The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece
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The contrast of Gothic toponyms in Italy and the Slavic toponyms in Greece is very interesting.
''Despite a sustained Lombard presence, the region has few Germanic toponyms.''
The Medieval Salento explores the visual and material culture of people who lived and died in this region between the ninth and fifteenth centuries, showing the ways Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roman-rite Christians used images, artifacts, and texts in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin to construct both independent and intersecting identities.
''All the Germanic placenames that do exist in Italy are only attached to small settlements, and it is noteworthy that no sixth-centry source refers to a single one.''
The barbarians of the fifth and sixth centuries were long thought to be races, tribes or ethnic groups who toppled the Roman Empire and racist, nationalist assumptions about the composition of the barbarian groups still permeate much scholarship on the subject. This book proposes a new view, through a case-study of the Goths of Italy between 489 and 554. It contains a detailed examination of the personal details and biographies of 379 individuals and compares their behaviour with ideological texts of the time. This inquiry suggests wholly new ways of understanding the appearance of barbarian groups and the end of the western Roman Empire, as well as proposing new models of regional and professional loyalty and group cohesion. In addition, the book proposes a complete reinterpretation of the evolution of Christian conceptions of community, and of so-called 'Germanic' Arianism.
Given the fact that Italy had 18,100,000 inhabitants in 1800, there were less Germanic toponyms in the whole of Italy than the 350-450 Slavic toponyms of Peloponnese with a population of 330,000 in 1800.
The Germanic impact in the gene pool of Italians is around 10% to 15%, so you have your conclusions.Last edited by tchaiku; 03-30-2020, 04:16 AM.
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Year 1814: Aetolia, now called Vlakia
A Sketch of Modern and Antient Geography ... Third edition, By Samuel Butler, 1814.
Page 150:
"West of Locris, Phocis, and Doris, was Aetolia, now called Vlakia, from the Valaques, settled there by the Greek Emperors, having the Sinus Corinthiacus for its Southern, the river Achelous for its Western, and Thessaly for its Northern boundary."
Greek Emperors = Byzantine or Roman Emperors
Sinus Corinthiacus = the Gulf of Corinth or the Gulf of Lepanto: the gulf between Northern Greece or Hellas Proper, and the Peloponnesus. It commenced, according to Strabo (viii. p.335, seq.), at the mouth of the Evenus in Aetolia (some said at the mouth of the Achelous) and the promontory Araxus in Achaia, and extended to the Isthmus of Corinth. It consisted of two distant portions, an outer and an inner sea, separated from one another by the narrow strait, between the promontories Rhium and Antirrhium.
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Aromanians are Romanian-speaking people located in the Balkan Peninsula - chiefly in Epirus and Macedonia. Historically identified with the former Ottoman Empire, a significant number of Aromanians now live in Romania itself. Largely autobiographical, this book is an account of the culture, lifestyle and civilization of the Aromanian people by an ethnologist and social anthropologist of Aromanian origin.
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"Northern Aetolia remains a desolate region, inhabited mainly by Vlach shepherds."
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Originally posted by tchaiku View PostCarlin here is how I see it:
Thrace:Slavs>Vlachs>Albanians
Macedonia: Slavs > Vlachs> Albanians
Epirus: Albanians> Vlachs> Slavs
Thessaly: Vlachs>Slavs>Albanians
Attico-Boetia: Albanians>Vlachs>Slavs
Euboea: Albanians>Vlachs>Slavs
Continental Greece (& Euboea): Greek>Turkish>Armenian>Albanian>Vlach
Peloponnesus: Greek>Albanian>Turkish>Gypsy>Armenian
Ionian Islands: Greek>Turkish>Armenian>Albanian>Italian
Thessaly: Greek>Vlach>Turkish>Gypsy>Latino-Jewish
Macedonia: Greek(92,9%)>Turkish(3,3%)>Slavic(2,4%)>Vlach(0,7%)>Gypsy(0,2%)
Epirus: Greek>Vlach>Albanian>Turkish>Gypsy
Crete: Greek>Turkish>Armenian>French=English
Aegean Islands: Greek>Turkish>Slavic>Romanian>Armenian
Thrace: Greek>Turkish>Pomak>Albanian>Gypsy
==Last edited by Amphipolis; 04-25-2020, 03:22 PM.
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Originally posted by Amphipolis View PostBased on the 1951 census, 5 biggest ethnic groups (based on mother language), bold when exceeding 1%
Continental Greece (& Euboea): Greek>Turkish>Armenian>Albanian>Vlach
Peloponnesus: Greek>Albanian>Turkish>Gypsy>Armenian
Ionian Islands: Greek>Turkish>Armenian>Albanian>Italian
Thessaly: Greek>Vlach>Turkish>Gypsy>Latino-Jewish
Macedonia: Greek(92,9%)>Turkish(3,3%)>Slavic(2,4%)>Vlach(0,7%)>Gypsy(0,2%)
Epirus: Greek>Vlach>Albanian>Turkish>Gypsy
Crete: Greek>Turkish>Armenian>French=English
Aegean Islands: Greek>Turkish>Slavic>Romanian>Armenian
Thrace: Greek>Turkish>Pomak>Albanian>Gypsy
==
For the most part, we are talking about ethnic and linguistic population groups that have historically inhabited the various regions of modern Greece, prior to the modern era.
For example, your 1951 census figures do not change the fact that Bernard Randolph (year 1687) reported that the Christian population of Euboea was in his day almost entirely Albanian.
Another example would be Maria Efthimiou, a modern Greek historian, who teaches World History and Greek History of the Turkish occupation period:
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This has been repeatedly debunked. Look back at posts #414 and #415 for a start.
It would be great if this woman had produced research related to her claims. No, she hasn't.
===Last edited by Amphipolis; 04-26-2020, 12:10 AM.
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Maria Efthimiou is a respected modern Greek historian and not a malicious "foreigner", or somebody that does not have credentials. I've seen her appear on Greek TV programs and is usually attacked for her views by Greek nationalists such as yourself. Do you not think she might be familiar with all theories or claims that allegedly debunk her statements or numbers? Now, she might not be 100% correct but neither are claims that Albanians were less than 5-10% when we know that entire regions (south of Thessaly) were still compactly settled and inhabited by descendants of ethnic Albanians at the close of the 18th century.
I respect people's right to self-identity and nationality, but exchanging your mother tongue for modern Greek in the 19th century does not make those people ancient Hellenes.
Unrelated:
Nicholas Geoffrey Hammond places the foundation of Preveza at the end of the 14th century, possibly by Albanians. In the book "Octavian's Campsite Memorial for the Actian War" (by William Michael Murray, Photios Michael Petsas) it is stated on page 153 that Preveza was not attested until the beginning of the 15th century when Albanians were settled at the entrance of the Ambracian Gulf.Last edited by Carlin; 04-26-2020, 07:55 AM.
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I'm not a Greek nationalist. Unfortunately, I checked her scientific profile and could hardly locate international publications or citations to her work. So yes, I guess in this case she pulled the number out of her ass.
She doesn't have a google scholar profile, her name is too common, she uses alternate names, most of her work is before the internet era etc. If there IS such an effort in her work, feel free to find it yourself, it won't be very easy. Send her an e-mail.
Lithoxoou is an anti-Greek activist and an amateur "historian" who can... count and at least he made an effort, proving that however you overblow the numbers of Albanians they don't exceed 10%.
===Last edited by Amphipolis; 04-26-2020, 09:18 AM.
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Originally posted by Amphipolis View PostI'm not a Greek nationalist. Unfortunately, I checked her scientific profile and could hardly locate international publications or citations to her work. So yes, I guess in this case she pulled the number out of her ass.
She doesn't have a google scholar profile, her name is too common, she uses alternate names, most of her work is before the internet era etc. If there IS such an effort in her work, feel free to find it yourself, it won't be very easy. Send her an e-mail.
Lithoxoou is an anti-Greek activist and an amateur "historian" who can... count and at least he made an effort, proving that however you overblow the numbers of Albanians they don't exceed 10%.
===
The reason why it decrease is that many Arvanites from Attica, for example moved to Athens as well as other rural zones, and there was a migration of other Greeks from outside the borders.
The figure of Arvanites that Lixouthou gave refers after many other regions of Greece were joined into the Greek state in 1907.
In 1890 Arvanites are counted as 12.5% of Peloponnese including the islands and 10% of mainland Peloponnese. With that being said many Arvanite villages, especially outside of Argolis, were omitted in those maps especially those in northwestern mountains of Peloponnese.
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Carlin - The fact that Thessaly was once called Great Vlachia could suggest that it was overpopulated by Vlachs. Do you think so too?
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LOL, I think you know my opinion on the matter.
I found the following to be noteworthy. It comes from a book by Abdolonyme Ubicini "Letters on Turkey" published in 1856.
Page 174: "... they take pride in the appellation of Roumouns or Roumains. The Greeks call them Vlaques, and the Sclavonians Zingaris. A document recently published at Athens computes the number of Zingaris dispersed through Greece and the Turkish provinces of Thessaly and Macedonia at 600,000."
600,000 "dispersed" through Greece (and the provinces of Thessaly and Macedonia) is still a staggering number -- in the year 1856. The author then states how this number is "probably an exaggeration", based on other figures/census. I would consider it understated. (In 1756, as opposed to say 1856, the number of Vlach-speakers would have been even greater and more "shocking".)
It's "problematic" because this number was given in A document recently published at Athens. What was the name of this document? Was it published in the years prior to 1856? What happened to this document? Ubicini obviously saw it or read about it -- and reported on it.
Why would official Athens provide this number? Today, there are only a couple of thousand Vlach-speakers in Greece but extrapolating "600,000" to today's numbers in Greece, and accounting for natural population growth, etc........does not produce a couple of thousand Vlach-speakers.Last edited by Carlin; 05-08-2020, 09:18 PM.
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