

Her husband, "Tasho" Alusheff, is 100% Tataroman - so garancija! He calls ethnic Macedonians "Neomani" (favorite insult) and Srbomani, amongst other slurs. Though he says he is a Macedonian, when put on the spot to define his ethnicity he will say he can only be what his Grandfather was - "Bulgarian". He will never change and is so proud of having visited Vancho Mihajlov in Rome. Thus I do not see how the wife would be anything much different in ideology.

IME, the MPO is a dangerous organisation and was very active in installing the Bugaroman regime of LjuBcho Georgievski in power in RM. I should think that instead of UMD turning MPO around we may have the reverse effect.

NB: Macedonian-American Organizations Form 2010 U.S. Census Coalition. This Coalition has an MPO operative as its DIRECTOR, Lt. Col. Vladimir Atseff.

Macedonian-American Organizations Form 2010 U.S. Census Coalition
[...]
Lt. Col. Vladimir Atseff (USA ret.) has been selected as Director of the Coalition. The idea for the joint venture was proposed at the Friends of Macedonia Forum, which he chaired in October 2008 at the Embassy of Macedonia in Washington, D.C.

MPO Advocacy
MPO Representatives Meet with New U.S. Ambassador to Macedonia

In August 2005, MPO National Vice President of the United States Vladimir Atseff, MPO Central Committee Member Fritz Chaleff, and MPO member Stephanie Atseff represented the MPO at a meeting with the new Ambassador of the United States of America to the Republic of Macedonia, Gillian Arlette Milovanovic.
http://www.macedonian.org/Media/AdvDocs/newamb.asp

[indigen]

D-r Lefter Mance: An Open Letter to Georgi Lebamoff (February 2001)

An Open Letter to Georgi Lebamoff:

FOR THE BULGARIAN AND MACEDONIAN LANGUAGES


When I asked them what their nationality was, they answered by asking me the same question. I told them I was Macedonian. “Being of the same origin, makes us Macedonians, too”, they replied. I asked them how they declared themselves in Bulgaria and Greece, and this is what they said: “We do as we are told, so we are either Bulgarians or Greeks ‘by origin’.” You must be wondering how that may be possible, but I do not know the answer myself. Ask the democratic European Union, they may know the answer.



Mr. Lebamof, I took great interest in reading your interview published in Skopje’s “Forum” last October. I understand that you are an honest man and lover of truth. I decided to write to you as you are of the same age as my eldest brother, Dimitar, which means that your father and my mother may have been classmates at the Bulgarian Exarchate School in Istanbul.

However, before I start writing about your father and my mother, I would like to present you a small piece of our Macedonian tragedy: I was born in the Kostur village of Zagorichani, neighbouring the village of your father, Visheni. At that time, around 1870-1880, there were two little kids playing in the neighborhood: one was called Dimitar, the other was Vasil. Both of them attended a gymnasium in Thessalonica, Dimitar in a Bulgarian and Vasil who became Vasilis enrolled the Greek gymnasium. Dimitar left Solun and continued his education in Petrovgrad, Russia. After graduation, he intended to return home, but on his way back, he stopped in Sophia where he founded the Bulgarian Social Democratic Party. Dimitar’s family name was Blagoev. In his honour, the city was named Blagoevgrad.

Vasilis continued studying at the Greek clerical academy in Istanbul. It is quite possible that your father and my mother went to the same school. After his graduation, the Greek Church sent Vasilis to work in Anatolia, in the town of Smyrna. In 1922, when the Greek army invaded the city of Smyrna, Vasilis had already been appointed a head of the church of Smyrna and showed the Greek army the location of the Turkish villages. According to a Greek professor, only a few people survived there. That is the reason why, when Ataturk’s army besieged Smyrna, they had expelled all the Greeks along with Onosis, and hanged Vasilis.Hundreds of thousands of refugees took flight in Macedonia, some went to Kostur. In 1924, my grandfather, accompanied by two other residents from Zagorichani, visited Kostur on a humanitarian mission: 30 refugee families-Madjiri, were sheltered in Zagorihcani. They knew that Vasilis, the head of the church in Smyrna, was born in Zagorichani, so in 1928, the Madjirs renamed our village Vasiliada to pay respect to Vasilis. That is the official name of Zagorichani, Mr. Lebamoff, that is how Vasil became Greek and Dimitar turned Bulgarian.

In the Kostur village, your father and my mother spoke the same language, OUR language, at home. It was the first language of our parents. In Istanbul, they learnt the second language, Bulgarian. Your father immigrated to America and continued to teach you the second language, Bulgarian, whereas our mother cherished the first, language of Zagorichani, the Macedonian language. I can clearly recall the year 1943 when we used to go to church and where my mother would tell me: “This lady speaks Bulgarian; we studied together in Istanbul, but her husband can only speak our language.”

Some members of the MPO claim that the “Macedonian Tribune” ought to be printed in Bulgarian or the language of the Ilinden revolutionists. In 1903, there was no Macedonian alphabet and our neighbouring countries would not open academies in Athens, Sophia or Belgrade. If only the Ilinden revolutionists could have written in Macedonian! Almost all the leaders of Ilinden completed their education in Sophia, normally, without any fees, as is the case nowadays. They could only write in Bulgarian. That is exactly what they did. Even Goce Delcev wrote in Bulgarian, he was a Bulgarian teacher who said: “Whoever wishes to see Macedonia annexed to Bulgaria, Greece or Serbia, he can regard himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but can never be a good Macedonian.”

The Ilinden leaders wrote in Bulgarian because of the reasons mentioned above; the Ilinden army and its soldiers spoke ours, the Macedonian language. It was during the period of 1940 until 1948 when I communicated with those soldiers in that language which was not Bulgarian.

Your father, as well as other Macedonians from Kostur region, Mr. Lebamoff, who started to publish the “Macedonian Tribune”, were not writing in their mother tongue, in the Kostur language, in the Macedonian, but used the language they had studied at the Bulgarian school, as had Goce Delcev. You maintain that Blaze Koneski modified the language and the alphabet; you are mistaken; what he did is he took the language variant spoken in Kostur, Lerin, Bitola and Prilep in order to define an official Macedonian language. Now you will say that in Kostur we do not use the word “vlada”(government), or “pravitelstvo” (legislation). After the liberation of Bulgaria from the Turkish occupation in 1878, the Bulgarians borrowed thousands of Russian words, among which “pravitelstvo”. Who passed a law in 1945 stating that we should be borrowing words only from the Bulgarian or Russian languages, and not the other Slavic languages like Serbo-Croatian? Both the Serbs and Croats have the same word “vlada”, but in Kostur we did not say that’s how the Turks “pravestvuvaja” for 5 centuries, but “vladeeja” (governed) for 5 centuries.

Some people in Bulgaria and MPO claim that the Macedonian language and nation were born under the command of Stalin and Tito in the monastery of Prohor Pchinski, on Ilinden 1944. If you, or anybody else can tell me exactly when and at what time that took place, I will be ready to forget the Macedonian history starting from the times of Alexander the Great to Cyril and Methodius and Tsar Samuil, followed by Karposh, Delchev and Chento ending with Kiro Gligorov, in other words everything that is Macedonian, and I will start to declare as Macedonian from that day, that hour and that very minute. Oh, Mr. Lebamoff, where were Stalin and Tito in 1903 when Misirkov published his book “For the Macedonian Matters”? There he declared to be Macedonian, that his grandfather who was illiterate and believed in foreign propaganda might have declared as Bulgarian, but, the question Misirkov posed is the following: Being educated and literate, do I have to do the same?” Misirkov wrote the book in Macedonian and if you start reading it, you will notice that today’s Macedonian language is closer to the Bulgarian than to the language of Misirkov.

Do you know that the Greek government in Athens in 1925 ordered the publication of a Primer book in the language spoken in the village of Visheni? The three teachers who were the authors of the book intended for the Macedonian students were Macedonians originating from Kostur. If you find it hard to believe me, I keep one sample of the book and I am willing to send it to you. That book was written in the language of your and my mother, the first language of your father. We, the Macedonian students, back in the year 1953, in Budapest, formed a secret literacy society. One of the members was from Visheni. At that time, being still children, never before had we heard of Koneski, or Kolisevski, but knew that there existed an “imperialistic dog” residing in Yugoslavia, whose name was Tito.

If the people who state that the Macedonian language was born in 1944, are right, then that is not a miracle each language develops. Until 1990 there was no Serbian or Croatian, but only a Serbo-Croatian language. All the dictionaries before 1990 had been printed in Serbo-Croatian-Russian, Serbo-Croatia-English etc. Now, it is only Serbian or Croatian. Even at present times, radio London announces: this is London in Serbo-Croatian, or Paris: This is radio Paris in south Slavic, which is actually Serbo-Croatian. If you speak the same language, does it necessarily mean that you are of the same nationality? Are you a Englishman? What about the Germans and Austrians? Not to mention the Spaniards and Mexicans, or Argentineans? The Serbo-Croatian is far more related than Macedonian to Bulgarian, and yet the Serbs and Croats regard themselves as separate nations. What seems to be the problem then between the Bulgarians and us? Due to the aspirations towards Macedonia, Bulgaria suffered a great loss, but it apparently did not learn its lesson.

For the tragedy to be greater, I will tell you that 5 years ago, I invited 15 close relatives from Macedonia, Greece and Bulgaria to spend their vacation in Ohrid, among which my sister from Zagorichani. When I asked them what their nationality was, they answered me by asking the same question. I told them I was Macedonian. “Being of the same origin, makes us Macedonians, too,” they said. I asked them how they declare themselves in Bulgaria and Greece and they answered: “We do as we are told: we are either Bulgarians or Greeks by ‘origin’.” You will ask me how that may be possible, but I do not know the answer. Ask the democratic European Union. They may have the right answer.

Mr. LebamoFf, I am not a man of substantial wealth, however, I will be able to collect enough means and support your transportation so that together, we could follow the traces of truth. First of all, I would like to let you know that I grew up in Hungary with over 100 children, some of whom came from your village Visheni. Let us begin with Budapest, where, we will pay a visit to Kosta Andreov who publishes the Macedonian magazine ”Macedonian Well”. Then, we will ask this patriot, born in your village, to tell us how he regards himself in Hungary, as a Macedonian or Bulgarian. We will then continue our trip to Bulgaria to see my relatives. You will not disclose your name, for if they find out you are Lebamoff, they will be frightened. I am not certain that the Bulgarians will grant me a visa because they rejected my application in 1961 when I wished to spend my honeymoon there, only because I declared myself as Macedonian, whereas my wife had no problems obtaining it. Leaving Bulgaria, our next destination will be my native village Zagorichani and there we will ask my sister some questions. She won’t be afraid of you since she will have no idea who you are. Then, we will head to your village of Visheni. Should we find a single person during our journey declaring to be a Bulgarian, then you will not have to return the travel expenses. However if they all say to be Macedonians, then you are responsible for bearing the expenditures. I would have suggested Australia as a better place since there is a large number of children-refugees I grew up together with in Hungary, but I’m afraid if they see me with you, they will beat me up thinking I became a Janissary.

I will be ready to anything that can happen to me in Bulgaria or Greece, since every day is my punishment, having outlived the three of my brothers who had sacrificed their lives in order to be allowed to speak the language of the Ilinden revolutionists who had been educated in Bulgaria.

Do you, Mr. Lebamoff, know that in May 1903, just before Ilinden, a Greek reporter interviewed the president of the Krushevo republic, Nikola Karev. He asked him the following question: “ What are you? –A Macedonian, replied Karev. Then, why are you in favour of Bulgaria? –Bulgaria is aiding us in our struggle against the Turks. If you Greeks offer yourselves to help us, we will favour you as well,” said Karev. The interview was published in the Athenian “Akropolis” newspaper. Should you wish to read it, I can send you the Macedonian translation or the original copy of the newspaper written in Greek. You will excuse me but I do not have the Bulgarian version, a fact that is still hiding there until this present day.

You say you visited Vancho Mihajloff when you were 50 years of age, and Mihajloff was at the age of 100. Then he told you: “Georgi, you are a Bulgarian.” Didn’t you know that already? Or did you have to wait for a senile old senseless man to tell you who you are? What would you say if I visited you and told you were a Turk. Would you believe me? I graduated from 2 universities and I believe to have more brain than Ratko and here is the argument: at the beginning of 1944, Ratko arrived in Skopje in order to form a second Bulgarian state the Balkans - a fascist Republic of Macedonia. The whole world knew that Germany had lost the war and that the Red Army crossed Danube and was within reach of the city of Sophia. What was Mihajloff doing there? Did Mihajloff lose his brain? His people in Skopje told him this: “Uncle Ratko, get out of here right now since Chento’s partisans are arriving in Skopje from all sides and once they catch you, they will hang you on a tree by the river Vardar. Mihajloff got scared and left immediately. Did you know that?

Mr. Lebamoff, if you do know the tragic history of our suffering Macedonian people, you will not only become a Macedonian patriot like myself, but a Macedonian nationalist as are all the people born in Visheni, especially those living as far as Australia.

To sum up, Mr. Lebamoff, I would like to let you know that my youngest brother was shot in Solun at the age of 17, and the other two brothers and my mother lost their lives fighting for the rights of the Macedonian people at the battlefield near your father’s village, Visheni. I do not have any information as to the location of my mother’s and my brothers’ graves, but when we meet up there, in front of the gates of heaven, can I tell them: Sorry mother and brothers, you were in a delusion.


D-r Lefter Mance,

Ottawa, February

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/newspaper/april01/lebamof.html

[osiris]

thank you risto and indigen for your fine posts.

i agree with som, appealing to the macedonian people who may still be patriotic enough macedonians within mpo and i assure the pun was intended to finally wake from their idoitic left over bulgarian dreaming would be a good strategy.

but dialouge with such staunch bgarashi who still lead the mpo is pointless and maybe counterproductive.

could this be the umds finest achievment to date, alliance with the famous but fatally flawed mpo,or is the umd leadership the macedonian version of the key stone cops in action.

where are you phoenix when i need you.