Concerning the non-Greek origin and history of Asia Minor

[Carlin]

- One of the oldest peoples in the Middle East and the largest nation in the world without a state. Kurdistan - the country of Kurds - is the name for the mountainous end of the undisturbed borders between the mountains of Ararat, Taurus and Zagros in southeastern Turkey, northeastern Iraq, northwestern Iran and northeastern Syria. Important cities are: Diyarbakir, Bitlis, Van, Mosul, Kirkuk, Kermanshah. Due to its rich reserves of water and oil (with copper, iron, chromite), this once-forgotten region has become economically and strategically important today.

- The very word Kurdistan appears for the first time in Islamic texts of the 12th century. The origin of Kurds is unexplored. They appear under other names in the Bible and the Quran. They are considered descendants of the Medes. Before the expansion of Islam, Kurds were Zoroastrians, and minority Christians. The Islamization of Kurdistan, about 630 AD, signified a major change in the history of this people.

- In the 18th century, the liberation movement began, with the rise of local emirs. In the next century, the Kurds responded with uprisings to the Centralist reforms of Turkey.

- In 1898, the first Kurdish newspapers came out, which further contributed to the development of Kurdish national consciousness. The political program of the new elite was very moderate.

- During the First World War, the Kurdish League assumed the task of establishing an autonomous national state of Kurdistan in the Diyarbakir-Bitlis area. But, the dream of the Kurdish homeland remained unfulfilled. In the newly established Republic of Turkey, they became Turkish citizens along with numerous Circassians and Lazes. Kurds were classifed as "Mountain Turks" in this time period, which led to an uprising in the 1930s.

[Carlin]

[Carlin]

Assimilation and Revolt in the Territory of Isauria, from the First Century BC to the Sixth Century AD, Noel Lenski




URL:

https://www.academia.edu/2490104/Assimilation_and_Revolt_in_the_Territory_of_Isauria_from_the_First_Century_BC_to_the_Sixth_Century_AD

Report from PHILOSTORGIUS:

"Besides these calamities, the tribe of the Isaurians inflicted several disasters on the Romans. For in the East they overran Cilicia and the neighbouring parts of Syria, and not only what is called Coele-Syria, but all that tract which stretches on till it joins Persia. But towards the north and north-west they invaded Pamphylia and laid waste Lycia. They also devastated the island of Cyprus, and likewise carried off the Lycaonians and Pisidians into slavery; and having driven the Cappadocians out of their settlements, and taken them captive, they pushed on as far as Pontus, and treated their captives far more savagely than was customary among the other barbarians."

From the EPITOME OF THE ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY OF PHILOSTORGIUS:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/philostorgius.htm

PS:

Isauria History

Around 320 BCE: Isaura Palaia is besieged by the Macedonians. The Isaurians chose to burn the town instead of surrendering.
76-75: Isauria is conquered by the Romans.
Around 66: Pompey merges Isauria with Cilicia.
Around 0: Becomes part of the Roman province of Galatia.
Early 4th century CE: Isauria is reshaped as its own province, eventually incorporating the eastern part of Pamphylia.
Early 5th century: Tarasicodissa is born in Isauria; he would become Byzantine emperor 474-491 under the name of Zeno, bringing with him Isaurian notables into the imperial administration.
492-496: Revolt against new emperor, Anastasius 1, led by Zeno's brother, Cardala. The war is known as Isaurian War.
6th century: Isauria is effectively incorporated into the Byzantine Empire, by actions of Justinian 1.
695-698: Leontius of Isaurian origin is Byzantine emperor.
717-741: Another Leo, said to be of Isaurian origin, becomes emperor.
11th century: Seljuq Turks manage to take control of Isauria, and through intermarriage, Turks and Isaurians become a mixed people.
1901: The site of Isaura Vetus is identified.

URL:

http://i-cias.com/e.o/isauria.htm

[Carlin]

From Romanland: Ethnicity and Empire in Byzantium, by Anthony Kaldellis

[tchaiku]

Link:

http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=2889

In this article, focusing on the situation prevailing in the islands of the Aegean in the Middle Ages, listed unknown and rare testimonies of numerous travelers, which in the timespan of hundreds of years describe many islands as uninhabited, completely deserted.

Large scourges were wars, frequent deadly epidemics and piracy, due to which thousands of residents of the islands dragged as slaves in the bazaars of the East. Population gaps replenished from time to time various groups of people from other places, such as North Africa, the East and in many cases, as we shall see, poor Albanians.

The article is based on excerpts translated from the works of the English historian and archaeologist Frederick William Hasluck (1878-1920): «Depopulation in the Aegean Islands and the Turkish Conquest» (The Annual of the British School at Athens, Vol. 17, 1910 / 1911, pp. 151-181) and «Albanian Settlements in the Aegean islands» (The Annual of the British School at Athens, Vol. 15, 1908/1909, pp. 223-228).


The table below (which I translated from Greek using Google Translate) is a summary of research on desolation and the restocking of the islands in the period before the Cretan War (and, apparently this is historical data only for a period from roughly 14th century to 17th century. What happened in antiquity? What happened in the all the centuries preceding the 14th c.?).



Conclusion from the article:

"… in three similar periods of unrest in the Aegean region there are significant population movements: During the Cretan War (1645-1669), during the Orloff revolt (1770-1774) and the period of '21 (1821-1830).

Yet, until now we thought that the population of the islands has never changed since ancient times and that even the dialects are directly related to ancient dialects.

But historical data can’t be denied that although the islanders boast that they are purebred descendants of the ancient Greeks (though in ancient times the intermarriage was not something unknown), the island populations have undergone significant racial changes even a few centuries ago."

You should make a thread about Greek islands alone.

[Carlin]

1) Samos is an island in the eastern Aegean Sea.

1204: During the fourth crusade Samos is granted to Venetians until 1247.
1346: Genoese come to Samos.
1476: Because of pirates Samians immigrated to Chios and Asia Minor - Samos remained deserted of residents.
1549: Recolonization of the island with the aid of Kilic Ali Pasha.

Occhiali (Giovanni Dionigi Galeni or Giovan Dionigi Galeni, also Uluj Ali, Turkish: Uluç Ali Reis, later Uluç Ali Paşa and finally Kılıç Ali Paşa; 1519 – 21 June 1587) was an Italian farmer, then Ottoman privateer and admiral, who later became beylerbey of the Regency of Algiers, and finally Grand Admiral (Kapudan Pasha) of the Ottoman fleet in the 16th century.

Born Giovanni Dionigi Galeni, he was also known by several other names in the Christian countries of the Mediterranean and in the literature also appears under various names. Miguel de Cervantes called him Uchali in chapter XXXIX of his Don Quixote de la Mancha. Elsewhere he was simply called Ali Pasha. John Wolf, in his The Barbary Coast, refers to him as Euldj Ali.

URL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occhiali

2) "Dad, are we Laz or Turkish?":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG9pAnjquT0

[Carlin]

I recently asked a Thessalian man if there there were any Pontian refugees that settled in the region where his family lives. I also asked him what was his opinion in terms of the ethnic ancestry and heritage of the Pontians.

He replied that in his region, no. No refugees from Anatolia. In other parts of Thessaly there were some, but mostly people from western Anatolia and not Pontos.

He also said:

"Pontians were known as Lazi, which is the name Byzantines used for the nation today known as Georgians. But they are not exactly the same as Georgians. They are a mixture of many different tribes of Caucasus and Anatolia + Armenians."

[Carlin]

The most interesting thing the Thessalian said - and he doesn't seem to be a Greek nationalist at all - is that he did a lot of digging into his family and village history and found that the village was likely founded by Serbian settlers. The predominant version is that the village was built between the 11th and 13th centuries by farmers who came down from present-day Serbia after the 11th century. No Vlachs or Arvanites in his region of Thessaly but lots of indications that Slavs lived there.

He said that his father called their village Njivoljani (this is eastern Thessaly), which is similar to the Macedonian village of NEVOLJANI. The village is called Megalovryso today and here is the wikipedia link for it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalovryso

He said that his mother is from Karditsa and she also has Slavic roots. He has investigated a lot, because from his dad's side they have Slavic-Serbian ancestors (5-6 generations back and further). Many surnames of this regions have "suspicious" Slavic derivation, for example Kravaritis or Bikas. Velika beach is one of the best beaches of Larisa area. There was one toponym Smokovo.

The memory that these villagers once spoke a Slavonic dialect has been wiped clean off although many traces remain in toponyms and family names to indicate Slavic origins. He said that the state changed the Slavic surnames. At least those that they understood that they were Slavic (his surname was not so obvious that it is Slavic, so they did not change it). We are talking about southeastern Thessaly here. He even emphasized the point which was that Hammond shows a South Slavic majority in regions of eastern Thessaly.

He said most of the villages in his area of southeastern Thessaly appear for the very first time at around 16th-17th century, but he has no clue where they came from (obviously from some place inhabited by Slavs in the Balkans, but where?). Also in some maps it is shown that it is inhabited by Serbs/Croats. Some of the Slavic surnames you may find there are Garavelis (Garavelj), Kravaritis (Kravaric), Zouzoulas (Zuzul), Krikelis (Krkelj), Koutinas (Kutina), Pliatsikas or Pliatskas or Pliaskas (Pljackas/Pljaskas), Bikas, Koukouras, Petsias (pec), Tsaras (Car), Detsikas (Decko) and so on.

He basically said the eastern parts of Thessaly are predominantly Slavic and western parts are predominantly Vlach/Aromanian. In the eastern parts of Thessaly there was a boom of Slavic toponyms a few centuries ago. He admitted that Evrytania is well known for its Vlach population (which is the ethnic base of the region) - also Epirus and especially Pindos mountains.

[Niko777]

The most interesting thing the Thessalian said - and he doesn't seem to be a Greek nationalist at all - is that he did a lot of digging into his family and village history and found that the village was likely founded by Serbian settlers. The predominant version is that the village was built between the 11th and 13th centuries by farmers who came down from present-day Serbia after the 11th century. No Vlachs or Arvanites in his region of Thessaly but lots of indications that Slavs lived there.

He said that his father called their village Njivoljani (this is eastern Thessaly), which is similar to the Macedonian village of NEVOLJANI. The village is called Megalovryso today and here is the wikipedia link for it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalovryso

He said that his mother is from Karditsa and she also has Slavic roots. He has investigated a lot, because from his dad's side they have Slavic-Serbian ancestors (5-6 generations back and further). Many surnames of this regions have "suspicious" Slavic derivation, for example Kravaritis or Bikas. Velika beach is one of the best beaches of Larisa area. There was one toponym Smokovo.

The memory that these villagers once spoke a Slavonic dialect has been wiped clean off although many traces remain in toponyms and family names to indicate Slavic origins. He said that the state changed the Slavic surnames. At least those that they understood that they were Slavic (his surname was not so obvious that it is Slavic, so they did not change it). We are talking about southeastern Thessaly here. He even emphasized the point which was that Hammond shows a South Slavic majority in regions of eastern Thessaly.

He said most of the villages in his area of southeastern Thessaly appear for the very first time at around 16th-17th century, but he has no clue where they came from (obviously from some place inhabited by Slavs in the Balkans, but where?). Also in some maps it is shown that it is inhabited by Serbs/Croats. Some of the Slavic surnames you may find there are Garavelis (Garavelj), Kravaritis (Kravaric), Zouzoulas (Zuzul), Krikelis (Krkelj), Koutinas (Kutina), Pliatsikas or Pliatskas or Pliaskas (Pljackas/Pljaskas), Bikas, Koukouras, Petsias (pec), Tsaras (Car), Detsikas (Decko) and so on.

He basically said the eastern parts of Thessaly are predominantly Slavic and western parts are predominantly Vlach/Aromanian. In the eastern parts of Thessaly there was a boom of Slavic toponyms a few centuries ago. He admitted that Evrytania is well known for its Vlach population (which is the ethnic base of the region) - also Epirus and especially Pindos mountains.

Thanks for sharing this with us Carlin. I'm not surprised at what you found. Slavic toponyms are common in Thessaly, I first noticed this when looking at old maps of Macedonia and seeing the names of villages on the Thessalian side of the Macedonia-Thessaly border. What surprised me was the individual you met knew about his non-Greek origins and was open in sharing this information with you. But then I realized this issue was never politicized in Thessaly as it was in Aegean Macedonia. So when it comes to discussing these topics people of Thessaly might not feel the same amount of shame, or paranoia, or obligation to adhere to Greek nationalist ideology, like the people in Aegean Macedonia do.

[tchaiku]

The most interesting thing the Thessalian said - and he doesn't seem to be a Greek nationalist at all - is that he did a lot of digging into his family and village history and found that the village was likely founded by Serbian settlers. The predominant version is that the village was built between the 11th and 13th centuries by farmers who came down from present-day Serbia after the 11th century. No Vlachs or Arvanites in his region of Thessaly but lots of indications that Slavs lived there.

He said that his father called their village Njivoljani (this is eastern Thessaly), which is similar to the Macedonian village of NEVOLJANI. The village is called Megalovryso today and here is the wikipedia link for it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalovryso

He said that his mother is from Karditsa and she also has Slavic roots. He has investigated a lot, because from his dad's side they have Slavic-Serbian ancestors (5-6 generations back and further). Many surnames of this regions have "suspicious" Slavic derivation, for example Kravaritis or Bikas. Velika beach is one of the best beaches of Larisa area. There was one toponym Smokovo.

The memory that these villagers once spoke a Slavonic dialect has been wiped clean off although many traces remain in toponyms and family names to indicate Slavic origins. He said that the state changed the Slavic surnames. At least those that they understood that they were Slavic (his surname was not so obvious that it is Slavic, so they did not change it). We are talking about southeastern Thessaly here. He even emphasized the point which was that Hammond shows a South Slavic majority in regions of eastern Thessaly.

He said most of the villages in his area of southeastern Thessaly appear for the very first time at around 16th-17th century, but he has no clue where they came from (obviously from some place inhabited by Slavs in the Balkans, but where?). Also in some maps it is shown that it is inhabited by Serbs/Croats. Some of the Slavic surnames you may find there are Garavelis (Garavelj), Kravaritis (Kravaric), Zouzoulas (Zuzul), Krikelis (Krkelj), Koutinas (Kutina), Pliatsikas or Pliatskas or Pliaskas (Pljackas/Pljaskas), Bikas, Koukouras, Petsias (pec), Tsaras (Car), Detsikas (Decko) and so on.

He basically said the eastern parts of Thessaly are predominantly Slavic and western parts are predominantly Vlach/Aromanian. In the eastern parts of Thessaly there was a boom of Slavic toponyms a few centuries ago. He admitted that Evrytania is well known for its Vlach population (which is the ethnic base of the region) - also Epirus and especially Pindos mountains.

Maybe in his region not but Vlachs were most likely present in all of Thessaly. In fact south-eastern Thessaly was the first region that Vlachs were attested.

Vlachs and Albanians were called to populate deserted zones with Slavic placenames, just one example:
''Anna Komnene reports a Vlach settlement near Mount Ossa in 1083''
''alternative Kissavos (Κίσσαβος, from South Slavic kisha "wet weather,f rain"

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mount+Ossa/@39.6841412,20.9695587,7.88z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x14a78870edbafbb7:0xb1970b9fa16eb7b3!8m2!3d39.7969444!4d22.6869444!5m1!1e4

[tchaiku]

I recently asked a Thessalian man if there there were any Pontian refugees that settled in the region where his family lives. I also asked him what was his opinion in terms of the ethnic ancestry and heritage of the Pontians.

He replied that in his region, no. No refugees from Anatolia. In other parts of Thessaly there were some, but mostly people from western Anatolia and not Pontos.

He also said:

"Pontians were known as Lazi, which is the name Byzantines used for the nation today known as Georgians. But they are not exactly the same as Georgians. They are a mixture of many different tribes of Caucasus and Anatolia + Armenians."

They are not exactly Lazes either because of the major Armenian (and other Anatolian) influence on them. They have some ancient Greek ancestry too but it is safe to assume it is minimal, probably 5% or less.

[Carlin]

That's within "statistical error".

Some Pontians likely have some ancestors who were also:

- indigenous Anatolians
- Iranians
- Turkic tribes
- Various people who migrated to Pontos and converted to Orthodox Christianity and adopted the Common Greek language
- Muslim women who married Pontian males and were converted to Christianity, and many others.

[Carlin]

The existence of Bulgarian villages in Anatolia was noted by western travellers such as the Italian Dr Salvatori (1807), the Frenchman J.M. Tancoigne and the Briton George Keppel (1829). Tancoigne describes his experience in Kız-Dervent (located farther east, between İzmit and İznik) as follows:

"We were pleasantly surprised by finding in that village women who would walk with their faces uncovered, and men whose manners contradicted the Asian ones entirely. We also discovered dresses of the residents of the Danube's banks and heard a Slavic language in an area where we would regard it as absolutely foreign ... The locals told us they were of Bulgarian origin and their village had been founded almost a century ago by their fathers ... The residents of that village are Christians, Eastern Orthodox."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_Bulgarians

[Carlin]

The nation of Tzanoi (Sanoi), Romans (Roman army, Roman soldiery, Roman territory, emperor of the Romans), Armenians.... What am I missing here?

[Amphipolis]

The nation of Tzanoi (Sanoi), Romans (Roman army, Roman soldiery, Roman territory, emperor of the Romans), Armenians.... What am I missing here?

The fact that you're not in Asia Minor probably.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanni

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