The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Amphipolis]

If I understand correctly this opinion is (first?) found in the book of Panagiotis Lioufis on the history of Kozani (1924). This is quite extended (google translation)

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Feranistis.net%2Fwordpress%2F2014%2F08%2F24%2F%25CE%25B9%25CF%2583%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CF%2581%25CE%25AF%25CE%25B1-%25CF%2584%25CE%25B7%25CF%2582-%25CE%25BA%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B6%25CE%25AC%25CE%25BD%25CE%25B7%25CF%2582-%25CF%2580%25CF%2581%25CF%258E%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B9-%25CF%2583%25CF%2585%25CE%25BD%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BA%25CE%25B9%25CF%2583%25CE%25BC%2F

Edit: I also updated Wikipedia, where you can find an active link to (more or less) similar material from the city's website



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[Soldier of Macedon]

In Macedonia, there is actually a village with the name Arvati near Lake Prespa:
https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90...B5%D1%82%D0%BE

Thanks Carlin, that was an interesting read. Based on the accounts of the local population and that Polish linguist (Włodzimierz Pianka), the name of the village derives from Croatian settlers in Macedonia from the 16th and 17th centuries. As Macedonian dialects usually drop the 'h' in front of a vowel (for example, hajde > ajde, hubavo > ubavo, etc.), it makes sense that the village was once called Horvat/Harvati but today it is Arvati.

According to Max Vasmer, "Harvati" goes back to the tribal name of the Croatians (Old Slavonic: *Chr̥vati). In addition to the fact that this tribal name can be found on ancient Sorbian soil and in the Kashubian language area, we have many traces of it in southern Slavic. Link: [url]http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mv/mv_3_12.htm#17[/url

The difference between the locations which have the same toponym in Macedonia and Greece, is that the Macedonian village is from a much later period. I am not aware of any Croatian settlers in Greece at the end of the late Middle Ages, so it may be that these place names in the Peloponnese and elsewhere were established before this period, from the 7th century or some time afterwards, when Greece was flooded with peoples who spoke Slavic languages.

In my previous post I mentioned Kozani. In Wikipedia they provide the following explanation for its etymology. I am still amazed at how much latitude is afforded to Greeks (and Bulgars/others) when it comes to their input on Macedonian topics, yet their own topics are hardly ever scrutinised. Anyway, from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozani

According to prevailing opinion in Greece, the name comes from the village of Epirus Kósdiani, the origin of settlers of Kozani in 1392. The settlement was first named Kózdiani, which then, it was changed into Kóziani, and in the end into Kozáni.

The "prevailing opinion" (apparently a credible source in Wikipedia these days) leads to a dead link, where the website can only be accessed as an archive. In that archive, it is basically a copy of the Greek Wikipedia, but translated into English (except they call the Turks as Turkalvani, for good measure):

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CE%BF%CE%B6%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B7

In 1392 settlers coming from Premedi, Vythikouki and Kozdani of Epirus, fled hunted by the Turks in the area north of Selitsa (which until today is called Paliokozdani) and then migrating east they met the Christian settlement in Kalyvia. [4] The inhabitants of Kalyvia did not alienate them, but forced them to build their homes further east. The new inhabitants named the area Jamouria, saving the maiden name of their old area. Today the area is called Jabra. Also, the rocky hill above Jabra was named Scrika or Skirka (Sk'rka), which means rocky hill. Although there are various versions of the name of the city the most prevalent is that these settlers of Epirus named the new settlement Kosdiani which was then converted into Koziani and the later scholars transformed it into Kozani. The inhabitants of old and new settlements unite in a new single community, build a church, build aqueducts and fountaines. The first recorded reference to Kozani is made in a sultanic firmani of 1528,as a settlement with 91 houses, 23 bachelors and 15 widows.

The highlighted section has a link (on the word "which") that leads to the town of Eratira, which was called Selitsa until 1928 - an obvious Macedonian place name.

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%95%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%84%CF%85%CF%81%CE%B1_%CE%9A% CE%BF%CE%B6%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82

Eratira is a town in the municipality of Voos,the regional unit of Kozani.........It is 12 km from Siatista and 42 km from Kozani.........Until 1928,which took its name, it was called Selitsa and the first reference to it was in the Code of Zavorda of 1534.

Selitsa is only about 40km away from Kozani. Yet, according to the Wikipedia entries, the name of the latter changed from Kosdiani to Kozani. I also tried searching for Paliokozdani (Παλιοκόζδιανη), as the entry in Wikipedia suggests that the area in or near Selitsa is still called by that name. However, all I found in the first page of Google results was the exact same text from Wikipedia. I didn't bother searching anymore. Meanwhile, the Macedonian name of the town, Kozhani (Кожани), has a Macedonian etymology that makes perfect sense. Further, in Poland, there is a village with same name:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%BCany

So, what does Kozani or Kosdiani mean in Greek?

[Carlin]

According to Max Vasmer, "Harvati" goes back to the tribal name of the Croatians (Old Slavonic: *Chr̥vati). In addition to the fact that this tribal name can be found on ancient Sorbian soil and in the Kashubian language area, we have many traces of it in southern Slavic.

Link:

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mv/mv_3_12.htm#17

In Macedonia, there is actually a village with the name Arvati near Lake Prespa:

https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8#%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%BE_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE

This village appeared under various forms of the present name (Harvati, Harvat, Hrvati, and Arvati) and its existence has been recorded in several sources from different periods.

There is also the following, which seems to confirm the connection:

"Another mass migration of Macedonians took place between the years 1751 and 1753 this time from Austria and Hungary to Russia. Here is a typical story of one man's journey that could apply to every Macedonian immigrant who ventured into Austria and Hungary. His name is Ivan Horvat, a Vlach from Macedonia. His father's name was Samoil. Samoil came to Austria from the village Horvat, located in Dolna Prespa Region, later renamed Horvati then Rvati. Today the Village is called Arvati. Samoil fought in the Karposh Uprising and after its suppression fled to Austria where he became Lieutenant Colonel in the Austrian army. Ivan was born in Petrovaradin and as he advanced through the army ranks he achieved the rank Major in an infantry regiment."

Link:

https://documents-mk.blogspot.com/2016/06/early-macedonian-diaspora.html

[Soldier of Macedon]

Not exactly but this has been often discussed in the forum, how Arvanitovlachs (i.e. Vlachs from Albania) have fused with Albanians at some occasions or how various Greeks or foreigners confuse them or put them in the same sentence.

The intermixing of peoples and confusion on the part of others is probable. The likelihood of the term Arvanites being used to refer to any cattle breeder, irrespective of their ancestral background, doesn't seem to be so, at least not in the wholesale way it was described in the text.

The etymology of Harvati (that also appears in 4-5 minor toponyms) is unknown. Here, an Arvanite provides an analysis, his theory is that it is related to Arvanites, but comes from the (recent Greek) word harvalon (ruin).

https://translate.google.com/transla...g-post_24.html

Damn, that is one self-hating Tosk Albanian. I am going to ignore most of his nonsense and just cite some of the text from the link:

The place name is definitely Arvanite, because the first inhabitants of Harvatio (today's Pallini) were Arvanites. We also find it outside (3 km east) of Loutraki (as a settlement and stream) and Mycenae (the old name of the homonymous village) , areas also with Arvanites. It is also found as a mountain near the Stratos of Etoloakarnania, an area from the first Arvanites who moved and today Arvanitovlachs ( Palaiomanina ) flourish.

So, according to him, it is found in Attica, Aetolia-Acarnania and the Peloponnese.

But we have other place names in Arvanitika that end in -ati (like Strati ).

Strati is an Albanian place name? Interesting theory. Do you believe that? Or do you think Strati is the Greek short form or colloquial way of saying Stratis?

The name Harvati, therefore, has to do with a geographical characterization, a special peculiarity related to the soil and its curves or possibly with some features of flora. It seems difficult to know exactly, as in many other cases of Arvanite toponyms. , that the physiognomy of the area is captured, but we can not first identify the exact meaning of the identification.

Intriguing paragraph. I am sure it makes perfect sense to him.

The word does not exist in the Medieval Dictionary of Kriaras, nor in the Dictionary of Markos Mousouros (Etymological mega alphabetically very useful, 1499) which means that the place name emerged after the 16th century.

That's convenient. Do Greek dictionaries record and provide explanations for foreign place names or those of unknown origin, especially if that word is not used as part of the language? If not, I don't see how the quoted statement is relevant. If so, I would be interested to know what the older dictionaries entered for Dragomesti (the name of Astakos prior to the 19th century), which, coincidentally, is also in Aetolia-Acarnania, or what any of them enter for Kozani.

We know, from various sources, that the area in the Byzantine years (from the time of Rome already) was abandoned, barren and empty. This is how the Arvanites found it when they went there.

Do you agree with that?

...popular word Harvalias just meant rimadio, ruin, everything neglected or dialymeno.To Harvalias arose from chalavron or (with permutation) charavron in medieval adjective chalavros , parallel importance to loose the archaias.I word is alive today ( xecharvalono ).....Haravati or Harabati in the idiom of the Visaltia Province of Serres means something dissolved or deconstructed. The toponym is found in Nigrita but also in the mountain: "Ston Harvatis". idiom dictionary: Terpniotika and Nigritina ", Athens 2000, refers to it as Harabati = bad mess: we became Harabati = dissolved but produces it from the Turkish harabat. Of course Turkish also has a lot of borrowings from other languages. And in the region Visaltias were sporadically spoken and Arvanitika was spoken by some families who came from elsewhere.)

He suggests that harabati is present in an idiom called Terpniotika, which comes from the village of Terpni (called Tserpista in Greek pre-1923 before they modified). It used to be Cherpishta. Anyway, the Turkish word haraba also has an equivalent in Uzbek as xarob - both of them mean "ruin". Are you sure the Greek word you mentioned, haravalon, is not a Turkish loan into Greek?

[Amphipolis]

On a side note, the text also has a link within it regarding the town of Pallini in Attica.

Interesting toponym. I note that the modern Greek word for Croatians is Kroates (Κροάτες). However, in the Middle Ages, it was Hrovatoi (Χρωβάτοι). Might be just a coincidence, but it looks very similar to Harvati (Χαρβάτι) post-metathesis ar > ra.

By the way, is Pallini is a Greek toponym? Seems to be a common surname in Italian.

The etymology of Harvati (that also appears in 4-5 minor toponyms) is unknown. Here, an Arvanite provides an analysis, his theory is that it is related to Arvanites, but comes from the (recent Greek) word harvalon (ruin).

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Farvanitika.blogspot.com%2F2014%2F11%2Fblog-post_24.html

Pallene is an ancient Greek name

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallene_(Attica)

---------------------------------------------

[Amphipolis]

The text in your link stated the following:

The question remains. Are there any sources from that period that suggest terms like Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs had an indefinite meaning (generic, non-ethnic) and were used by people in the sense of nomadic cattle breeders? The text seems to be drawing an analogy of the terms Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs with the term Vlach. The last term (Vlach) may have been used in such a manner (in certain contexts), meaning in some cases it generically referred to a shepherd or something similar. What about Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs? Were there non-Albanians in Greece called Arvanites simply for being a cattle breeder?

Not exactly but this has been often discussed in the forum, how Arvanitovlachs (i.e. Vlachs from Albania) have fused with Albanians at some occasions or how various Greeks or foreigners confuse them or put them in the same sentence.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Which manner is that?

The text in your link stated the following:

......the words "Vlachs", "Arvanites" and "Arvanitovlachoi" had an indefinite meaning and were used by the people in the sense of nomadic cattle breeders.

The question remains. Are there any sources from that period that suggest terms like Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs had an indefinite meaning (generic, non-ethnic) and were used by people in the sense of nomadic cattle breeders? The text seems to be drawing an analogy of the terms Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs with the term Vlach. The last term (Vlach) may have been used in such a manner (in certain contexts), meaning in some cases it generically referred to a shepherd or something similar. What about Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs? Were there non-Albanians in Greece called Arvanites simply for being a cattle breeder?

On a side note, the text also has a link within it regarding the town of Pallini in Attica.

Θέση της σύγχρονης πόλης αποτελεί το ιστορικό κέντρο του αρβανίτικου οικισμού Χαρβάτι. Ανήκει στην Περιφερειακή Ενότητα Ανατολικής Αττικής της Περιφέρειας Αττικής.

Location of the modern city is the historical center of the Albanian settlement Harvati. It belongs to the Regional Unit of East Attica of the Attica Region.

Interesting toponym. I note that the modern Greek word for Croatians is Kroates (Κροάτες). However, in the Middle Ages, it was Hrovatoi (Χρωβάτοι). Might be just a coincidence, but it looks very similar to Harvati (Χαρβάτι) post-metathesis ar > ra.

By the way, is Pallini a Greek toponym? Seems to be a common surname in Italian.

[Carlin]

JOURNAL ARTICLE
BLOOD VENGEANCE ("MAINA") IN SOUTHERN GREECE AND AMONG THE SLAVS
André Mirambel
Byzantion
Vol. 16, No. 2 (1942-1943), pp. 381-392
Published by: Peeters Publishers

[Amphipolis]

It also inspired the film Megalexandros (1980)

By the way, I realized Megalexandros is available on youtube, with English subtitles (you can activate them). This is the best Greek film on Alexander the Great, though you may find it has... little to do with him, and more with the folk view on him or the Dilesi incident mentioned above.

This is a masterpiece, for hardcore cinephiles only, and probably the best Greek film of the 1980s, largely unknown to Greeks today, including Macedonian landscapes and great Macedonian folk-like music written by Chalaris who is a great composer and also a musicologist expert in Byzantine music. Maybe, Carlin is interested because of the content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCqV0cIRDF8

[Carlin]

I was recently watching documentary videos on youtube about the breakup of Yugoslavia and read about the Glogova massacre which took place in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in May 1992.

Having come across the toponym "Glogova" it seemed like I came across this name before. I realized that there is a village "Drakovouni" in Arcadia, Peloponnese. The original/authentic name of "Drakovouni" was Glogova, until 1927 that is. Interestingly, I came across a few toponyms in Arcadia/Peloponnese that have their parallels in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We used to have a Kamenitsa in Arcadia but also Kamenica in Bosnia. We have Vytina in Arcadia but also Vitina in Bosnia, etc.

Questions for analysis:
- When were the Arcadian villages of Glogova, Kamenitsa and Vytina established?
- What is the likelihood that these villages were founded by medieval (monolingual) Greek-speakers?
- If they were not founded by Greek-speakers, which seems to be the case here, when did these villages fully self-Hellenize and what "foreign" language was spoken there earlier?

[Carlin]

Which manner is that? Arvanites, Vlachs and all other foreigners always had these two sides, a Greek one and a non-Greek one, so anyone would use the side that suited him at the occasion. I don't know if brigandry was predominately Albanian, it was actually a very complicated issue that was fully solved much later (in 1900s or 1910s)

Do tell us, if you know. I believe the specific question was:
Are there any sources from that period that suggest "Arvanites" and "Arvanitovlachs" have been used in the same or similar generic manner that the term "Vlach/Vlachs" may have been used?

Apparently, the term "Vlach" had multiple meanings (i.e. mountaineer, shepherd, villager, uncouth person), therefore, did the term "Arvanite" have similar meanings?

[Amphipolis]

From your link:

With a surname like Arvanitakis it is more than likely that the two brothers were Albanians. In some instances, the term Vlach may have been used in a generic manner for a shepherd or the like, but are there any sources from that period that suggest Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs have been used in the same manner?

Which manner is that? Arvanites, Vlachs and all other foreigners always had these two sides, a Greek one and a non-Greek one, so anyone would use the side that suited him at the occasion. I don't know if brigandry was predominately Albanian, it was actually a very complicated issue that was fully solved much later (in 1900s or 1910s)

[Soldier of Macedon]

From your link:

The MP from Milisi, who announced the history of the case in Parliament, claimed that all but two of the robbers were foreigners, ie "Albanians and Vlachs living in Turkey". It is believed that this statement was made because there was a European outcry against Greece for the event. The commentator of the announcement mentions that the Arvanitakis were Greeks from Agrafa, a family from which he had come and a leader of chariots. Takis Arvanitakis had excelled fighting against the Turks inrevolution of Agrafa in 1866. Also that the words "Vlachs", "Arvanites" and "Arvanitovlachoi" had an indefinite meaning and were used by the people in the sense of nomadic cattle breeders.

With a surname like Arvanitakis it is more than likely that the two brothers were Albanians. In some instances, the term Vlach may have been used in a generic manner for a shepherd or the like, but are there any sources from that period that suggest Arvanites and Arvanitovlachs have been used in the same manner?

[Amphipolis]

This article is related to the following (very interesting event), English translation from Greek Wikipedia.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fel.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F%25CE%25A3%25CF%2586%25CE%25B1%25CE%25B3%25CE%25AE_%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CF%2585_%25CE%2594%25CE%25B7%25CE%25BB%25CE%25B5%25CF%2583%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BF%25CF%258D

It also inspired the film Megalexandros (1980)

[Soldier of Macedon]

The below article was written during a time when some journalists from western Europe still had enough integrity to tell the truth. Their successors today seem to have forgotten about this contemporary sentiment and are now willing to afford the modern Greeks plenty of latitude when it comes to their myths and national narrative. The modern Greeks, for their part, have been projecting their own insecurities on others since independence. And these days we have the bizarre situation where the creator and the brainchild, both devoid of integrity, have joined forces to torment the Macedonians, a people who are indigenous to Macedonia and did not need different ethno-linguistic groups from the Balkans and elsewhere to come to the country in order to create, reaffirm or bolster their nation.

The Times, 3 June, 1870