Toynbee gives a death blow to the chauvinism of Greece

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  • Epirot
    Member
    • Mar 2010
    • 399

    #16
    Originally posted by Onur View Post
    Arnold Toynbee was one of the greatest historians of the recent century. He wrote several masterpiece books.

    He had a pro-Greek stance b4 the WW-1 since he was a member of British nobility, so it was a quite normal behavior for people like himself. He was also a member of several pro-Greek organizations but after WW-1, he didn't approve the Greek invasion of Anatolia. Especially after seeing the massacres, rape and pillages of Greek army in aegean Anatolia, he was strictly against the British policy of Greece. Then he later become the enemy of Venizelos`s Greek state because of this.
    Well said Onur! This even happen to other historians and intellectuals who were once ardent sympathizers of Greek cause. For instance, Lord Byron and George Finlay were disgusted with the barbarism of their perfect "Hellenes" when they massacred Albanian and Turk Muslims of the besieged cities. Such cruelty was unseen before.
    "Greek" nationalist historians can write whatever they want or suit to their nationalist agenda, but let be known to everyone that Ottoman regime was 100 times better than their rude rule. I am not glorifying Ottomans but I am asking myself why people used to live peacefully with each other in the Ottoman period of "Greece".

    For five centuries Salonica was ruled by an empire, under the Islamic sultans in Constantinople, but it was generally inhabited by people of three religious faiths - Muslims, Christians and Jews. For the most part they lived peaceably.

    Four years later, Greek armies ended Turkish rule. The Muslim population stayed put, only to be expelled in the aftermath of World War I as continued fighting between Greece and Turkey resulted in a population exchange: Greek communities evicted from Anatolia replaced them in the city. While Jews adapted to Greek rule, nationalist propaganda was a constant source of tension. Then came World War II, and the Germans. A community that had thrived for 450 years was almost annihilated in two months in 1943 at Auschwitz. Salonica had become wholly Greek, and has remained so ever since. At least, in part due to the swift intervention by British troops in 1944 blunting an armed Communist uprising, it did not end up on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. Today it prospers once again.

    The Ottoman era ended when Greek troops entered the city in October 1912. At this point, Mazower changes course, providing less a history of Salonica or of the interplay among its ethnic components than an account of the often difficult relations between, in particular, the Greek state and the city’s Jews.

    At the time, just 25 percent of Salonica’s inhabitants were Greek Christians, a fact of great concern to its new rulers. As one officer observed, Salonica was a “gaudy city with all the tribes of Israel,” a place with “nothing Greek about it, nor European.” So the Greek government set about “Hellenizing” Salonica with the usual tools of the nationalist state, imposing the Greek language, which was known by few of the city’s residents, and changing street names.

    An opportunity to do still more came in 1917, after the last of the great fires. With half of the population homeless, and most Jews without shelter, the Greek authorities swept away the charred remnants of the Ottoman city, replacing it with a French-style metropolis of broad, straight boulevards.

    Engineering of a different sort was applied to Salonica’s population. New housing estates were filled with Greek Christian refugees. These had arrived in large numbers after World War I and the failed Greek attempt to resurrect the Byzantine Empire by conquering western Turkey. In 1923, the city’s Muslims were forced to move to Turkey as part of a population exchange. The minarets once vilified by a Greek journalist as “the symbols of a barbarous religion” were demolished, stripping Salonica of the most visible aspect of its Ottoman heritage.

    With the Muslims gone, the Jews remained the only substantial non-Greek element in a city whose identity and appearance had changed drastically in just over a decade. Increasingly marginalized, many Jews emigrated. Most of those who remained met their end in 1943, with deportation to Auschwitz. As Mazower reports in his brief account, the Nazis (who had conquered Greece in 1941) succeeded in murdering over 90 percent of the 50,000 Jews living in Salonica on the eve of World War II.

    Let take an example: when Albanians established a semi-autonomous state (Pashalluk of Jannina which encompassed a vast area stretching from Central Albania down to the Attica), "Greek" was official language of administrate and culture, even though most of inhabitants knew no other language, but Albanian. When the Greek savages invaded Epirus, they not only expelled thousands of Albanian Muslims, but they even forbid the usage of Albanian in public.
    Last edited by Epirot; 08-19-2011, 06:55 AM.
    IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

    Comment

    • Voltron
      Banned
      • Jan 2011
      • 1362

      #17
      Originally posted by Epirot View Post
      They will ban you on the moment you expose something that goes against their mainstream. They are just a bunch of racists who applaud and encourage the racism of each other.
      Thats a lie, nobody ever gets banned over there. The only time your banned is if your a complete troll that posts nothing but one liners.
      Even in that case your given multiple warnings. You on the other hand do not fit in that category. So instead of circle jerking with other Greek haters, go show what you got Epiroti. Show some Besa.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13675

        #18
        Originally posted by Voltron View Post
        SOM, not too long ago I was flamed by a couple of my compatriots on AMAC forum stating my "capitulation" to your demands regarding my participation on this forum.
        Your 'compatriots' at that forum are a bunch of racist donkeys. What they consider 'capitulation' is far removed from reality, so spare me the appeal for sympathy, because you know exactly what you're doing here.
        I told you a million times that as for myself speaking there is no intention to come here and try to convert anyone or to try to convince anyone of my positions and is the reason why I do not post sources.
        Yet you continue to spew up the same garbage. Why are you here?
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Voltron
          Banned
          • Jan 2011
          • 1362

          #19
          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          Yet you continue to spew up the same garbage. Why are you here?
          I like debating different opinions. I dont have as much an interest in being in a forum where everyone agrees with each other.
          Ive worked the boards in here and you would have noticed that I participate in threads that have nothing to do with Ancient Macedonia or the Macedonian issue. Ive discussed everything under the sun, but at times I do express my opinions on the very same matters that you find racist or historically incorrect. What can I say SOM, we differ in that area.

          I wasnt going for sympathy either, im not a pussy.

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13675

            #20
            Originally posted by Voltron View Post
            I like debating different opinions.
            You're not debating, you're preaching trash, repetitively.
            I dont have as much an interest in being in a forum where everyone agrees with each other.
            One would have to be blind to suggest that everybody agrees with each other on this forum. Furthermore, one would have to be completely stupid if they think they can taint and negate the history of the Macedonian people and then try to claim it as difference in opinion. We don't need you to tell us the opinion of Greek chauvinists and racists. The internet is full of them, and their opinions, which are largely based on delusion, are unfortunately over-represented. This is a Macedonian forum, in case that fact slipped your mind. We are countering Greek racism, not providing it a platform. Everytime you or that 100-time recycled moron Cultea blabber on about the Macedonians and/or their history being Greek, is an insult to the Macedonian people. Keep pretending to be dumb, Voltron.
            I wasnt going for sympathy either, im not a pussy.
            That's great. Tell you're buddies at moron.com about it, you know, the one's who think you've 'capitulated' because you were able to call us Macedonians without having a nervous breakdown. Racist scum.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • cultea
              Banned
              • Jul 2011
              • 126

              #21
              Originally posted by Epirot View Post
              1. Why do you have trouble to get the point? It's crystal clear: Arnold Toynbee who had a pro-Greek stance condemned the chauvinism of Greeks toward Macedonia. He was disgusted with the predatory goals of Greeks toward its neighbors.

              2. The reason why I don't post on their forums is because I don't go to the sanitation of black waters. It's above all a matter of hygiene. They will ban you on the moment you expose something that goes against their mainstream. They are just a bunch of racists who applaud and encourage the racism of each other.

              3. Here I lost you! It's not the issue whether Greek chauvinists were aware of Toynbee's existence or not. Toynbee just noticed the wild chauvinism of Greece to conquer Macedonia on the name of 'historical sentiments'
              1. The small passage you posted doesnít show disgust but it does doubt on the Greek and Bulgarian arguments. Still, he doesnít seem favorable to your point of view on Macedonia. He doesnít seem to suggest Alexander the Great was not Greek or Samuel was not Bulgarian. He considers them long forgotten and irrelevant to the present-day people and land. (Iím sorry I donít know what he says in the previous or next page or what his opinion was on the Macedonian Question)

              2. Still, if you read a discussion with 50 posts in another forum and come here to post the answer and your counter-arguments we canít really follow. Iím blocked and I canít even view this forum.

              3. His expressions are not that hostile. I have no further comments because this passage has no info, just his opinion and I canít understand or see any importance. If you could post his arguments it would be more interesting.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13675

                #22
                Originally posted by Cultea
                He doesn’t seem to suggest Alexander the Great was not Greek or Samuel was not Bulgarian. He considers them long forgotten and irrelevant to the present-day people and land.
                What does that have anything to do with it? The whole point is that he considers Greek intentions for Macedonia as chauvinistic. Just like yours. Why must you knuckleheads always harp on about something from 2000 years ago when most of your own ancestors only 200 years ago weren't speaking Greek as a native tongue? That, by the way, is a fact, and not modern fiction based ancient fiction.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • cultea
                  Banned
                  • Jul 2011
                  • 126

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                  1. Voltron/Cultea, in nearly every thread you clowns are posting on, all we are reading is the false claim that Macedonia and her historical figures are Greek. We are well aware of the deluded positions that you hold, and we are well aware of how full of shit the both of you are. Furthermore, you are both well aware of the positions that we hold, given that we are actually Macedonians, and not Greeks, Vlachs or some Christian conglomerates with Asian ancestry, like you are.

                  2. I am positive that the both of you knuckleheads have read the rules of this forum and have taken note that one of them does not allow anti-Macedonian propaganda. Yet here you are, after a long spell of behaving like something that resembles 'normality', back to your old tricks again.

                  3. Get it through your thick skulls that this isn't the place where the ancestry of the Macedonian people is tarnished with manipulative lies, garbage and that pathetic Greek propaganda that you've both been regurgitating as of late. This is the place where the Macedonian point of view about their OWN people is given prevalence, because after all, that is their OWN history.

                  4. I think both of you will be going on a holiday very soon. And you won't be given any courtesy or explanation, because we have seen this sick little game that you two maggots are playing time and again from the previous maggots (or yourselves posing as alternative maggots) that have been on this forum. Quite frankly, I have not the time nor the patience to go through this cyclic stupidity once more. Ask yourselves why you're here. Is it to learn more about the real Macedonians, or to try and push through this fake 'Macedonian' trash that morons like yourselves hang on to as a geographical identity. To me, it seems like the latter. In which case, you serve no valid purpose here. The only Greek with half a brain on this forum at the moment is Agamoi Thytai, who, even though sharing similar opinions to yourselves, at least tries to respond with some sources and doesn't feel the need to continually harp on about the same trash with no substance. Or perhaps he is also going through a phase of 'normality' like you were not long ago.
                  1. I agree that youíre actually Macedonian and that you are not Greek. Did I claim that Macedoniaís historical figures are Greek? Which ones? I didnít meanÖ you.

                  2. So how do you define normality?

                  3. UhÖ OK

                  4. I like Agamoi Thytai very much too. But, this is not my style. Iím not interested in finding books, underlining them and posting them here. I prefer a more natural and less ďprofessionalĒ interaction.
                  Yes, every member of the forum does have a personality and a value. Iíve noticed that since most of you are from Australia youíre totally detached from the realities of Macedonia (and occasionally Europe). I live in Thessaloniki, so if you have any questions or interests about Greece I think I may be able to answer, inform you or correct you. Thatís how I would generally describe my role here, but then again Iím not a robot and donít follow any strict rules.

                  Comment

                  • Epirot
                    Member
                    • Mar 2010
                    • 399

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                    Thats a lie, nobody ever gets banned over there. The only time your banned is if your a complete troll that posts nothing but one liners.
                    They do not deserve to be advocated by yourself. They're just a bunch of racists with unlimited hatred against others. They spent all the time on applauding each other stupidity, attacking the identity of others and making fallacious propaganda. Most of them are at their 30-40's, but they are disgrace not of themselves but of their families, friends and their people. All of them live in Western countries and theoretically they should be more open-minded than the rest, but that's not the case. Their racism surpasses even that of right-wing Greek circles. Maybe it sounds a little bit pessimistic but this the truth, whether you like it or not. However, hope dies last. I am sure that sooner or later, the winds of tolerance will come in Greece.

                    Originally posted by voltron

                    Even in that case your given multiple warnings. You on the other hand do not fit in that category. So instead of circle jerking with other Greek haters, go show what you got Epiroti. Show some Besa.
                    All of their opponents were banned without any warning. Let us do some math, shall we? According to the available statistics, "AMAC" forum has in total 15,877 posts. Meanwhile, MTO has in total 104,641 posts. That's speaks volume. AMAC is dying fast as there is no discussion because their admins have banned every serious opponent. I suspect that one day they will quarrel with one another to show who is more Greek and who's less Greek, who is traitor, and who is not!!!!

                    The 104, 641 posts (at least at the moment I am writing this reply) speaks about the gigantic difference between you and us.
                    Last edited by Epirot; 08-19-2011, 09:28 AM.
                    IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                    Comment

                    • Bill77
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 4545

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Voltron View Post
                      If we are to consider Ancient Macedonia to be ethnically Greek (which we do)
                      why would Greeks ask a Macedonian to explain how in the world is it possible for him to be Greek when he is a Macedonian?
                      http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        #26
                        Originally posted by cultea View Post
                        1. I agree that you’re actually Macedonian and that you are not Greek. Did I claim that Macedonia’s historical figures are Greek? Which ones? I didn’t mean… you.
                        Do you consider Alexander a historical figure of Macedonia or Greece?
                        So how do you define normality?
                        Everything opposite to the way you two jesters have been behaving here as of late.
                        Uh… OK
                        Do you need some medical attention?
                        I’ve noticed that since most of you are from Australia you’re totally detached from the realities of Macedonia (and occasionally Europe).
                        Half of our relatives live there you fool. Do you know more about Macedonia's realities than them? What realities are you talking about? That false hope of financial gain takes precedence over identity? That they need to compromise on their name to appease Greece? What realities?
                        I’m not a robot and don’t follow any strict rules.
                        You don't have to be a robot to respect the identity and history of another people, or to avoid stupid insinuations.
                        I live in Thessaloniki, so if you have any questions or interests about Greece I think I may be able to answer, inform you or correct you.
                        Yeah I know, you're the stalker from Greece who seems to know Vodenka's every move. How many more Macedonians do you spy on?
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Voltron
                          Banned
                          • Jan 2011
                          • 1362

                          #27
                          [QUOTE]
                          Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                          They do not deserve to be advocated by yourself. They're just a bunch of racists with unlimited hatred against others. They spent all the time on applauding each other stupidity, attacking the identity of others and making fallacious propaganda. Most of them are at their 30-40's, but they are disgrace not of themselves but of their families, friends and their people. All of them live in Western countries and theoretically they should be more open-minded than the rest, but that's not the case. Their racism surpasses even that of right-wing Greek circles. Maybe it sounds a little bit pessimistic but this the truth, whether you like it or not. However, hope dies last. I am sure that sooner or later, the winds of tolerance will come in Greece.
                          Im not advocating them Epirot, you came on here shooting your mouth off. Im just telling you to back up your words. There are a lot of good ppl on AMAC just as there are good ppl here on MTO. We all have are nationalistic sides to us and we should take some of the hard talk with a grain of salt. I know I did. Also, keep in mind that many of those members have been banned and then insulted once they have been outed including myself. That isnt exactly condusive to a warm climate between us.

                          All of their opponents were banned without any warning.
                          Stop lying Epirot. Nobody has ever been banned there that is a fact. I can assure you it will be civil if you decide to show up. Just go over there with your sources and give it a go.

                          Comment

                          • Voltron
                            Banned
                            • Jan 2011
                            • 1362

                            #28
                            [QUOTE]
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            One would have to be blind to suggest that everybody agrees with each other on this forum. Furthermore, one would have to be completely stupid if they think they can taint and negate the history of the Macedonian people and then try to claim it as difference in opinion. We don't need you to tell us the opinion of Greek chauvinists and racists. The internet is full of them, and their opinions, which are largely based on delusion, are unfortunately over-represented. This is a Macedonian forum, in case that fact slipped your mind. We are countering Greek racism, not providing it a platform. Everytime you or that 100-time recycled moron Cultea blabber on about the Macedonians and/or their history being Greek, is an insult to the Macedonian people. Keep pretending to be dumb, Voltron.
                            Fair enough SOM, but keep in mind that raising the racist and chauvanist card each time is getting old. I know where I am at and is the reason why I decided to take a break for a while.

                            That's great. Tell you're buddies at moron.com about it, you know, the one's who think you've 'capitulated' because you were able to call us Macedonians without having a nervous breakdown. Racist scum.
                            My buddies arent racists and neither are them over at AMAC. Its as if you are expecting us to accept your version of Macedonian history and if we dont you pull out the race card. Its just plain wrong and you use it often. That said, I respect your opinion and the way you feel. I sincerely think we can sit down a pound a few beers as if nothing happened, but at the end of the day we have our positions we feel strongly about. Anyway take care and seriously chill out. Im sure this will blow over within a few years.

                            Comment

                            • Epirot
                              Member
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 399

                              #29
                              [QUOTE=Voltron;108063]

                              Im not advocating them Epirot, you came on here shooting your mouth off. Im just telling you to back up your words. There are a lot of good ppl on AMAC just as there are good ppl here on MTO. We all have are nationalistic sides to us and we should take some of the hard talk with a grain of salt.
                              Time is so scant as it would be a sin to waste it speaking for some gimps. Their nationalism does not bother me at all: but their racism is turned into something very normal for them. They do deny the identity of others, distort the history as to fit to their national ambitions, behave like racists, etc. I could find until know any good people on 'AMAC' who respect the rights of other nations.

                              Stop lying Epirot. Nobody has ever been banned there that is a fact. I can assure you it will be civil if you decide to show up. Just go over there with your sources and give it a go
                              Why would I go into a swamp?! A wise proverb says: "Never wrestle with a pig in the mud—you get dirty and the pig likes it”. "AMAC" members may love wallowing in the mud and dirt but I do not. I am pretty sure that all of them often do browse the pages of MTO, so that's why I post my sources right here.
                              Last edited by Epirot; 08-19-2011, 02:33 PM.
                              IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                              Comment

                              • George S.
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 10116

                                #30
                                Voltron & cultea the macedonian ethnos was different to the greek ethnos.We are talking a different race of people.You are drawing a long bow by claiming falsely that the two are related.How could that be the greeks hated the macedonians & they wouldn't support the macedonians in their fight against the persians.The modern greek has absolutely no comnnection with the ancient macedonians ,they don't even connect with the ancient greeks.Your not going to get sympathy on these forums if you claim that BS.
                                Just remember your stupid behaviour what alexander said when fighting the persians he typically excluded greeks out of the fighting force what little there was & only had macedonians fighting the persians.So you can't say that it's greek glory it's macedonian only.So when some of you say that the greeks & macedonians are the same race of people you are really walking on really thin ice.Behave or your out.You should at least give us the common curtesy of showing some respect.
                                Last edited by George S.; 08-19-2011, 05:11 PM. Reason: ed
                                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                                GOTSE DELCEV

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