Your Opinion - What % is the Greek component of modern Greeks?

[Voltron]

And why keeping the non Greek name of Florina when Lerin is closer to the olden day name of the town, Chlerinion?

Thats a good one Daskalot.

NameThe city's original Byzantine name, Χλέρινον (Chlérinon, "full of green vegetation"), derives from the Greek word χλωρός (chlōrós, "fresh" or "green vegetation"). The name was sometimes Latinized as Florinon (from the Latin flora, "vegetation") in the later Byzantine period, and in early Ottoman documents the forms Chlerina and Florina are both used, with the latter becoming standard after the 17th century. Another theory is that the modern Greek name derives from φλωρός (florós), the Macedonian dialectal form of χλωρός; this is sometimes spelt Flórina to show the Greek accent. The Macedonian name for the city is Lerin (Лерин), which is a borrowing of the Byzantine Greek name, but with the loss of the initial [x] characteristic of the local dialect (cf. Macedonian ladno "cold" vs. Serbian hladno).

[Daskalot]

Thats a good one Daskalot.

NameThe city's original Byzantine name, Χλέρινον (Chlérinon, "full of green vegetation"), derives from the Greek word χλωρός (chlōrós, "fresh" or "green vegetation"). The name was sometimes Latinized as Florinon (from the Latin flora, "vegetation") in the later Byzantine period, and in early Ottoman documents the forms Chlerina and Florina are both used, with the latter becoming standard after the 17th century. Another theory is that the modern Greek name derives from φλωρός (florós), the Macedonian dialectal form of χλωρός; this is sometimes spelt Flórina to show the Greek accent. The Slavic name for the city is Lerin (Лерин), which is a borrowing of the Byzantine Greek name, but with the loss of the initial [x] characteristic of the local dialect (cf. Macedonian Slavic ladno "cold" vs. Serbian hladno).

Why are you referring to our language as Slavic and Macedonian Slavic when it is internationally recognized as neither?
You know that you are in direct violation of the forum rules, right?

[Voltron]

Why are you referring to our language as Slavic and Macedonian Slavic when it is internationally recognized as neither?
You know that you are in direct violation of the forum rules, right?

I pasted it from wiki as a short reference and didnt even see that part until you just mentioned it. Sorry.

Corrected the post, I have to keep my eyes open

[makedonin]

To change, adapt.

The change and adaption you are talking about must not be beyond recognition. Wouldn't you agree? Otherwise you can't prove that the original thing has changed or adapted.

But this is the case with Greek culture and religion. The easiest part you already have taken care, that is the language and it's purification.
However the rest of the culture is changed beyond recognition and can't be compared with the culture of the so called Ancient Greeks. Thus only with a wild stretch you can allude that the ancient is the origin of the modern, which actually is not true.

The only difference is that we do not agree on how Ancient Macedonians were. You say they were not Greek, we say they were.

No that is not the only difference. You people go beyond any possible reconciliation and claim it all for you while aiming to exclude and lynch Macedonians of any link with antiquity.

You use your common technique of downplaying the whole Greek action.

Apart from that, looking at the ancient definition of what Greek should be, we can't escape the conclusion that it is like balloon.

It was and can be stretched or contracted to suite the needs of the one who wants to use the definition.

What do you mean ? We were not Slavs to start with. The Slavic element was absorbed by the Greeks, not the other way around.

Those Slavs are no longer Slavs, they were absorbed by the Greek Ethnos.

Again, its called assimilation.

Because they adopted our language, customs, traditions. The only part that is Slav is a placename they once dwelled.

You are exaggerating the extent of the assimilation and absorption. Assimilation simply means "make similar, make a like" (source), it does not means to exterminate (only Greeks use it that way).

So how is it done the easy way?

By renaming the customs, traditions etc. into something else. From Slavic or what ever it was it was renamed in Greek.It was previously Turkish coffee now it is a Greek coffee, etc. etc. The essence remains unchanged or slightly modified, only the name changes. Wouldn't you agree?

That is what really happened, the customs, the habits that people had were only renamed, slightly adapted, but in it's basics they did not abandoned their culture and traditions, nor did they surgically operated their brains and replaced the "Slavic" part with "Greek" part.

This can be easily proven.

You just have to look at the so called "Greeks of Macedonia" of today. They dance Turkish, Macedonian, Vlach, Pontic or any other dances but with out text because the text will betray the origin of the dance and song, so that the Greeks who were forcing assimilation can't accuse them of non Greekness.

Your reduction of the whole thing to the Slav place names is unsustainable.

Apart from that, if we look into the so called Greek customs, traditions apart from the language, we can barely recognize any genuine trait, but most of it has common Mediterranean cultural traits with heavy oriental mix, which is only natural for the region.
The same difficulty was testified by the western philhellenes who were unable to find any Greekness in the inhabitants of Ottoman Peloponnese and wider Greek regions.
Only you come along and claim that this cultural traits are genuine Greek and have been there for 5000 unchanged.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

The change and adaption you are talking about must not be beyond recognition. Wouldn't you agree? Otherwise you can't prove that the original thing has changed or adapted.

No, I dont agree. Who said we are changed beyond recognition ? You are advocating this. Not me.

But this is the case with Greek culture and religion. The easiest part you already have taken care, that is the language and it's purification. However the rest of the culture is changed beyond recognition and can't be compared with the culture of the so called Ancient Greeks. Thus only with a wild stretch you can allude that the ancient is the origin of the modern, which actually is not true.

What do you mean ? Are you expecting us to be just like the Ancients in dress and pagan worship ? Would I be Greek if I prayed to Zeus, sit in a park and philosophise while wearing a toga ? I dont understand what you are trying to say. Its only been a couple thousand years Makedonin. You cant expect to be exactly the same.

Apart from that, looking at the ancient definition of what Greek should be, we can't escape the conclusion that it is like balloon.
It was and can be stretched or contracted to suite the needs of the one who wants to use the definition.

On the contrary, some people try to make Hellenism something fixed. I dont agree with that.

You are exaggerating the extent of the assimilation and absorption. Assimilation simply means "make similar, make a like" (source), it does not means to exterminate (only Greeks use it that way).

So how is it done the easy way?

Assmilation is by no means exaggeration. It happens throughouth the world and is not only by Greeks.

By renaming the customs, traditions etc. into something else. From Slavic or what ever it was it was renamed in Greek.It was previously Turkish coffee now it is a Greek coffee, etc. etc. The essence remains unchanged or slightly modified, only the name changes. Wouldn't you agree?

No, I dont agree. Dont have time now to explain.

That is what really happened, the customs, the habits that people had were only renamed, slightly adapted, but in it's basics they did not abandoned their culture and traditions, nor did they surgically operated their brains and replaced the "Slavic" part with "Greek" part.

This can be easily proven.

I doubt it can be easily proven. List some examples.

You just have to look at the so called "Greeks of Macedonia" of today. They dance Turkish, Macedonian, Vlach, Pontic or any other dances but with out text because the text will betray the origin of the dance and song, so that the Greeks who were forcing assimilation can't accuse them of non Greekness.

You make it sound like we were never there. You may need to open up a little bit yourself Makedonin.

Your reduction of the whole thing to the Slav place names is unsustainable.

Apart from that, if we look into the so called Greek customs, traditions apart from the language, we can barely recognize any genuine trait, but most of it has common Mediterranean cultural traits with heavy oriental mix, which is only natural for the region.
The same difficulty was testified by the western philhellenes who were unable to find any Greekness in the inhabitants of Ottoman Peloponnese and wider Greek regions.
Only you come along and claim that this cultural traits are genuine Greek and have been there for 5000 unchanged.

They have been continued and fluid throughout time. It is only normal this would happen. Do we have to be like the Papua Guinea tribes that still live in tree huts to show we have not changed ?

[Onur]

Turkish word is derived from the Greek word so there is no reason to use the Turkish version. FYI we do use the name Salonica often.
The official name of course is Thessaloniki.

I dont see any reasons why we shouldnt revive a name from antiquity.

Thats true, Turkish version of Selanik derived from the old antique name because Ottoman empire didn't bother inventing new names since there was no ethnic, nationalist concerns and uneasiness at that times. So they just used same names with minor letter changes to make it easy to pronounce in Turkish. Also, English versions of these places has been derived from Turkish/Slavic former names. So, the name of "Salonika" has been derived from Turkish "Selanik", just like "Monastir" from Turkish version "Manastır".

Btw stop saying "we restored the names". As i said b4, you didn't restored shit, you just changed them and invented new Greekish names for 600+1000 year old Slavic or Turkish named towns, cities. You only restored few of them cuz in antiquity, there was only few major cities in Macedonia and Greece like Salonika, Athens but other places was not inhabited. Morea was kinda desolated place because of black plague and other political reasons especially between 10th and 14th century. Byzantines used Macedonia and Morea for the settlement of their Turkic, Vlach, Bulgar, other Slavic speaking foreign mercenaries for the very same reason again and these places became frontier, a buffer zone of Byzantines against increasing Russian, Bulgar, Pecheneg, Cuman, Vlach pressure and threat coming from the northwestern side.

The population of Greece has been increased only after 16th century because there was no order in there for a long time `till the settlement of Ottoman order and most of the towns and cities has been founded after 15th century to supply the demand of ever increasing population.

600-1000 year old Slavic and Turkish names of these places are biggest proof of who founded, ruled and lived in those places. Thats exactly why neo-Hellenes couldn't handle this fact and invented new names for all the towns, cities ~100 years ago. They just wanted to erase the traces of Macedonian, Albanian and Turkish presence in there and make it Greek-only in an artificial way.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Thats true, Turkish version of Selanik derived from the old antique name because Ottoman empire didn't bother inventing new names since there was no ethnic, nationalist concerns and uneasiness at that times. So they just used same names with minor letter changes to make it easy to pronounce in Turkish. Also, English versions of these places has been derived from Turkish/Slavic former names. So, the name of "Salonika" has been derived from Turkish "Selanik", just like "Monastir" from Turkish version "Manastır".

Its also because you originally came from the Altai Mountains and ended up in our neighborhood. You cannot look from our perspective no matter how hard you try.

Btw stop saying "we restored the names". As i said b4, you didn't restored shit, you just changed them and invented new Greekish names for 600+1000 year old Slavic or Turkish named towns, cities. You only restored few of them cuz in antiquity, there was only few major cities in Macedonia and Greece like Salonika, Athens but other places was not inhabited. Morea was kinda desolated place because of black plague and other political reasons especially between 10th and 14th century. Byzantines used Macedonia and Morea for the settlement of their Turkic, Vlach, Bulgar, other Slavic speaking foreign mercenaries for the very same reason again and these places became frontier, a buffer zone of Byzantines against increasing Russian, Bulgar, Pecheneg, Cuman, Vlach pressure and threat coming from the northwestern side.

Can you post me some medievil texts that attest to our extermination ?
Indeed it was the Byzantines that had invited Slavs, Vlachs, Albanians
to our area. Again, we are talking about mass extermination of the Greek people as we know it. Can you prove to me that this has happenend ? Sources ? If you disagree with the sources that I have posted let me know. Dont just throw in comments without something to back them up.

600-1000 year old Slavic and Turkish names of these places are biggest proof of who founded, ruled and lived in those places. Thats exactly why neo-Hellenes couldn't handle this fact and invented new names for all the towns, cities ~100 years ago. They just wanted to erase the traces of Macedonian, Albanian and Turkish presence in there and make it Greek-only in an artificial way.

What we would like to erase is the Turkish presense. That has my full endorsement. The other ones dont bother me at all. It was the Turks that really pulled a number in the Balkans, I guess you cant handle the fact that your out of Greece and there is nothing for you to show for it. Even your mosques.

[Onur]

Its also because you originally came from the Altai Mountains and ended up in our neighborhood. You cannot look from our perspective no matter how hard you try.

Yes, we cannot look from your ill neo-Hellenic perspective and i would rather not to, never ever.

Can you post me some medievil texts that attest to our extermination? Indeed it was the Byzantines that had invited Slavs, Vlachs, Albanians to our area. Again, we are talking about mass extermination of the Greek people as we know it. Can you prove to me that this has happenend ? Sources ? If you disagree with the sources that I have posted let me know. Dont just throw in comments without something to back them up.

I cant bother trying to convince you for something. Just forget about your ill-perspective only for a day, then read and learn yourself.

Btw, i`ve never said Greeks has been exterminated by someone else. I said, ancient Greeks has been totally disappeared among Roman society as it has been noted like that by Roman historians in 5-6th century AD. At first, their pagan habits and philosophy has been condemned in christian early medieval world. Already, they have been thinly spread out from Cappadocia to southern Italy and then they became Romans and totally disappeared from history by 5-6th century.

What we would like to erase is the Turkish presense. That has my full endorsement. I guess you cant handle the fact that your out of Greece and there is nothing for you to show for it. Even your mosques.

This just shows your nations medieval like backward culture, inferiority complex and a poor attempts to create fake and artificial proofs for your shallow history. On the other hand, we preserve everything we can here and protect them all.

I can only pity for you and your nations misbehavior. Btw, we have 600+ year old documented and attested history in your country. Change names, demolish monuments or not, no matter what you do, we will always remember Albanian Morea, Macedonian and Turkish Aegean Macedonia.

Don't forget that we were there for 600+ years and you neo-Hellenes are only there for less than 200 years. You have 400+ years more to catch us up, so you got more work to do, more facts to distort.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Btw, i`ve never said Greeks has been exterminated by someone else. I said, ancient Greeks has been totally disappeared among Roman society as it has been noted like that by Roman historians in 5-6th century AD. At first, their pagan habits and philosophy has been condemned in christian early medieval world. Already, they have been thinly spread out from Cappadocia to southern Italy and then they became Romans and totally disappeared from history by 5-6th century.

Oh I get it now. Its the spontaneous combustion theory you had mentioned in the past. With the coming of Christianity we suddenly all imploded all at once. Ok.

This just shows your nations medieval like backward culture, inferiority complex and a poor attempts to create fake and artificial proofs for your shallow history. On the other hand, we preserve everything we can here and protect them all.

Right, Like the Allanoi archeological site you guys are going to flood in to build a dam. ---> http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/tag/spas/

I can only pity for you and your nations misbehavior. Btw, we have 600+ year old documented and attested history in your country. Change names, demolish monuments or not, no matter what you do, we will always remember Albanian Morea, Macedonian and Turkish Aegean Macedonia.

As long as there is nothing visible to show from Turks presence its good enough for me.

Don't forget that we were there for 600+ years and you neo-Hellenes are only there for less than 200 years. You have 400+ years more to catch us up, so you got more work to do, more facts to distort.

ok.

[Onur]

This is for you Voltron.

A forum member sent me this link a week ago. I don't understand what they say but you will. It`s about your Albanian saviors (neo-hellenes) of 1821, the mob who has been deceived by blood-thirsty priests under the command of philhellenes to kill their own muslim kinsmen.

From Greek documentary, enjoy!!!;

YouTube - Alvanoi - Arvanites - Shqipetar - fustanella (Skai new documentary 1821)albanian subs

[George S.]

Voltron you do know the division of macedonia between the 3 countries made it possible to just land grab a slice of macedonia.You know greece wasn't happy with her share & apparently wanted more.The 3 countries were nothing more than ravenous wolves wanting to get what's not theirs.Did they stop & think to ask the macedonian people.Greece/serbia/bulgaria/albania STOLE the land from the macedonian people NOT liberated that is a complete lie when greeks say liberated.Why did it OCUPY macedonia
because it had no land & Athens was basicallty a swamp land.Voltron greece called macedonia the occupied land.So your country is a thief taking what does not belong to themToday it carries on like a common yhief trying to lie to everyone that the land in northern greece is theirs it's not.Voltron the facts & evidence are there your country greece & it's people have violated the macedonian people.

[George S.]

thanks for the video onur.

[Voltron]

This is for you Voltron.

A forum member sent me this link a week ago. I don't understand what they say but you will. It`s about your Albanian saviors (neo-hellenes) of 1821, the mob who has been deceived by blood-thirsty priests under the command of philhellenes to kill their own muslim kinsmen.

From Greek documentary, enjoy!!!;

Just say you got it from Epirot. He probably sent it to you when you jumped in to his defense on the Albanization of Macedonia thread. In any case, this is from the documentary 1821 that you posted.

Basically its saying that Albanians ( aka Arvanites ) had a significant role in the Greek Independence movement against the Ottomans. Surprise Surprise as if most Greeks dont know this already. Would I prove anything to you if I posted a video of Mehmet the Conqueror, Ataturk or even Sinan ? As I once said to you, you as a Turk should know better.

the mob who has been deceived by blood-thirsty priests under the command of philhellenes to kill their own muslim kinsmen.

Those damn Phil-Hellenes again, they were also responsible for the Foukoushima Reactor 2 giving way the other day. They are worse than Gremlins....

[Voltron]

Voltron you do know the division of macedonia between the 3 countries made it possible to just land grab a slice of macedonia.You know greece wasn't happy with her share & apparently wanted more.The 3 countries were nothing more than ravenous wolves wanting to get what's not theirs.Did they stop & think to ask the macedonian people.Greece/serbia/bulgaria/albania STOLE the land from the macedonian people NOT liberated that is a complete lie when greeks say liberated.Why did it OCUPY macedonia
because it had no land & Athens was basicallty a swamp land.Voltron greece called macedonia the occupied land.So your country is a thief taking what does not belong to themToday it carries on like a common yhief trying to lie to everyone that the land in northern greece is theirs it's not.Voltron the facts & evidence are there your country greece & it's people have violated the macedonian people.

Tell you what George, The profigs go back to their homes and you go back to yours. Ask your buddy Onur what he thinks of this idea ? After all, he shouldnt mind since he supports you 110 %

[George S.]

Voltron Onur is allready in turkey how can he go back ??It's you sir that has to go back to your roots.Where are you from originally?Also if i wanted to go home in Solun will they give it to me.?You know how you wanted to hand macedonia to it's people then where are you going perhaps it's to your roots.