The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Carlin]

I think Hellas means Thessaly in this context.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_(theme)

There are a few possible meanings here, but Hellas=Thessaly in this context is likely based on an (incorrect) assumption, in my opinion, that Vlachs lived primarily/only in Thessaly.

If Kekaumenos meant Hellas=Thessaly in this context, why did he not apply the same "context" to the regions of Epirus or Macedonia as well? Why did he not use the "terms" Nicopolis or Thessalonica?



FYI - note that the Theme of Hellas included not just Thessaly, but the entirety of Boeotia, Attica and Euboea (and some smaller nearby islands). The Theme of Hellas literally touches on Corinth.

And... We have an 11th century Testimony which states that “Sikyon is in the country of VLACHIA IN HELLAS” (= Σικυών εστιν η χώρα των Ελλαδικών Βλάχων).

And famously, Sikyon is the city in Corinth region - the capital Corinth which Roman settlers rebuilt and dwelt in.


From the language of the people living there came the numerous "Vlach" toponyms in the Peloponnese, such as Mounte Skouve / Munte Skuve.


Above is Page 70 from the book "The Origins of Vlachs", by Sokratis Liakos. Original post - link:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=165215&postcount=60

Google search results for "Σικυών εστιν η χώρα των Ελλαδικών Βλάχων" in Johannes Tzetzes and Marcianus:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=J79OX7uSWiYC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=%CE%A3%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%85%CF%8E%CE%BD+%CE%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BD+%CE%B7+%CF%87%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B1+%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD+%CE%95%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8E%CE%BD+%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CF%89%CE%BD&source=bl&ots=7ozSKzugee&sig=ACfU3U2lr2rh-E79dynMTQjmSPvyZQp93g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjuutz7--fhAhVErlkKHW7nAc8Q6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%CE%A3%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%85%CF%8E%CE%BD%20%CE%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BD%20%CE%B7%20%CF%87%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B1%20%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD%20%CE%95%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8E%CE%BD%20%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CF%89%CE%BD&f=false

https://books.google.ca/books?id=fXI-AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=%CE%A3%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%85%CF%8E%CE%BD+%CE%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BD+%CE%B7+%CF%87%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B1+%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD+%CE%95%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8E%CE%BD+%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CF%89%CE%BD&source=bl&ots=SxKS7c5bko&sig=ACfU3U2yTSuG6mTIAxUnQ6GVahbfhJuzow&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjuutz7--fhAhVErlkKHW7nAc8Q6AEwAHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=%CE%A3%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%85%CF%8E%CE%BD%20%CE%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BD%20%CE%B7%20%CF%87%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B1%20%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD%20%CE%95%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8E%CE%BD%20%CE%92%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%87%CF%89%CE%BD&f=false

[tchaiku]

For Carlin - Look it this way Epirus and Macedonia were a part of Greece, then why did the author specify it that way. He could've said most Vlachs live in Hellas without mentioning the other part.
Now what you assumed would apply in this context eg:
Vlachs are spread over Albania but most of them live in Greece.

[Carlin]

For Carlin - Look it this way Epirus and Macedonia were a part of Greece, then why did the author specify it that way. He could've said most Vlachs live in Hellas without mentioning the other part.
Now what you assumed would apply in this context eg:
Vlachs are spread over Albania but most of them live in Greece.

Could you elaborate?

Why do you think that Thessaly=Hellas?

From the wiki link you provided we can read the following about Hellas (the "boundaries" of Hellas were obviously in flux):

- During the 10th and 11th centuries, Hellas was often governed jointly with the Peloponnese under a single strategos, and as the civilian administration rose in importance, the same practice appears there as well, with protonotarioi, praetores and kritai being appointed for both themes.

- Thessaly appears to have been detached from Hellas and joined to the theme of Thessalonica from the early 11th century—though the Spercheios valley remained part of Hellas—until sometime in the 12th century.

- The strategos of Hellas is still attested for much of the 11th century, and a doux of Thebes and Euripus after the middle of the 12th century.


My basic point here is that Vlachs lived in Hellas, and the "boundaries" of this Hellas seemed to have changed over time. What did Kekaumenos mean by it? Did he mean only Thessaly? Possible, and if so, why and how was this concluded?

"Hellas" could have easily encompassed areas adjacent and/or south of Thessaly (i.e. the testimony “Sikyon is in the country of VLACHIA IN HELLAS” is a good indication of it).

[Carlin]

Andreas Tzimas (Greek: Ανδρέας Τζήμας; Kastoria, 1 September 1909 – Prague, 1 December 1972), known also under his World War II-era nom de guerre of Vasilis Samariniotis, was a leading Greek Communist politician, best known as one of the leading triumvirate of the Greek People's Liberation Army during the Axis occupation of Greece. After the war, he fell into disfavour and died in obscurity in exile in Prague.

URL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Tzimas

- The eldest of four children, Tzimas was born to the family of Dimitrios Tzimas, a Vlach jurist and lawyer from Samarina. His mother, Ourania Alvanou, came from Moschopolis in what is now Albania. Born in Kastoria, Tzimas spent his first years in Skopje, where his father had moved, until the Balkan Wars led the family to relocate once more to Kastoria, which now had passed from the Ottoman Empire to the Kingdom of Greece.

- He was imprisoned in the Akronauplia prison, where he remained until after the German invasion of Greece. He was released by the new German authorities on 1 July 1941 due to the intervention of the Bulgarian government, which sought the release of any prisoners of Macedonian descent, who were deemed to be pro-Bulgarian. Although not a Macedonian himself, Tzimas spoke the language, and managed to be released as well (along with a few others like him).

- Despite his distinguished role in the Greek Resistance, after liberation he fell into disfavour with the party establishment: his failure to be elected to the Central Committee in 1945 was followed by his arrest and exile to Ikaria.

[Carlin]

URL:

http://web.rgzm.de/en/exhibitions-events/news-details/article/the-slavs-in-the-peloponnese-new-evidence-from-rescue-excavations-in-arcadia.html

The Slavs in the Peloponnese: New evidence from rescue excavations in Arcadia

Vortrag von Dr. Demetrios Athanasoulis (Athen)

Within the years 2009-2010, the former 25th Ephorate of Byzantine Antiquities conducted numerous rescue excavations in the prefecture of Arcadia during the construction of a new national road crossing the Peloponnese. This public project was an opportunity for new archaeological investigations concerning the unknown settlement history in the Peloponnese during the Dark Ages and the Middle Byzantine Period.

Among the most interesting discoveries were two cemeteries of the 7th-9th/10th c., consisting of pits with cremation urns, being undeniably a burial custom linked with Early Slavic populations and reflecting the migration and installation of the Slavs in the very south of the Byzantine Empire. In particular, in one of the cemeteries appeared graves with inhumations next to traditional cremations, reflecting furthermore the process of the Christianization of the Slavs during the Middle Ages. Slavic burial practices were also detectable in a Christian cemetery of the Byzantine period by the presence of a cremation urn among the inhumations, but also by finds of slow wheel made pots in some of the graves.

These unique archaeological findings were the starting point to establish a research group to examine the still unknown Slavic culture of the Byzantine Peloponnese. Aim of this lecture is, to give an insight into the current state of this research.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Excerpt from the American 'Brownsville Daily Herald', published on 6th August 1902.

[Risto the Great]

I can't find Salesi on the map.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

I can't find Salesi on the map.

The name may have changed or the village could simply not exist anymore. Also very possible the name was just incorrectly recorded which isn't uncommon from foreign newspapers in regards to the Balkans at the time.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Risto I found the village here under the new name of Avlonas. It was changed in 1927, a period in which the Greek government pursued a policy to Hellenise all the country's toponyms. The name 'Salesi' to me sounds like an Albanisation of a Romance word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avlonas,_Attica

[Risto the Great]

Thanks mate. I also came across that village name on Google as soon as I searched for Salesi. So many skeletons in the closet of our Southern neighbours.

[Carlin]

Salesi is just one village, one example.

The whole of Attica was an Arvanite province. According to George Finlay (in 1861) "Albanian colonists now occupy all Attica and Megaris, with the exception of the towns of Athens and Megara, where they form only a portion of the population." Furthermore, in the book "Greek Dress: From Ancient Times to the Early 20th Century" by Iōanna Papantōniou it says that "...costume in Attica was therefore associated with the Arvanites..."

Also, a report from 1820 explicitly states that one third of Athens and much of Attica spoke Albanian. So many skeletons it is starting to look like Coco.

[Carlin]

Sofoklis DOUSMANIS and Viktor DOUSMANIS

[Carlin]

Dionysios Pyrros, Venice 1810



"You may never want to call yourself Romaioi, but Hellenes, because the Romaioi, that is, the Romanoi, barbarized and made Greece (their?) home. And if you have a new name that is Roman, Jewish, Russian, Arabic, you must change it to a Hellenic name, namely Miltiades, Themistocles, Achilles, Theseus, Alexander, Plato, Demosthenes, etc..."


[Romaioi = Romanoi = Romans]

[Carlin]

1) Armenian Mekhitarists built a monastery in the Peloponnese

URL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mekhitarists

"In 1700 Mekhitar went to Istanbul and began to gather disciples around him. Mechitar formally joined the Latin Church, and in 1701, with sixteen companions, he formed a religious institute of which he became the superior. They encountered the opposition of other Armenians and were compelled to move to the Morea (Peloponnese), at that time Venetian territory, where they built a monastery in 1706."

2) ARMENIANS IN CRETE

URL:

https://www.facebook.com/139336529442143/posts/-armenians-in-crete-is-an-article-and-short-historical-glance-about-the-armenian/1440907399285043/

"THE ARMENIAN PRESENCE in the island goes back to 961, when the Byzantine Emperor of ARMENIAN descent, Nicephoros Phocas liberated Crete from the Arab conquerors. The deed was realized with the help of thousand of soldiers of the Armeniacon Thema, the military bases on the borders of Armenia. After completing the mission, the Armenian soldiers made roots all over the island, giving their native country's name to villages (Armeni, Armenokhori, Armenogeia), to summer places (Amari), to different sites (Armenocambos, Armenopetra). Their influence was extended to the architecture, to the vocabulary, to the dress and the preference of black colour, to the boots and head cover, even to some habits as the use of weapons during feasts, the artcraft of Armenian knifes, the vengeance."

3)

[Carlin]

Agia (Greek: Αγιά, also written Ayia) is a village and a municipality in the Larissa regional unit, Thessaly, Greece. Agia is located east of Larissa and south of Melivoia. The Mavrovouni mountains dominate the south and the Aegean Sea lies to the east.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agia,_Larissa

URL:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BfYv4zS-t3EJ:https://pneumatikocentroagias.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/%25CE%25B7-%25CE%25B1%25CE%25B3%25CE%25B9%25CE%25B1-%25CF%2583%25CF%2584%25CE%25B7%25CE%25BD-%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B8%25CF%2589%25CE%25BC%25CE%25B1%25CE%25BD%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BA%25CE%25B7-%25CE%25B4%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BA%25CE%25B7%25CF%2584%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BA%25CE%25B7-%25CF%2585%25CF%2580%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B4/+&cd=1&hl=el&ct=clnk&gl=gr&client=firefox-b-d

In the Ottoman census of the year 1455 of the Agia village there are last names like Servos (one full name is recorded as 'Ivanis Servos'), Slavos, Bratois, Kravanidis, Kraslavos, Gaikos, Suhias, Vuikos, Nenadas, Staikos, Stoviravos and others.

Also there are first names like Ivanis, Dobros, Traikos, Milos, Vlados, Stoianos, Nenadas, Vetikos, etc. Widow Mila, widow Petrana, widow Vlasina, widow Dobrina and many more.

(There are also a few last names such as Vlachos, Arvanitis, Moraitis, Muzakis.)

Some examples of full names:
- Dobros Moraitis
- Stoianos Moraitis
- Ivanis Servos
- Vetikos Servos
- Staikos Servos
- Magos Servos
- Staikos Dermanos
- Nikolas Arvanitis
- Nenadas Arvanitis
- Gazos Arvanitis
- Ginis Vlachos
- Traikos Leontaris
- Giorgos Zagorinos
- Purdanos Kraslavos
- Thodoros Velikas
- Vlados Vlasis
- Ginis Nenadas