Your Opinion - What % is the Greek component of modern Greeks?

[Daskalot]

How does Megali Vlachia(Great Wallachia) fit into all this?

[Voltron]

How does Megali Vlachia(Great Wallachia) fit into all this?

Ok, lets discuss Vlachs. An interesting bunch.
Il give it a go later on. If you want to start something on them pls do.

[Jankovska]

5% me thinks?

[Voltron]

Here is what they about themselves. Seems as if they dont want to be recognized as anything different.
Now since we are not talking about " identity " I would like to get a starting point going here.
Since they are indeed a large group of Latinised peoples can we agree that they are indeed remnants of the Roman Empire ?
Including and not limited to " Greeks, Romans, Illyrians, Thracians " ?

PROTEST RESOLUTION BY 31 VLACH MAYORS AND COMMUNE PRESIDENTS AGAINST STATE DEPARTMENT REPORT

Thessaloniki, 28 February 2001 | MPA

The recently issued U.S. State Department report provoked a vehement reaction from 31 Vlachophone mayors and presidents of mountain communes in Greece. A resolution passed today by the mayors and community presidents cites the following:

■Concerning the recent report by the American State Department on our country, we the undersigned Mayors and Commune Presidents, as elected representatives of the Local Government Organization, state that:

■1st We protest the direct or indirect characterization of Vlachophone Greeks (Vlachs) as a national, linguistic or other minority.

■2nd We declare that we ourselves, the Vlachophone Greeks, have never requested to be recognized by our country as a minority because we have always been a historically and politically integral part of the Hellenic nation.

■3rd The existence and use of a second linguistic idiom, the consequence of a protracted Greco-Roman cultural tradition on mainland Greece, does not constitute a reason to characterize it as a minority language with the familiar political and other repercussions this entails.

■4th We condemn any and all exploitation of a purely cultural element for political purposes or other motives, and its conversion into a factor to ethnically or otherwise differentiate the Vlachophone Greeks.

■5th We express our displeasure and question forthwith the data upon which the authors of this report have based their findings, and challenge them to produce this documentation.

■6th We categorically declare that we will act as a body to oppose whomever intentionally misinforms and misrepresents the historical and current facts concerning the collective national identity of Vlachophone Greeks.

This protest resolution has been forwarded to the United States State Department and communicated to the President of the Hellenic Republic, the Speaker of Parliament, the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Official Opposition, Political Party Leaders, and the Council of Europe, and is signed by the following Mayors and Commune Presidents.

[Orfej]

[

I see you have a problem with the Chronicle of Monemvasia. Do you know thats one of the articles Fallemeyer based his findings on

Fallmerayer used the chronicle to prove that the Hellenes disappeared while you use it to prove the opposite. You see the irony?

Yes I agree and I stated it is controversial.

For the sake of the debate lets assume we accept it as the most reliable document. It still refers only to a point in time, around 200 years. The Chronicle itself speaks about the huge impact that the Slavs and Avars had on the ethnic composition in Greece during those 200 years. It does not however speak about who infact were those `Greeks` that were not conquered(in Thessaloniki or Athens). Did the original Hellenes managed to stay pure in the last 8 centuries( from 2 BC up to 6 AD)? I really doubt it. In fact we may have a situation where already Hellenized people are Hellenizing others(Slavs and Avars). It's not uncommon since we know that Hellenized Vlachs were one of the biggest promoters of Hellenism in Macedonia in the 19th and 20th century. And what does the Chronicle of Monemvasia say for the period from the 8th century and after? Nothing. It doesn't tell us that the city of Thessaloniki( `the cradle of Hellenism`) was almost totally destroyed and it's population taken as slaves in 904, after it's conquest by the Arab pirates! It also doesn't tell us that Athens( `the other cradle of Hellenism`) was nothing but an Albanian village for centuries until the philhellens decided to bring it's glory back.

You see if you want to understand what happened to the Hellenes, you need to look at all the events through history, not just the Slavic invasion or the Albanian settlement.

Did you read Peter Charanis book link I posted ?
You should, its not that long and maybe you can point out parts which you disagree with.

I did read it! Charanis is a Greek historian, so we can't expect him to say that the Ancient Greeks disappeared a long time ago now can't we?
As for the parts i disagree i would leave it for some other time.
I would just note that Charanis himself falls into a trap. He claims that

''Fallmerayer's statement that there is no real Hellenic
blood in the veiins of the modern Greeks cannot, therefore, be accepted''

.

This claim is based on the fact that Thessaloniki and some other cities were not sacked and did not fall under Slavic or Avar rule, even though as he acknowledges most of Greece did fell. But Fallmerayer never claimed that Thessaloniki was lost in the Slavic invasion. What he claimed was that the Slavic invasion had such an impact on the genetic make up of the Greeks that they for him were no longer Greeks. The little blood that remained Greek he notes, was gone after the big plagues that hit Greece and the Albanian colonization that happened after. He was perfectly aware of the use of Thessaloniki as a center for Hellenizing the Slavs and others in the latter centuries. That's why in the 19th century he noted that the Grecophone population in Greece is nothing more then Hellenized Slavs and others

Also, you using empires as some sort of apocolyptic ending is strange. What does the fact we had Empires in our land have to do with the ceasing of our existance ?

We are speaking about multicultural and multiethnic empires! Look at USA for example. If you ask a person about his ancestry, he will tell you that he descents from 10 different ethnicities. The same went for the Byzantine and Ottoman Empire, more or less.

I think you should do a little more searching regarding these "Turkish Greeks". Also they may have had a greater impact in Macedonia but not on the general population. Regardless to say they are not Turks but infact Greeks. Their is linguistic evidence to support this.

That's why Karakasidou's father( as i recall right?) who was a Turkish speaking `Greek` turned the Istanbul ratio every day and sang Turkish songs? Do Greeks do that very often?

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

[
Fallmerayer used the chronicle to prove that the Hellenes disappeared while you use it to prove the opposite. You see the irony?

I wouldnt say its irony, just a different interpretation of the Chronicle. Fallemeyer assessment doesnt account for how Greek language prevailed. How did they become Hellenized if there were no Hellenes present ? The Slavs were able " linguify " half of Europe yet in Greece the opposite occurred. There presence wasnt strong enough to force the change as they did in other areas.

For the sake of the debate lets assume we accept it as the most reliable document. It still refers only to a point in time, around 200 years. The Chronicle itself speaks about the huge impact that the Slavs and Avars had on the ethnic composition in Greece during those 200 years.

Nowhere does it say an impact on ethnic composition. What it says is about displacement and demographic change. It also mentions the restoration of the original inhabitants to their homes.

It does not however speak about who infact were those `Greeks` that were not conquered(in Thessaloniki or Athens). Did the original Hellenes managed to stay pure in the last 8 centuries( from 2 BC up to 6 AD)? I really doubt it. In fact we may have a situation where already Hellenized people are Hellenizing others(Slavs and Avars). It's not uncommon since we know that Hellenized Vlachs were one of the biggest promoters of Hellenism in Macedonia in the 19th and 20th century. And what does the Chronicle of Monemvasia say for the period from the 8th century and after? Nothing. It doesn't tell us that the city of Thessaloniki( `the cradle of Hellenism`) was almost totally destroyed and it's population taken as slaves in 904, after it's conquest by the Arab pirates! It also doesn't tell us that Athens( `the other cradle of Hellenism`) was nothing but an Albanian village for centuries until the philhellens decided to bring it's glory back.

Are you saying that by 6AD there were no Greeks left ?
We can look to other sources that describe the periods you mentioned.
I will try to post a few for those centuries. I already touched on the Arvanite factor, and the Vlachs is also an interesting subject.

You see if you want to understand what happened to the Hellenes, you need to look at all the events through history, not just the Slavic invasion or the Albanian settlement.

Absolutly, I was going in order.

I did read it! Charanis is a Greek historian, so we can't expect him to say that the Ancient Greeks disappeared a long time ago now can't we?
As for the parts i disagree i would leave it for some other time.
I would just note that Charanis himself falls into a trap. He claims that .

This claim is based on the fact that Thessaloniki and some other cities were not sacked and did not fall under Slavic or Avar rule, even though as he acknowledges most of Greece did fell. But Fallmerayer never claimed that Thessaloniki was lost in the Slavic invasion. What he claimed was that the Slavic invasion had such an impact on the genetic make up of the Greeks that they for him were no longer Greeks. The little blood that remained Greek he notes, was gone after the big plagues that hit Greece and the Albanian colonization that happened after. He was perfectly aware of the use of Thessaloniki as a center for Hellenizing the Slavs and others in the latter centuries. That's why in the 19th century he noted that the Grecophone population in Greece is nothing more then Hellenized Slavs and others

The Slavic impact was not enough to alter the Greeks. No doubt they had an impact just not enough to wipe the Greek genepool off the map.
Albanian colonization was a reality, but in far fewer numbers. And then we have the Vlachs, they are indeed the most intersting of the three.
I kind of see them as the "Joker" card in a deck.

We are speaking about multicultural and multiethnic empires! Look at USA for example. If you ask a person about his ancestry, he will tell you that he descents from 10 different ethnicities. The same went for the Byzantine and Ottoman Empire, more or less.

There is a difference though, In the USA you can purchase a house wherever you want and end up in a neighborhood where the only thing common is being an American. Multiethnic Empires were not like this. I dont think you had a Greek, Armenian, Turk, Slav living on the same block a house away. Even in the US during the 60's - 70's you had Greektown, Chinatown, ect. Ethnic groups living together. How much more likely thats how it was during Byzantine, Ottoman Empire ? Yes they both were Multi-ethnic but in an Apartheid kind of way.

That's why Karakasidou's father( as i recall right?) who was a Turkish speaking `Greek` turned the Istanbul ratio every day and sang Turkish songs? Do Greeks do that very often?

That dont mean much, we all sing English songs.

[Orfej]

I wouldnt say its irony, just a different interpretation of the Chronicle.

It's like two people looking outside of the same window at the same time and one of them says that it's day, while the other says it's night. Very interesting!

Fallemeyer assessment doesnt account for how Greek language prevailed.

Learn to spell his name correctly! He is an important figure in your history, forcing your historians to dig deep into the land of myths to find a connection between you and the Ancient Greeks.

How did they become Hellenized if there were no Hellenes present ?

What was the main force behind the attempts of Hellenization of Macedonia in the 19th century? It was the HELLENIZED VLACHS. What was the other main force? It was the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople which official language was Greek. 10 centuries before the same thing happened, Hellenized population with the help of the Byzantine/Orthodox Church tried to Hellenize the colonists.

The Slavs were able " linguify " half of Europe yet in Greece the opposite occurred.

Firstly, the Slavs didn't `linguify` anything, it was the other way around. Germany and Austria are countries which population is Slavic in ancestry to a big extent. The same goes for Greece.

Nowhere does it say an impact on ethnic composition. What it says is about displacement and demographic change. It also mentions the restoration of the original inhabitants to their homes.

Smarti, when a demographic change occurs in which hundreds of thousands of Slavs and Avars colonize the land, it's an impact on the ethnic composition.

Are you saying that by 6AD there were no Greeks left ?
We can look to other sources that describe the periods you mentioned.
I will try to post a few for those centuries. I already touched on the Arvanite factor, and the Vlachs is also an interesting subject.

If by `Greeks` you mean the ones who carried `real Hellenic blood` then it is highly unlikely that such people existed at 6th century AD. All of them were incorporated in the Roman empire, the Greeks absorbed the Thracians and Illirians hence contributing to an even further mixture of `Hellenic` with `barbarian` blood! Add the plagues and the depopulation that occurred in the area etc. As i said highly unlikely.

The Slavic impact was not enough to alter the Greeks. No doubt they had an impact just not enough to wipe the Greek genepool off the map.

There's no such thing as a Greek genepool anymore. It's scattered among tens of modern ethnicities, who mostly live on the Balkans. It's no surprise that the researches show that the ethnicities on the Balkans are very similar when genetics is concerned.

There is a difference though, In the USA you can purchase a house wherever you want and end up in a neighborhood where the only thing common is being an American. Multiethnic Empires were not like this. I dont think you had a Greek, Armenian, Turk, Slav living on the same block a house away. Even in the US during the 60's - 70's you had Greektown, Chinatown, ect. Ethnic groups living together.Multiethnic Empires were not like this. I dont think you had a Greek, Armenian, Turk, Slav living on the same block a house away. Even in the US during the 60's - 70's you had Greektown, Chinatown, ect. Ethnic groups living together.

Cut the bullshit. USA is segregated on racial, ethnic and social grounds. Mexicans live in one side of town, blacks in another, whites in another!! You have Chinatown, Little Italy etc. You also have neighborhoods where they all are intermingled, but you had that in Ottoman or Byzantine Empire.

In fact i think USA is a great comparison to the Byzantine Empire. You have Americans/Romioi who speak English/Greek, yet their identity is not English/Greek, it's different. They are a separate nation. In them besides Americans/Romioi there are a lot of different people: Mexicans,Chinese,Indians / Slavs,Armenians,Bulgars who are not yet emancipated and the nation is very suspicious towards them. The country tries to teach them their way of living( learn English/Greek and in the case of Byzantium, become an orthodox Christian). More or less these empires were mostly successful in their attempts of Americanization/Hellenization. The outcome is that in in these Empires you have people from different origin who become a very prominent figures despite their origin, for example Obama / tons of Armenian kings. Yet Obama is not anything less then American and the Armenian kings weren't anything less then Romioi in their identity. These empires simply downgrade the origin of the people. And just like the Americans are mixed, so were the Romioi, besides the fact that they all spoke Greek.

That dont mean much, we all sing English songs.

hahahahahaha... bravo, the idiotic comparison really made me laugh.

[Bill77]

Voltron,

You seem like a decent Greek Guy or Girl compared to many other Greeks that have previously came and gone, which is why iv'e let you be till now. But i must pull you up on this one. Your recent posts seem to be hypocritical (which i will bring up shortly) and its a common weak argument used by Greeks all the time. Its regarding Language used by People itself identifies their ethnicity which is a common belief by Greeks in-particular when it relates to Ancient times.

You on the other hand,can't seem to make up your mind and have used both sides of the argument with in 1 post or two.

Tell me, for the sake of clarity and the sake of documenting your stance for future reference, where do you stand on this issue?

Does Language itself used by people identify their ethnicity?

[Onur]

There is a difference though, In the USA you can purchase a house wherever you want and end up in a neighborhood where the only thing common is being an American. Multiethnic Empires were not like this. I dont think you had a Greek, Armenian, Turk, Slav living on the same block a house away. Even in the US during the 60's - 70's you had Greektown, Chinatown, ect. Ethnic groups living together. How much more likely thats how it was during Byzantine, Ottoman Empire ? Yes they both were Multi-ethnic but in an Apartheid kind of way.

You have absolutely no idea what you talking about. As much as you speak in here, your false mentality formed by usual Greek propaganda becomes more and more evident. The difference between the lives of people in Ottoman empire and USA is like night and day.

In ottoman era, there was absolutely no ghettos, no separated districts for different ethnic groups or religions, nowhere in 3 continent. Everyone lived together, side by side. You can see that in Turkey with your own eyes. Some 19th century houses are still intact in Izmir, Istanbul and some parts of Anatolia and there are about 5mt distance between a Greek, Turkish, Jewish and Armenian owned homes, all mixed together. My father used to tell me that he was getting candies from their Jewish neighbors living in the next house because they were calling him when he was a kid and let him fire the oven or use electricity in sabbath days. That was 1940s in Izmir. Also, you can see 300-500 year old orthodox church, mosque and a synagogue in Izmir, Istanbul, Antakya (Antioch?) etc. with 100-200mt distance between them.


Didn't you watch the documentary called 1821 in Greek tv? I heard that in some parts of the documentary, it shows archeologists who discovered a big graveyard in central Greece dated from 17-18th century and most surprisingly, there was christians and muslims buried side by side in same graveyard.

[Stojacanec]

The problem is certain circles that try to paint everything off as " Lingua Franca, Orthodoxy, Roman, Romaica, ect " in order to minimise anything Greek. I see it all the time.

If we don't adhere to those concepts then the protagonists would deem the number of ethnic greeks to reach 1 billion rather than the 10 - 15 million odd.

[Daskalot]

It's like two people looking outside of the same window at the same time and one of them says that it's day, while the other says it's night. Very interesting!

Orfej, thank you for contributing to this thread. It has been a pleasure to read your posts.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Yes, Il tell you why you came across a dead end when discussing this issue with Greeks. If you would of asked if the Arvanites played a role in the 1820's Im sure you would of received a different response. But when you say Albanians, of course you willl receive some resistance.

Actually, I do in fact refer to them as Arvanites in such conversations, but I highlight that they belong to the same ethno-linguistic group as the Albanians. They are the same people, Voltron, consider the Greeks of mainland Greece and those around the Black Sea (or at least those in that area that are native Greek-speakers and not 'Greek' by religious persuasion) as a perfect example to cite in comparison. If Russians, Romanians, Bulgars or Turks claimed that those Greeks are different to the mainland Greeks in the way you're trying portray the Albanians and Arvanites, they would be laughed at. The overwhelming majority of today's Greeks simply do not know the truth about their origin as a modern nation, and that's a fact. They get together on the 25th of March each year, ignorant of what actually transpired, and unaware of who the main characters were (or what they were, for that matter).

Regarding Koundouriotis, Most people dont think like that.

Voltron, I have enjoyed our recent discussions, but don't insult my intelligence or my personal experiences. I come from Melbourne, where the largest Macedonian and Greek populations outside of our capital cities reside. I have several friends and associates that are Greek, some of them are top blokes, but none of them would accept (or even know) that their first president was an Albanian (or Arvanites, whatever, they speak a native tongue that is foreign to Greek) who couldn't speak Greek, that the main figures in the war for independence were Albanians, that their national costume is the Albanian one, etc. Dare I say, Greek perceptions about Albanians are generally not too good. You can wrap them in an Arvanite cloth, but at the end of the day, they are as foreign to you as they are to Macedonians or Turks.

As long as he is a Patriot and someone that will take the country forward. Most Greeks feel the same. Its ironic how people insist we are racist when every aspect of our lives shows otherwise.

Most Greeks on the internet say that, but most Greeks in real life would cringe if they saw an individual who they assumed as a Greek all their lives, talking Albanian to one of his buddies from Tirana or Ioannina. A significant portion of Greeks are racist against other ethnicities and cultures (particularly those that surround them geographically), that is a result of the racist policies promoted by successive Greek governments. The general population is not to blame for this, after all, they take direction for hate from their leaders and politicians.

Its not about sweeping it under the rug. Its about trying to dissect a fabric of society to justify political correctness.

Come again? Can you elaborate on that point and tell me what fabric you're dissecting by denying the true history of your independence?

What would it matter if a PM was of Albanian origin ? Or if Arvanites/Albanians played a role in our independence ? What purpose would that serve aside from trying to instill division or a sense of being different ?

If it doesn't matter, why does your government refuse to promote factual information? The Albanians/Arvanites are different from the Greeks, linguistically, ethnically and historically. Don't all of the fighters from the war of independence who couldn't even speak Greek deserve to be portrayed as what they were? Shouldn't Greeks know the truth about their origins as a modern nation? The type of 'unity' that you're talking about is artificial consolidation and not based on common origin, language, culture, etc. This is why over half of Greece's population have grandparents that speak/spoke another language.

[George S.]

Orfej welcome to our forum I can see you are enjoying in the debates.

[Soldier of Macedon]

George, Orfej has been a member of the forum for a while now, just doesn't frequently post.

[George S.]

Voltron Vill makes excellent points the least you could do is acknowledge him in what he says is true.So the least you could do is stop the BS & admit to the truth.
Sorry SOM i thoght he was new my apology.