Your Opinion - What % is the Greek component of modern Greeks?

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

What was the main force behind the attempts of Hellenization of Macedonia in the 19th century? It was the HELLENIZED VLACHS. What was the other main force? It was the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople which official language was Greek. 10 centuries before the same thing happened, Hellenized population with the help of the Byzantine/Orthodox Church tried to Hellenize the colonists.

Vlachs and the Patriarch, We will talk more about them.
What's your opinion on Vlachs ?

Firstly, the Slavs didn't `linguify` anything, it was the other way around. Germany and Austria are countries which population is Slavic in ancestry to a big extent. The same goes for Greece.

So your disputing that half of the European continent speaks Slav based languages. Did I read that correctly ?

If by `Greeks` you mean the ones who carried `real Hellenic blood` then it is highly unlikely that such people existed at 6th century AD. All of them were incorporated in the Roman empire, the Greeks absorbed the Thracians and Illirians hence contributing to an even further mixture of `Hellenic` with `barbarian` blood! Add the plagues and the depopulation that occurred in the area etc. As i said highly unlikely.

What is real Hellenic blood ? What makes it unlikely that by 6th AD we were gone ? I wont bother going into pre 6th AD discussion about Greeks.

It's scattered among tens of modern ethnicities, who mostly live on the Balkans. It's no surprise that the researches show that the ethnicities on the Balkans are very similar when genetics is concerned.

Agreed, I dont buy into genetics anyway but this I can agree with.

Cut the bullshit. USA is segregated on racial, ethnic and social grounds. Mexicans live in one side of town, blacks in another, whites in another!! You have Chinatown, Little Italy etc. You also have neighborhoods where they all are intermingled, but you had that in Ottoman or Byzantine Empire.

Do you live in the US ? I find it odd you telling me how it is in the USA.
Your describing Ghettos.

Orfej, just to let you know. If you want to be condescending or cynical in this discussion dont bother replying to me. Not worth the time.

[Voltron]

Voltron,

You seem like a decent Greek Guy or Girl compared to many other Greeks that have previously came and gone, which is why iv'e let you be till now. But i must pull you up on this one. Your recent posts seem to be hypocritical (which i will bring up shortly) and its a common weak argument used by Greeks all the time. Its regarding Language used by People itself identifies their ethnicity which is a common belief by Greeks in-particular when it relates to Ancient times.

You on the other hand,can't seem to make up your mind and have used both sides of the argument with in 1 post or two.

Tell me, for the sake of clarity and the sake of documenting your stance for future reference, where do you stand on this issue?

Does Language itself used by people identify their ethnicity?

Language itself is not a strong arguement. However that changes when you have Language, Location and Culture. What do you mean by not making up my mind ?

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

You have absolutely no idea what you talking about. As much as you speak in here, your false mentality formed by usual Greek propaganda becomes more and more evident. The difference between the lives of people in Ottoman empire and USA is like night and day.

I agree, the difference is night and day. America has accomplished more in its 235 yrs of existance than the Ottomans in its 600 + yrs.

In ottoman era, there was absolutely no ghettos, no separated districts for different ethnic groups or religions, nowhere in 3 continent. Everyone lived together, side by side. You can see that in Turkey with your own eyes. Some 19th century houses are still intact in Izmir, Istanbul and some parts of Anatolia and there are about 5mt distance between a Greek, Turkish, Jewish and Armenian owned homes, all mixed together. My father used to tell me that he was getting candies from their Jewish neighbors living in the next house because they were calling him when he was a kid and let him fire the oven or use electricity in sabbath days. That was 1940s in Izmir. Also, you can see 300-500 year old orthodox church, mosque and a synagogue in Izmir, Istanbul, Antakya (Antioch?) etc. with 100-200mt distance between them.

Who mentioned the Ghettos ? I think you replying to the wrong person.

Didn't you watch the documentary called 1821 in Greek tv? I heard that in some parts of the documentary, it shows archeologists who discovered a big graveyard in central Greece dated from 17-18th century and most surprisingly, there was christians and muslims buried side by side in same graveyard.

No, I saw a couple clips but its mostly liberal garbage. As far as the cemetary, you should let you fellow muslims here know about that. That way we wont have to use taxpayer money to create a muslim cemetary.

[George S.]

voltron you are hesitant at admitting things as if you are denying it.We won't bite yor head if you admit to some things that are obvious.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Actually, I do in fact refer to them as Arvanites in such conversations, but I highlight that they belong to the same ethno-linguistic group as the Albanians. They are the same people, Voltron, consider the Greeks of mainland Greece and those around the Black Sea (or at least those in that area that are native Greek-speakers and not 'Greek' by religious persuasion) as a perfect example to cite in comparison. If Russians, Romanians, Bulgars or Turks claimed that those Greeks are different to the mainland Greeks in the way you're trying portray the Albanians and Arvanites, they would be laughed at. The overwhelming majority of today's Greeks simply do not know the truth about their origin as a modern nation, and that's a fact. They get together on the 25th of March each year, ignorant of what actually transpired, and unaware of who the main characters were (or what they were, for that matter).

SOM, the difference here is that the Arvanties self identify this way. Same thing goes for Bosnians for example. Aside from what me and you know about them. Thats all im saying. Again, the fact that most Greeks dont pay attention to the details is because there is no need to. No Arvanties ever raised any objection as to how the Indepence movement is portrayed here. Ive been here over a decade and I have yet to see or come across anyone that dwells on such trivial matters. No one cares.

Voltron, I have enjoyed our recent discussions, but don't insult my intelligence or my personal experiences. I come from Melbourne, where the largest Macedonian and Greek populations outside of our capital cities reside. I have several friends and associates that are Greek, some of them are top blokes, but none of them would accept (or even know) that their first president was an Albanian (or Arvanites, whatever, they speak a native tongue that is foreign to Greek) who couldn't speak Greek, that the main figures in the war for independence were Albanians, that their national costume is the Albanian one, etc. Dare I say, Greek perceptions about Albanians are generally not too good. You can wrap them in an Arvanite cloth, but at the end of the day, they are as foreign to you as they are to Macedonians or Turks.

There is a negative perception about Albanians due to the fact that during the 90's many of them came to Greece. They brought with them their criminal ways and habits. Greeks were used to leaving windows and doors open, then all of a sudden we encountered a shock with their arrival. Theft was widespread along with other negative implications. I know it sounds stereotypical but its the truth. That also has a great deal to do with the negative Albanian perception.

I for one do not hold such issues with importance. Again, I couldnt care less if a fustanella was Albanian origin. At the end of the day its a garment that hardly can be copyrighted. You can go back to Antiquity and find men with a garment wrapped around their waists. Again, if we had "Albanian" origin patriots in our movement so what ? This goes into the issue of identity and this is the reason why you receive the feedback you do.

Most Greeks on the internet say that, but most Greeks in real life would cringe if they saw an individual who they assumed as a Greek all their lives, talking Albanian to one of his buddies from Tirana or Ioannina. A significant portion of Greeks are racist against other ethnicities and cultures (particularly those that surround them geographically), that is a result of the racist policies promoted by successive Greek governments. The general population is not to blame for this, after all, they take direction for hate from their leaders and politicians.

No, not true. I live here and we have Albanians talking openly and not shying away from who they are. Greeks dont mind anymore, today we have a major problem with Pakis, Kurds, Bangladeshi, ect. As a matter of fact Greeks and Albanians have been known to try and push these immigrants away from their neighborhoods. Its ironic how once enemies, are now united against the Asian element here. Also, I only wish our government was as stong as some say it is.

Come again? Can you elaborate on that point and tell me what fabric you're dissecting by denying the true history of your independence?

When people are comfortable with who they are, than there is no reason to try and segregate them from society. There is no purpose to it.

If it doesn't matter, why does your government refuse to promote factual information? The Albanians/Arvanites are different from the Greeks, linguistically, ethnically and historically. Don't all of the fighters from the war of independence who couldn't even speak Greek deserve to be portrayed as what they were? Shouldn't Greeks know the truth about their origins as a modern nation? The type of 'unity' that you're talking about is artificial consolidation and not based on common origin, language, culture, etc. This is why over half of Greece's population have grandparents that speak/spoke another language.

Educated people well versed in history know the facts. Most people never really thought about it or dont care altogether about the "details". Same thing applies to Turks, only if you ask them the ethnic composition of the likes of Sinan, Mehment or Ataturk. Most times they will just say they were Turks.

If 200 years from now Albanians, Vlachs adopt Macedonian language, religion name their kids Macedonian names. Celebrate traditions and fight your battles. Will you tell them at the end of the day they are not Macedonian ? Again, this is an issue of identity. Just want to put things in perspective.

[Voltron]

voltron you are hesitant at admitting things as if you are denying it.We won't bite yor head if you admit to some things that are obvious.

Dont worry George, We're just having a discussion. I dont think many opinions will change as a result of it.

[Bill77]

What do you mean by not making up my mind ?

Well you are sending mixed messages, for an example,

Regardless to say they are not Turks but infact Greeks. Their is linguistic evidence to support this.

Here you are clearly using "linguistics" as evidence someone is not a Turk, rather a Greek.

I think you are trying to make the same attempt below (using Language as evidence to justify a point),

Fallemeyer assessment doesnt account for how Greek language prevailed. How did they become Hellenized if there were no Hellenes present ? The Slavs were able " linguify " half of Europe yet in Greece the opposite occurred. There presence wasnt strong enough to force the change as they did in other areas.

And then when Orfej mentions "That's why Karakasidou's father( as i recall right?) who was a Turkish speaking `Greek` turned the Istanbul ratio every day and sang Turkish songs? Do Greeks do that very often?"

You find this a bitter pill to swallow and come up with,

That dont mean much, we all sing English songs.

Now all of a sudden, this linguistic evidence (Karakasidou sung Turkish songs on radio) does not mean much.

By the way, I think it was Professor ERNST BADIAN that said "Language used by people does not by itself identify their ethnicity. We communicate in English and we all come from different backgrounds" Its very similar to your above quote. And boy do Greeks despise Badian for hitting the nail on the head.

Language itself is not a strong arguement. However that changes when you have Language, Location and Culture.

LANGUAGE Well modern Greeks have something that resembles the past spoken language. Although the majority in your country at one stage, had to be taught because it wasn't something they inherited from ancestors.

LOCATION Well that alone also can be argued against as a criteria for someone belonging to a ethnicity. The Albanians born and living all their lives in Macedonia does not make them Ethnic Macedonians even if they speak Macedonian which now covers two of your criterias. Or would you dispute this?

CULTURE This is one important criteria that defines someones ethnicity. But what culture are you talking about in relation to Modern Greece?

So by your own admission, it is tough to argue anything that favors the Greek side.

[Onur]

Bill77, he is already lying about having linguistic evidence about Turkish speaking christians. According to findings from several sources like Karakashidou, about ~400.000 people from Anatolia gone to Greece without even knowing single Greek word and the rest was speaking Romaika, half Turkish, half Greek language. I saw several books, documents written by them and bibles published by Istanbul patriarchy, specifically for Turkish christians and they were speaking exact same dialect as other central Anatolian Turks. They forcibly hellenized their kids and elder ones virtually locked up in homes in rural sides of Aegean Macedonia because they couldn't speak Greek. Most of them already settled in abandoned villages by the Turks in Aegean Macedonia.

Read this;

Oldest Karamanli misses home

The last surviving Karamanli says he misses his friends and his village back in Kayseri, and that he is proud to share his hometown with the Turkish president.

The last surviving Karamanli, or Karamanlides in Greek, 98-year-old Stavros Farasopulos, says he misses his friends and his village back in Kayseri, and that he is proud to share his hometown with Turkish President Abdullah Gül.

Farasopulos was born in the village of Ağırnas in the eastern province of Kayseri in 1911 as a member of the local Karamanli community. Karamanli was a Greek Orthodox Christian community whose first language was Turkish written in the Greek alphabet and lived mainly in Kayseri’s Cappadocia region. Their name drives from the Karamanoğulları state that was based there before the growing Ottoman Empire annexed it in the mid-15th century.

The Karamanli community had to leave Turkey during the compulsory population exchange between Greece and Turkey in 1923 when transfer was solely based on religion, even though the Karamanlis’ first language was Turkish and most didn’t speak a word of Greek.

Farasopulos said he has missed his Turkish friends and his hometown since leaving it in 1924. He currently lives in Western Thrace, where his home is full of photos of Kayseri and one featuring President Abdullah Gül.

Among the mementos he keeps are letters dating back to when his family lived in Kayseri, letters in Turkish but written in the Greek alphabet.

Farasopulos’s eldest son, Nikos, speaks fluent Turkish. “My father brought me up as a proper Karamanli,” said Nikos.

When asked about his life in Ağırnas before 1922, Stavros Farasopulos said: “My best friends were Enver and Niyazi. Turkish was my mother tongue.”

Farasopulos then started talking about the period after World War I when Greece invaded Turkey.

“At that time, Greeks and Turks killed each other, but in my hometown nothing happened. That was because there was nothing that separated Turks from Greeks. During Turkey’s Independence War [1919-1922] I seldom saw a Turkish soldier in my village,” he said.

“I know my Kayseri and the Karamanlis. Turks, Greeks and Armenians are the same.”

Farasopulos said when he and his family first arrived in Greece he was discriminated against because the only language he could speak was Turkish.

Years later, in the 1960s, a friend from back in his village, Turan, came to visit Farasopulos in Greece. The first time Farasopulos went to his village after 1924 was in 1970. “When I went there in 1970, I was welcomed with open arms. I stayed there for two months. I didn’t want to leave. They later rebuilt the Ayi Anargri Church in the village. I thanked the mayor,” he said.

The last time he visited Ağırnas was in 2000. “I have grown old. I really want to visit my hometown but how can I?” he asked, citing his age.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=oldest-karamanli-misses-home-2009-08-03

Ironic thing about population exchange is; both linguistically and ethnically most Greek ones, the Greeks of Istanbul was exempted from exchange but various Romaika speakers, Laz, Georgians and Turkish christians gone there. Btw, in Lousanne treaty, Greek authorities was perfectly aware about these Turkish christians and they were exempted from exchange at first but in the last day of the treaty negotiations, Venizelos and his British companions did pressure to convince Turkey to include them for the exchange. The reason was simple, if Turkish christians would stay in Turkey, their own patriarchy (formed in 1919 after Greeks invaded Turkey. Turkish christians abandoned Istanbul Greek patriarchy and formed their own after Greek invasion) would be most populous christians of Turkey and 1000 year old Greek patriarchy would be totally obsolete.


But i wont argue about this with Voltron cuz he is like medieval era people who refused accepting the fact that earth is not flat. He is such an hopeless case.

[makedonin]

Voltron in the post here I elaborated on the assimilation as follow, the same assimilation that you love to use as if it is a surgical clean cut and you gave the comment that you like some examples:

That is what really happened, the customs, the habits that people had were only renamed, slightly adapted, but in it's basics they did not abandoned their culture and traditions, nor did they surgically operated their brains and replaced the "Slavic" part with "Greek" part.

This can be easily proven.

I doubt it can be easily proven. List some examples.

Here in the other thread Onur has posted this video:

YouTube - Whose song is this ? Cia e tazi pesen ? Cija je ovo pesma?TRAILER

How comes that the Song became original Greek song?

By renaming it as such, maybe decorating it with Greek text, but on the end it ain't more Greek than that is Macedonian, Serb or Bulgarian.

I see Onur has posted about the Karamanli. Go here and read about their alleged Greekness the pages from the Book posted there.

How come that the Karamanli are now Proud "Greek Macedonians" that have cultural uninterrupted continuity of about 5000 years in the Region.

Do you care to elaborate on that a bit?

I doubt it you can....

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Well you are sending mixed messages, for an example,

Here you are clearly using "linguistics" as evidence someone is not a Turk, rather a Greek.

I think you are trying to make the same attempt below (using Language as evidence to justify a point),



And then when Orfej mentions "That's why Karakasidou's father( as i recall right?) who was a Turkish speaking `Greek` turned the Istanbul ratio every day and sang Turkish songs? Do Greeks do that very often?"

You find this a bitter pill to swallow and come up with,

Now all of a sudden, this linguistic evidence (Karakasidou sung Turkish songs on radio) does not mean much.

By the way, I think it was Professor ERNST BADIAN that said "Language used by people does not by itself identify their ethnicity. We communicate in English and we all come from different backgrounds" Its very similar to your above quote. And boy do Greeks despise Badian for hitting the nail on the head.

Bill, there is two major differences though.
First one: I was born and raised in the US. But I am from Greek Background. I listen to American Radio Stations. Karakasidou example
Second: A community of people that have a unique language that can be used to illistrate their ethnic backgroud.

Now, Im not an anthropologist but I would imagine language plays some role in providing clues of what ethnicity groups of people are.

LANGUAGE Well modern Greeks have something that resembles the past spoken language. Although the majority in your country at one stage, had to be taught because it wasn't something they inherited from ancestors.

Something that resembles the past spoken language ? Do you know any Greek ?

LOCATION Well that alone also can be argued against as a criteria for someone belonging to a ethnicity. The Albanians born and living all their lives in Macedonia does not make them Ethnic Macedonians even if they speak Macedonian which now covers two of your criterias. Or would you dispute this?

I dont dispute this, but when you say they are Ethnic Albanians then its full stop. However, If they completed assimilated to your ethnos during a 200 year period would you still say they are Albanian ? There in lies the identitiy queston again. That said if they didnt assimilate than they would still be Albanians.

CULTURE This is one important criteria that defines someones ethnicity. But what culture are you talking about in relation to Modern Greece?

Continuation of traditions from the past.

So by your own admission, it is tough to argue anything that favors the Greek side.

How does it favor against anybody else in the Balkans ? Or does this line of thinking just apply to Greeks ?

[Voltron]

Voltron in the post here I elaborated on the assimilation as follow, the same assimilation that you love to use as if it is a surgical clean cut and you gave the comment that you like some examples:
Here in the other thread Onur has posted this video:

YouTube - Whose song is this ? Cia e tazi pesen ? Cija je ovo pesma?TRAILER

How comes that the Song became original Greek song?

By renaming it as such, maybe decorating it with Greek text, but on the end it ain't more Greek than that is Macedonian, Serb or Bulgarian.

I see Onur has posted about the Karamanli. Go here and read about their alleged Greekness the pages from the Book posted there.

How come that the Karamanli are now Proud "Greek Macedonians" that have cultural uninterrupted continuity of about 5000 years in the Region.

Do you care to elaborate on that a bit?

I doubt it you can....

Its pretty rich hearing half the stuff coming from Onur and to be honest I cant waste my time with him anymore. Now if you want to believe him than thats fine with me.

So, you want me to listen to a Turkish song in Greek ? Greek music is played in Turkey and Israel, what is this supposed to imply ?
The Karamanli is a specific group of Greeks from a specific area in Turkey. Makedonin, when our friend Onur posted the Romaica language to show me how "unintelligible " it was, I was able to read it. The language in fact is more " purer " in some ways in comparison to how we speak Greek today. If you are intersted in them, pls read up on them a little. Maybe you wont be so biased.

[makedonin]

So, you want me to listen to a Turkish song in Greek ? Greek music is played in Turkey and Israel, what is this supposed to imply ?

It is one thing to play music from other countries, it is another thing to claim it as being the originator of the song.

I hope you can comprehend the difference.

The video shows exactly what I said about assimilation, that is, by renaming it Greek you can claim it as such, although the cultural element is originating from another Ethnic group.

Examples are many, here is something that is represented as collection of "Greek Macedonian" folklore under the well known Greek pretext.
They call it Greek and avoid the lyrics not to give away the origin of the song. However the songs played here definitely originate from us the Macedonians and are played on every Macedonian wedding in R. of Macedonia as well, with one significant difference, they have lyrics and names:
1. song - Ne si go prodavaj Koljo chiflikot
2. song - Domakjine dobri gosti ti dojdoja

YouTube - Macedonian music in Greece


Enjoy your denial...

As for the Karamanlis, hey most of them could not even speak Romaika, and you would have at least know this from the link I posted you to read. But it does not really matter. It ain't in your interest, so it does not makes much sense to talk to you any ways....

[Voltron]

It is one thing to play music from other countries, it is another thing to claim it as being the originator of the song.

I hope you can comprehend the difference.

The video shows exactly what I said about assimilation, that is, by renaming it Greek you can claim it as such, although the cultural element is originating from another Ethnic group.

Examples are many, here is something that is represented as collection of "Greek Macedonian" folklore under the well known Greek pretext.
They call it Greek and avoid the lyrics not to give away the origin of the song. However the songs played here are played on every Macedonian wedding in R. of Macedonia as well, with one significant difference, they have lyrics and names:
1. song - Ne si go prodavaj Koljo chiflikot
2. song - Domakjine dobri gosti ti dojdoja

Enjoy your denial.

What you describe is something different. I wouldnt say its assimilation just because they have a Macedonian song they claim their own. Like thats a first in the Balkans.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/assimilation

As for the Karamanlis, hey most of them could not even speak Romaika, and you would have at least know this from the link I posted you to read. But it does not really matter. It ain't in your interest, so it does not makes much sense to talk to you any ways....

Nevermind, I saw the link and the thread it goes to. You're right it doesnt interest me.

[Voltron]

http://agema-makedonin.blogspot.com/2008/11/karamanlis-proud-macedonian.html

I just saw this link in the last page. You should really underline your links. I thought the one you were referring to was the thread created in the General Discussion section. Il give it a read later.

[Daskalot]

Continuation of traditions from the past.

Which traditions that you practice today are the same ones as the ones practised by the various tribes living in the Ancient City states?
Please give us some examples.