The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15660

    It most definitely has a tanning industry and the resident Greek on the forum has avoided that. The leathers end up in Kostur for tailoring. It's just stating the obvious.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Karposh
      Member
      • Aug 2015
      • 863

      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      It most definitely has a tanning industry and the resident Greek on the forum has avoided that. The leathers end up in Kostur for tailoring. It's just stating the obvious.
      You won't find that admission, of course, on Wikipedia. All possible etymological theories under the sun are perfectly acceptable but God-forbid anyone posit the most obvious etymology that would suggest a Macedonian connection or past and yet makes perfect sense in Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Liberator of Makedonija
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2014
        • 1597

        I think I do remember reading once that Kožani did indeed have a tanning industry during that golden age for the Ottoman Empire where every town in Macedonia seemed to have some specialised trade that was known as far as Vienna
        I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13675

          Originally posted by Karposh View Post
          It makes sense then that the word Kozani resembles a clear Macedonian etymology which means place of the goat or goat-country. Similar to the name of the very Macedonian-sounding Epirote town of Metsovo which literally means place of the bear or bear-country. However, with regard to the town of Kozani, I think it depends on what the actual correct pronunciation for the town is. Ko-za-ni would suggest a link to the Macedonian word for goat - koza. But, Ko-zha-ni would suggest, as LoM alluded to, a link to the Macedonian word for animal skin - kozha.
          The reason why I mentioned Koza being obviously Macedonian is because the text in the link had theories suggesting the name came from a goat. Personally, I don't think it is named after a goat, rather, as I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, I think it is more likely to be from Kozha (skin), hence Kozhani (Кожани). The only reason why it is called Kozani these days is because there is no ZH (ж) sound in Greek. The exact same situation with Metsovo. Clearly, this place name was originally called Mechovo with the etymology you outlined above, but in Greek there is no CH sound so they replace it with TS. However, go to the English Wikipedia page on Metsovo and you see the below:
          The derivation of the name Metsovo—from the words Mitsous and Mesovounon or from the unattested Slav word *Mẹčovo, meaning bear-place—which has been proposed by academics and historians, is not confirmed by linguistic research. On the contrary, there appears to be an etymological relation between the Vlach Minʤu and the Greek Metsovo, the latter being a combination of the stem Mets and the Slavic-ending ovo.
          Seriously, WTF is wrong with these people. They are so brainwashed, so fearful of the "Slav" monster that they cannot even concede the blatantly obvious Macedonian etymology of such places and instead go to great pains to come up with ridiculous alternatives. Even the Turks call it Miçova, pronounced MICHOVA, which is what Mechovo would've sounded like to them before it was bastardised into Metsovo. Like I mentioned before, Greeks and Bulgars have a free reign on Wikipedia to promote their rubbish with basically little interference, but Macedonians cannot promote their own history without some of those maggots editing every single page on a daily basis. The hypocrisy is stunning and beyond stupid and some naive people actually believe they're reading the truth when on Wikipedia.
          Originally posted by Carlin15
          In terms of the prevailing opinion in Greece, that the name comes from the village of Epirus Kósdiani (the origin of settlers of Kozani in 1392) the following eyewitness testimony would seem to corroborate that opinion, as there were many Vlach-speakers living throughout Epirus in the Middle Ages (in some cases/books they are described as forming a majority in Epirus). While visiting the town of Kozani in 1880, British diplomat and historian Sir Ignatius Valentine Chirol, noted that “In the 900 houses of this city there are scarcely twenty where around the family fireside any other language is spoken than the old Latin-sounding Wallach. (Still) the prosperous townsfolk would be deeply hurt if any doubt were hinted as to the genuineness of their Hellenism”.
          The "Hellenism" of the Vlachs in Greece. Surreal. Anyway. If you're suggesting that a lot of Vlachs live in Kozani, I would agree. I have met people from there in the past and they have told me the same, even some of their surnames are a dead giveaway. However, I still don't see the connection between Kozani and this apparent Epirus Kosdiani. Have you found any older sources that refer to Kosdiani anywhere?
          Originally posted by Risto the Great
          It most definitely has a tanning industry and the resident Greek on the forum has avoided that. The leathers end up in Kostur for tailoring. It's just stating the obvious.
          Very interesting. But not surprising that pieces of information like this are excluded and need to be sought out.
          Originally posted by Amphipolis
          The texts I linked are very well written and detailed, and although google translated you got them right.
          The texts you provided were detailed for both Harvati and Kozani. I don't know how well written they were in Greek but I will take your word for it. As for the validity of the suggestions within those texts, they were rather poor. To be honest, given the obviously non-Greek origin of either word, I expected as much.
          If you suggest there’s no definite answer, well that’s usually the case with etymologies. If you ask which I tend to believe most, well it’s the Kosdiani one.
          I'm not suggesting that at all. Any reasonable linguist (or even layman, for that matter) would agree that Kozani (Кожани) is understandable with a perfect etymology in Macedonian and other Slavic languages. The same place name exists in Poland, Slovakia and Russia. In all four of these places, there is a history of Slavic languages being spoken. This is not one of those contentious words that is debatable or in dispute. You believe some story about an apparent "Kosdiani" in Epirus even though none of your sources corroborate it from a linguistic or logical standpoint. You're denying the obvious, but I don't feel the need to keep making the same point. You're free to believe whatever you wish. Anyway, thanks for providing the information, creative though it was.
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Amphipolis
            Banned
            • Aug 2014
            • 1328

            Originally posted by Karposh View Post
            It makes sense then that the word Kozani resembles a clear Macedonian etymology which means place of the goat or goat-country. Similar to the name of the very Macedonian-sounding Epirote town of Metsovo which literally means place of the bear or bear-country. However, with regard to the town of Kozani, I think it depends on what the actual correct pronunciation for the town is. Ko-za-ni would suggest a link to the Macedonian word for goat - koza. But, Ko-zha-ni would suggest, as LoM alluded to, a link to the Macedonian word for animal skin - kozha.



            I too, have always shared this second view, that the name of the town stems from the Macedonian word for animal skins, or some past tanning/leather industry. Does anyone actually know if Kozani has ever had a history in the tanning industry?
            1. I don't remember if it was in the text I linked but I remember having read both theories in the past, in basic city guides.

            2. Kozani DID have a tanning industry, but most of the info we can find is about later periods, after the name was established.


            ===
            Last edited by Amphipolis; 07-22-2020, 12:18 PM.

            Comment

            • Amphipolis
              Banned
              • Aug 2014
              • 1328

              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              Actually, none of it is answered. There is not a single older source referenced in the text that refers to Kozani as Kosdiani, that mentions the Epirus Kosdiani or Paliokozdani.
              The first reference to Kozani is in an Ottoman document of 1498-1502, according to which Kozani is the smallest among 36 settlements of the district (kaza) around the town of Servia.

              According to info i found in another essay, the Byzantine document mentioned before may be fake (it wasn't about the name anyway).

              The original Kostiani or Kostaniani of Epirus is believed to be located North of Premeti (in today's Albania) and had been totally destroyed by the end of that decade (1390s). This village should not be confused with another village of the same name that is also close (inside modern Greece, close to the Albanian borders).

              The episode concerning the destruction of Kostiani, is about a woman called Argyro that believed people of Kostiani murdered her son and hired an army of murderers to destroy the village.

              The migrating populations were trilingual, Greek, Albanian and Vlach. According to Patrinelis, this isn't about Muslim oppression as there were hardly Muslims (around 3%) at that area.


              Comment

              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                The French entry for Kozani https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozani states as follows:
                "Le nom, probablement d'origine slavonne ("Koža") signifie "écorce, cuir" (en particulier "cuir de chčvre")."

                Translation: The name, probably of Slavonic origin ("Koža") means "bark, leather" (in particular "goat leather").

                In the second paragraph under section Histoire, it further states:
                "Pendant le XVIIe sičcle et le XVIIIe sičcle, les Valaques de la ville entretiennent des relations commerciales suivies avec les pays d'Europe centrale et danubienne, qui apportent ŕ la ville une grande prospérité."

                The translation for this is: During the seventeenth century and the eighteenth century, the city's Wallachians maintained continuous trade relations with the countries of Central and Danubian Europe, which brought the city great prosperity.
                Last edited by Carlin; 07-22-2020, 07:01 PM.

                Comment

                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                  I'm quite familiar with Kozani and the theories about its name. I have worked (but not lived) there for a short period and I used to think that I partly (like 1/8th) come from Kozani as my great grant-father (post-1850s) had a second nickname-surname, Kozanitis (i.e. man from Kozani). I only recently learnt that I don’t, and that he was just doing business in Kozani, always travelling there and that’s why they got that surname.
                  Interesting. Are these second "nicknames-surnames" strategies common in modern Greece, based on the scenario you described? That is, your great grant-father was just doing business in Kozani, and ended up with that second surname? If you don't mind, if he was not from Kozani, did you find out where he was originally from?

                  [My great-grandfather was traveling and doing a lot of business in Salonica, but never ended up with any second nicknames-surnames -- at least not that I am aware of.]

                  Comment

                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    The "Hellenism" of the Vlachs in Greece. Surreal. Anyway. If you're suggesting that a lot of Vlachs live in Kozani, I would agree. I have met people from there in the past and they have told me the same, even some of their surnames are a dead giveaway. However, I still don't see the connection between Kozani and this apparent Epirus Kosdiani. Have you found any older sources that refer to Kosdiani anywhere?
                    So, I just found this long 'article' - Kozani: a stab at etymology:
                    Language Hat asks in comments to the previous post about the Wikipedia etymologies of Kozani : According to prevailing opinion, the name co...


                    I won't copy and paste the entire article but here is the conclusion:

                    - "... phonologically the shift from Kósdiani to Kozáni does seem a little forced."
                    - "So the derivation of Kozáni from Kósdiani has problems. But as it turns out, both Kozáni and Kósdiani seem to have a Slavonic origin anyway, so it's a distinction that doesn't matter."

                    Comment

                    • Amphipolis
                      Banned
                      • Aug 2014
                      • 1328

                      Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                      Interesting. Are these second "nicknames-surnames" strategies common in modern Greece, based on the scenario you described? That is, your great grant-father was just doing business in Kozani, and ended up with that second surname? If you don't mind, if he was not from Kozani, did you find out where he was originally from?

                      [My great-grandfather was traveling and doing a lot of business in Salonica, but never ended up with any second nicknames-surnames -- at least not that I am aware of.]
                      He lived in the exact opposite (Eastern) side of Macedonia, in Eleutheroupolis/Pravi. What's weird about this guy is that half of his children (including my grandmother) adopted his original surname while the other half adopted the nickname. My own father didn't really know or care much and the story was clarified for me only 3-4 years ago when I met a cousin that bears the Kozanitis name.

                      It's not uncommon. For instance, the popular author Freddy Germanos has this surname because his grandfather studied in Germany, not because he was German.

                      Comment

                      • Amphipolis
                        Banned
                        • Aug 2014
                        • 1328

                        Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                        So, I just found this long 'article' - Kozani: a stab at etymology:
                        Language Hat asks in comments to the previous post about the Wikipedia etymologies of Kozani : According to prevailing opinion, the name co...


                        I won't copy and paste the entire article but here is the conclusion:

                        - "... phonologically the shift from Kósdiani to Kozáni does seem a little forced."
                        - "So the derivation of Kozáni from Kósdiani has problems. But as it turns out, both Kozáni and Kósdiani seem to have a Slavonic origin anyway, so it's a distinction that doesn't matter."
                        I believe the key info is this

                        The first reference to Kozani is in an Ottoman document of 1498-1502, according to which Kozani is the smallest among 36 settlements of the district (kaza) around the town of Servia.

                        That means that a 100 years after the arrivals described, the name was established and Kozani was the smallest settlement. I don't know if that means 10 or 30 houses, but it's so insignificant that searching who or how or why formed the name is a difficult task and means very little. The same goes for most towns and villages, their very origins are obscure.

                        100 years later, at 1618 Kozani (a solely Christian town) has 200 houses and four churches. Another 100 years later, at 1745 it becomes ecclesiastical capital of the district instead of Servia.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13675

                          Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
                          So, I just found this long 'article' - Kozani: a stab at etymology:
                          Language Hat asks in comments to the previous post about the Wikipedia etymologies of Kozani : According to prevailing opinion, the name co...


                          I won't copy and paste the entire article but here is the conclusion:

                          - "... phonologically the shift from Kósdiani to Kozáni does seem a little forced."
                          - "So the derivation of Kozáni from Kósdiani has problems. But as it turns out, both Kozáni and Kósdiani seem to have a Slavonic origin anyway, so it's a distinction that doesn't matter."
                          Thanks Carlin. Even the OP has the sense to concede it is Macedonian (despite knowing he may receive backlash from his fellow Greeks).
                          [Non-Greeks will notice that I speak vaguely of Slavonic, when we all know *which* Slavonic language I'm talking about. But I'm not feeling like getting into needless argy-bargy with those of my readers who don't want to call it "Macedonian"; and since I'm talking about 1400 and not 1950, I may just get away with it...]
                          I found the comments section below interesting. One guy says it was already called Kozani when the 'Slavs' got there and another is still pushing the Latin Cosa theory. Leaving that stupidity aside, there are some more sensible comments too.
                          Originally posted by Pierre MacKay
                          I know Ko'zani from the almost 6 months I spent walking in the region in 1960—1961 and, when I was there, the dwindling number of Slavophones (they were being persuaded that it would be better for them to move further north) called it Ko'zhani and the Hellenophones called it Ko'zani. That would seem to me to be one of the best arguments for the accent. W. M. Leake, bless him, gives a stress accent for all the contemporary placenames he records, and in his day it was Ko'zani. Felix de Beaujour might also be helpful. But the best source if you need to use toponyms for linguistic history, is the Austrian General Staff maps created in a resurvey between 1890 and about 1915. The surveyors had no loony chauvinist ideas about what they were doing (at least not in the southern Balkans). They recorded what they heard from what they judged to be the majority population of the location. These maps are the last honest historical record from the late Ottoman period and illustrate the delightful “Macédoine” of settlement that survived until the ethnic cleansing that folllowed the first Balkan War. They can be seen at: lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm

                          You don't need to know Hungarian to use this beautifully organized site. Simply find the sheet you need on the general outline and click on it. There is a magnifying glass provided so that you can look at the part you want. Kózani is in the upper right quadrant of sheet 39-40 Joannina. Kozani is spelled out with a diacritical over the z, which indicates that the Austrian surveyors saw it as still predominantly slavophone. Unfortunately, they did not add stress accents.
                          Then there are the comments of this clown below.
                          Originally posted by TAK
                          ......we have to make sure that -an(i) is meaningful in Slavic to justify a Slavic etymology from Kóza (and from what I could find from readings and friends it is not - on this an expert's opinion would be useful and is still required.
                          Umm, is this guy for real? It doesn't take an expert. Just look at a map with place names from Macedonia, both old and new. Zagoričani, Loznani, Dragožani, Raštani, Peštani, Dabjani, Galičani, Vevčani, Topolčani, Količani, Krivogaštani, Studeničani, Kočani, etc.
                          Additionally, from what I know "Kózani" was never generalized among Hellenophones (it is not today and it was not in the early 1990s when I spent a couple of months there as a soldier), and in written Greek sources from the 18th c. onwards the name is exclusively recorded as "Kozáni": you may find examples of such sources in Κοβεντάρειος Βιβλιοθήκη , though the quality is not always great. I restrict myself to two easily readable examples: the first is Megdanis's manuscript that I have already mentioned (the link will take you to p. 6 where Κοζάνη is easily discernible). The second comes from another important local scholar of the period of the Greek Enlightenment, Michail Perdikaris (1766-1828) and it is a manuscript dated in 1805 (the link will take you to the title page where again Κοζάνη is easily discernible). Even if I accepted, for the sake of argument, that in all the period from 18th-20th c. the city was generally called "Kózani" and written "Kozáni", I would still have to explain why this was so, and how, in linguistic terms, "Kózani" became "Kozáni". Does "Kozáni" sound more "Greek" than "Kózani"? I seriously doubt it.
                          Whatever the accent is, the word is not Greek. It is Macedonian, 100%. I think most Macedonians would put the stress on the o rather than the a, so it would be pronounced Kožani rather than Kožani. But perhaps some of the brothers from south of the artificial border can advise how it is pronounced in their dialects.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13675

                            Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                            The original Kostiani or Kostaniani of Epirus is believed to be located North of Premeti (in today's Albania) and had been totally destroyed by the end of that decade (1390s).
                            Is this Kostiani in Epirus mentioned in any contemporary record while it existed?
                            The episode concerning the destruction of Kostiani, is about a woman called Argyro that believed people of Kostiani murdered her son and hired an army of murderers to destroy the village. The migrating populations were trilingual, Greek, Albanian and Vlach.
                            Is the destruction of the village or the migration of the 'trilingual populations' mentioned in any contemporary record around the time it happened?
                            According to Patrinelis, this isn't about Muslim oppression as there were hardly Muslims (around 3%) at that area.
                            That contradicts the other sources you've referenced.
                            The first reference to Kozani is in an Ottoman document of 1498-1502, according to which Kozani is the smallest among 36 settlements of the district (kaza) around the town of Servia. That means that a 100 years after the arrivals described, the name was established and Kozani was the smallest settlement.
                            Are you suggesting the name changed from Kosdiani to Kozani in 100 years? Were there any Ottoman surveys or census' in the area prior to 1498?
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Karposh
                              Member
                              • Aug 2015
                              • 863

                              ...We have to make sure that ani is meaningful in Slavic to justify a Slavic etymology from Koza (and from what I could find from readings and friends, it is not). On this, an expert's opinion would be useful and is still required.
                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              Umm, is this guy for real? It doesn't take an expert. Just look at a map with place names from Macedonia, both old and new. Zagoričani, Loznani, Dragožani, Raštani, Peštani, Dabjani, Galičani, Vevčani, Topolčani, Količani, Krivogaštani, Studeničani, Kočani, etc.
                              A quick Google search for village names in the republic from different regions gave me the following village names ending in ani. There were many also with the suffix eni and I though it was worthwhile listing them as well (I have shown them in red). Obviously the list below is not exhaustive ad is only scratching the surface as I couldn't be bothered researching other municipalities but I think we get the picture. You mentioned some from Aegean Macedonia too SOM. I'm sure there are many more village names over there that end with the suffix ani.

                              The idiot making the observation that he can't find any meaningful examples of the suffix's use in "Slavic" and that an expert is needed to verify any findings is ether willfully ignorant or a complete numbskull.

                              Bitola Region:
                              • Bareshani
                              • Crnichani
                              • Dragozhani
                              • Karamani
                              • Kazhani
                              • Kukurechani
                              • Loznani
                              • Novoselani
                              • Obershani
                              • Rashtani
                              • Sekirani
                              • Zlokukyani
                              • Dobroveni
                              • Oleveni
                              • Zhabeni


                              Prespa Region:
                              • Podmochani
                              • Krani
                              • Ezerani
                              • Drmeni
                              • Kriveni
                              • Gorno Dupeni
                              • Dolno Dupeni


                              Ohrid Region
                              • Elshani
                              • Peshtani
                              • Trojani

                              Prilep Region
                              • Galichani
                              • Peshtani
                              • Smolani
                              • Topolchani
                              • Veprchani
                              • Veselchani
                              • Zagorani

                              Veles Region
                              • Novochani
                              • Rashtani

                              Kavadarci Region
                              • Brushani
                              • Koshani

                              Comment

                              • Karposh
                                Member
                                • Aug 2015
                                • 863

                                The derivation of the name Metsovo—from the words Mitsous and Mesovounon or from the unattested Slav word *Mẹčovo, meaning bear-place—which has been proposed by academics and historians, is not confirmed by linguistic research. On the contrary, there appears to be an etymological relation between the Vlach Minʤu and the Greek Metsovo, the latter being a combination of the stem Mets and the Slavic-ending ovo.
                                Mechovo is apparently an unattested Slavic word for the place name Metsovo according to the genius in the above quote before he/she goes onto clumsily sell the case for a Vlach or Greek derivation for the word. However, the case for a Macedonian origin of the name grows stronger when you consider that, in Macedonian, the diminutive form of Mechka (a bear) is Metsa. Often, when parents speak to their children (especially during story time) a bear is often referred to as “Baba Metsa” that is, Grandma Bear. Regardless of whether the original word was Mechovo and the current term, Metsovo, an apparent bastardisation of the original, both Mechovo and Metsovo work in Macedonian and have exactly the same meaning. The latter being a term of endearment for a bear.

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