The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Karposh]

2. Kozani DID have a tanning industry, but most of the info we can find is about later periods, after the name was established.

It doesn’t necessarily have to have been a tanning/leather industry, that could possibly have given rise to the name Kozhani. I just mentioned that out of curiosity. A place trading in “Ovchka Kozha” i.e. Sheep Skin, could have given rise to the name. We know Vlahs made up a big proportion of the population of that town back in the day and, sheep herding, was the main preoccupation for the Vlahs. I just googled the word Vlah and was amazed to see numerous old images of Vlah shepherds covered in sheep skin from, literally, head to toe – sheepskin hats, sheepskin coats, sheepskin boots, etc. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the town was famous for its sheep skins.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

the city's Wallachians maintained continuous trade relations with the countries of Central and Danubian Europe, which brought the city great prosperity.[/B]

Central Europe, what did I say

[Liberator of Makedonija]

SoM, what year is that Austrian report dated? Other reports from earlier in the 20th century seem to indicate Kožani as being a predominantly Hellenised Vlach town, but this Austrian report suggests Macedonian speakers were the majority at the time of the survey

[Soldier of Macedon]

LoM, the Austrian military maps were developed over several years. According to the below, they were started in 1869 and finished early in WWI.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:3rd_Military_Mapping_Survey_of_Austria-Hungary&from=A

The person who was quoted earlier indicated that there were "slavophones" (Macedonians) in Kožani as late as the 1960's. I don't know what the ratio was between Macedonians and Vlachs but I don't see why Vlachs would pronounce the name differently to Macedonians unless they were using it from a Greek perspective (ž > z), where it may have eventually become the norm for them. It could also just be that an Austrian official obtained the name from a Vlach who lived among Macedonians and couldn't be bothered pretending to be a Greek in that moment. Note that Vlachs in Kruševo don't pronounce name of the town as Krusevo. I think the same can apply when they pronounce Mečovo (even if they have later developed their own name based on the original Macedonian). There is no rule in their language which would dictate that Vlachs must pronounce it as Metsovo. If they do pronounce it like that, it is because of years of Greek propaganda and education.

Check this link: https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozani

It is the Romanian language page for Kozani. It suggests that in Vlach (Aromână in Romanian) the name is Cojani. Phonetically, that is the same as Kožani.

[Karposh]

It’s odd that Mechovo/Metsovo, in the Zagoria region of Epirus is not a Slavic word but the nearby villages of Tsepelovo and Kapeshovo are in fact originally Slavic names according to Wikipedia. What’s more, even the name Zagoria itself is originally a Slavic word which means “Behind the Mountain”. And yet, they fail to see (or more correctly, refuse to see) the Slavic/Macedonian origins of the name Mechovo/Metsovo.

[Soldier of Macedon]

While we're on the topic of Macedonian toponyms that are misleadingly portrayed by some people on Wikipedia as having a Greek etymology, observe the following on Bogatsko from the Greek Wikipedia page (English translation). Unsurprisingly, there is no explanation of the name on the English Wikipedia page.

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%92...B9%CE%AC%CF%82

For the origin of the name "Vogatsakis" there are two main versions. One mentions that it is the Greek version of the Turkish "Bogaz Kioi", which meant "Village of Bougazios", as the village is built in "bogazi" i.e. at the end of a narrow ravine. So "Bogaz Kioi" became "Bogatsko" and then "Vogatsikos". The other version states that Vogatsian is named after "Bogatsia", a type of bread made at festive and other social events. Vogatsikos in Turkish was also referred to as "Genti Kioi" i.e. "Heptachori", a name that has its roots in the history of the village, as Vogatsikos is the union of seven older settlements in the wider region for fear of the Turks. Another version is that the name of the village comes from the Bulgarian language: in Bulgarian the word "болат" (bogat/vogat) means "rich" and the ending "ско" (sko) is often found in the place names. In addition, many villages in the area were Bulgarian-speaking at the beginning of the 20th century.

Bogatsko is in Macedonia and is without doubt a Macedonian word. There is documented evidence of the Macedonian language being spoken in that village from the 16th century. The editors of the Wikipedia page are attempting to raise doubt by mentioning alternative "theories" about a Turkish ravine or a piece of bread. Give me a break. And this is the objectivity we have on Wikipedia? An absolute joke. I notice they tell the truth about some Latin/Romance place names such as Missolonghi and Santorini (even though officially there is another name for this island). I haven't bothered to check in any great detail, but I wonder if these clowns play the same stupid games with the rest of the non-Greek place names in Greece.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

LoM, the Austrian military maps were developed over several years. According to the below, they were started in 1869 and finished early in WWI.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:3rd_Military_Mapping_Survey_of_Austria-Hungary&from=A

The person who was quoted earlier indicated that there were "slavophones" (Macedonians) in Kožani as late as the 1960's. I don't know what the ratio was between Macedonians and Vlachs but I don't see why Vlachs would pronounce the name differently to Macedonians unless they were using it from a Greek perspective (ž > z), where it may have eventually become the norm for them. It could also just be that an Austrian official obtained the name from a Vlach who lived among Macedonians and couldn't be bothered pretending to be a Greek in that moment. Note that Vlachs in Kruševo don't pronounce name of the town as Krusevo. I think the same can apply when they pronounce Mečovo (even if they have later developed their own name based on the original Macedonian). There is no rule in their language which would dictate that Vlachs must pronounce it as Metsovo. If they do pronounce it like that, it is because of years of Greek propaganda and education.

Check this link: https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozani

It is the Romanian language page for Kozani. It suggests that in Vlach (Aromână in Romanian) the name is Cojani. Phonetically, that is the same as Kožani.

From that then it is possible that there was a significant Macedonian-speaking population in Kožani in 1869 at the least

[Carlin]

Max Vasmer states that the "the first part of the name Metsovo cannot be interpreted from Slavic":

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mv/mv_3_1a.htm#203

[Soldier of Macedon]

Max Vasmer states that the "the first part of the name Metsovo cannot be interpreted from Slavic":
http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mv/mv_3_1a.htm#203

Here is the relevant text:

Μέτσοβον ON im Kr. Joannina (Lex.). Dazu vgl. N. Veďs Jahrbücher IV 362. Der aromunische Name dieses Ortes is Mintšu nach Weigand, Aromunen I 149, II 361, JIRSpr. XXI 62 und nach ihm Philippson, Epiros 186. An slavische Herkunft dachte, ohne Angabe einer Etymologie, schon Hilferding I 288. An den angeführten Stellen versucht Weigand eine altbulg. Grundform *Męčovo »Bärenort« zu konstruieren, deren Berechtigung ich bestreiten muß, denn für skr. mečka, meče »pullus um«, bulg. mečъk, mečka läßt sich ein Nasalvokal m. E. nicht nachweisen. Vgl. EW 185. Der Name Μέτσοβον ist im ersten Teil aus dem Slavischen nicht zu deuten.

Carlin, correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that he dismissed a Slavic etymology because the place name in Aromanian/Vlach (Mintšu) means the reconstructed original word for Mečovo must be *Męčovo and include a nasal vowel. When he makes a comparison with Serbo-Croatian (mečka, meče) and Bulgarian (mečъk, mečka), there is no nasal vowel, thus he concludes that the root word cannot be from a Slavic language. Let's assume that is the case, I wonder if he went to the extent of including the south-western dialects of the Macedonian language (Kostur and Nestram-Kostenar) in his comparison, given that they are geographically closest to Mečovo. One of the main features that sets the Kostur area apart from other Macedonian dialects is precisely the nasal vowel, which means the standard Macedonian word for tooth (zab) is rendered as zamb, the word for hand (raka) is rendered as ranka, the word for child (čedo) is rendered as čendo, etc.

https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yus

I am not sure if this has been consistent among all speakers of the Kostur dialect, but it's a distinguishing feature that has been frequently referenced by linguists. That being the case, I wonder if it may be possible that the place name was initially *Męčovo / *Menčovo, after which the nasal vowel was dropped to become Mečovo in Macedonian, but retained in Aromanian/Vlach because it was an early borrowing. I note that Vasmer doesn't provide an alternative etymology.

[Amphipolis]

I don't understand anything about the pronunciation symbols either in Metsovo or Kozani.
Kozani is toned in A and Koz- sounds as the English word cause and -ani as Annie.
Metsovo is toned in E, ts sounds like tch in catch.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't understand anything about the pronunciation symbols either in Metsovo or Kozani.
Kozani is toned in A and Koz- sounds as the English word cause and -ani as Annie.
Metsovo is toned in E, ts sounds like tch in catch.

Are you referring to stressed syllables? In Macedonian, the stress is placed on the first syllable of both Kožani and Mečovo. In Greek, stress is placed on the second syllable of Kozani. Are you suggesting that the stress is placed on the first syllable when you pronounce Metsovo?

[Carlin]

Here is the relevant text:

Carlin, correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that he dismissed a Slavic etymology because the place name in Aromanian/Vlach (Mintšu) means the reconstructed original word for Mečovo must be *Męčovo and include a nasal vowel. When he makes a comparison with Serbo-Croatian (mečka, meče) and Bulgarian (mečъk, mečka), there is no nasal vowel, thus he concludes that the root word cannot be from a Slavic language. Let's assume that is the case, I wonder if he went to the extent of including the south-western dialects of the Macedonian language (Kostur and Nestram-Kostenar) in his comparison, given that they are geographically closest to Mečovo. One of the main features that sets the Kostur area apart from other Macedonian dialects is precisely the nasal vowel, which means the standard Macedonian word for tooth (zab) is rendered as zamb, the word for hand (raka) is rendered as ranka, the word for child (čedo) is rendered as čendo, etc.

I think it might help if anyone knew German and provide an accurate translation of that entire paragraph. He did reference a nasal vowel, but I'm not an expert in linguistics so the only thing I would say, to quote Noel Malcolm, is that Historical linguistics is a complex science and not, in some of its activities, a very exact one.

Presumably, Metsovo was established long time ago - at a time when nasal vowels were still in use (?). This wikipedia entry states that:

"Nasal vowels were initially retained in most Slavic dialects, but soon underwent further changes. Nasality is preserved in modern Polish, as well as in some peripheral dialects of Slovene (e.g. the Carinthian dialect group) and Bulgarian/Macedonian (e.g. around Thessaloniki and Kastoria)."

Considering that nasal vowels are preserved in the areas of Salonica and Kostur I'd say it wouldn't be out of the question to consider that similar regional dialects were being used in the distant past in nearby areas, that is, in Metsovo/Epirus.

URL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Slavic_languages#The_nasal_vowels_%C4%99_and_%C7%AB

I can't say more really other than Metsovo seems to be of Slavonic origin. Although, there might be a possibility that we have here a "non-Slavic prefix" being followed by the -ovo (Slavic) ending.

[Carlin]

He lived in the exact opposite (Eastern) side of Macedonia, in Eleutheroupolis/Pravi. What's weird about this guy is that half of his children (including my grandmother) adopted his original surname while the other half adopted the nickname. My own father didn't really know or care much and the story was clarified for me only 3-4 years ago when I met a cousin that bears the Kozanitis name.

It's not uncommon. For instance, the popular author Freddy Germanos has this surname because his grandfather studied in Germany, not because he was German.

Thanks, that's interesting.

Would you be able to provide a quick summary as to the ethnic makeup of Eleutheroupolis/Pravi/Pravishta within the last 200 years (or longer)?

[Amphipolis]

Is this Kostiani in Epirus mentioned in any contemporary record while it existed?

Is the destruction of the village or the migration of the 'trilingual populations' mentioned in any contemporary record around the time it happened?

That contradicts the other sources you've referenced.

Are you suggesting the name changed from Kosdiani to Kozani in 100 years? Were there any Ottoman surveys or census' in the area prior to 1498?

This weird local newspaper has an excellent analysis in p.3. (https://www.tzourlakos.com/files/kastaniani-105.pdf). According to this:

-Lioufis says Kostiani is mentioned in a byzantine lexicon but he is wrong

-Aravantinos (geographer of Epirus in 1800s) mentions a Kostiani (Tepeleni district) and a Kotziani (Premeti district), both having Albanian speakers (so the author believes they're not the ones we're looking for).

-He goes very far mentioning other villages with same or similar names and long stories on how various authors got them wrong.

-By the way this is a newspaper of Kostaniani/Kastaniani near Konitsa, i.e. another village that was created by the same people.

-He also provides an analysis on the surnames of the first Kozani settlers comparing them to the settlers of his village.


==

[Carlin]

The episode concerning the destruction of Kostiani, is about a woman called Argyro that believed people of Kostiani murdered her son and hired an army of murderers to destroy the village.

The migrating populations were trilingual, Greek, Albanian and Vlach. According to Patrinelis, this isn't about Muslim oppression as there were hardly Muslims (around 3%) at that area.

Telltale signs of a multilingual Vlach-speaking population.