The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[tchaiku]

I moved this here:

Balkan is a classification specifically made by MyHeritage to denote South Slavic ancestry, which is a combination of incoming Slavic tribes in the Early Middle Ages, and assimilated Thracians, Illyrians, Dacians etc. Since Albanians are a Paleo-Balkanic people without (major) Slavic ancestry.. they do not score this in great amounts. Matter of fact, I have seen Greeks score more of this, especially northern Greeks score around 30% Balkan, than Albanians.


My impression is that Balkan stands for Ancient Thracians (and Illyrians maybe), not for Slavs. A Northern Greek having 30% Balkan seems normal. I’m 50% Northern Greek (Macedonian & Thracian) let’s see how much Balkan I will score.

That's it. No other classification than 'Greek', a fellow Paleo-Balkanic ethnic group, that makes the slightest sense for Albanians to score in their results. It does not matter whether it is South or north, Tosk or Gheg Albanians we are speaking of, they score 'Greek' because that is the only ethnic group in MyHeritage's database genetically closest to them. It has nothing to do with Tosks having some Greek ancestors, Kosovars also score loads of 'Greek' and often even more than actual Greeks.


That’s an interesting DNA classification problem. My understanding is that Albanians, a separate people, with a separate language and NO brotherly populations SHOULD have some major differences in their DNA. One company cannot separate Greeks from Italians another company seems to achieve this successfully. I knew all Scandinavians are one people but I’m impressed no company can separate German and French people.

My father took a Myheritage DNA test, he is both Kosovar and Greek, and he turned out to be 67.1% 'Greek'. His Greek side is from the Peleponnese and northern Greece, where the people do have quite some foreign admixture thus if he were only Greek he would not score more than 60% Greek, and his Albanian side is obviously from Kosovo, a region with absolutely no historical Greek population. A Gheg (northern) Albanian I met on the internet showed his results and they said he is 94% Greek.


These are not the strangest results. Overall Albanian results do not exist yet, so I don’t know what Albanians would expect as normal.

'Greek' includes the descendants of other Paleo-Balkanic peoples with little Slavic ancestry, so does it include many west Anatolian ancient nations such as Carians, Lydians, Lycians, Mysians, Bithynians etc. It is a big mistake for companies to call the classification they make for the Greek people 'Greek' if they do not make seperate additional classifications to represent Albanians and ancient Anatolian ancestry, who otherwise just fall under the ‘Greek’ section. Thus one should take their results with a grain of salt.


I believe Slavs are clustered in the “Eastern Europe” category and most of the other people in “West Asia”

Look at Albanians and mainland Greeks:



They barely differ. Illyrians, Thracians, Italians and Hellenes did not have a major genetic distance. Similar to north Germans and Dutch.
There is no ''Greek'' gene or ''Thracian'' gene.

[Amphipolis]

Everything seems normal in this diagram, but you have to understand that every dot is simply ONE person and the DNA cmpanies utilize much more info than two indices. Having said that, this diagram DOES separate Germans and French.

[maco2envy]

DNA companies utilize much more info than two indices

Pretty sure the above is Principle Component Analysis. There could be 100's of variables involved which they project into to a 2D plane (like the one above). So you're right that each dot represents one person, but I'm sure there is much more information involved than two variables.

[tchaiku]

Everything seems normal in this diagram, but you have to understand that every dot is simply ONE person and the DNA cmpanies utilize much more info than two indices. Having said that, this diagram DOES separate Germans and French.

Academic PCA works are MUCH more accurate. Other than the fact that it can be influenced by political agenda.

Besides when you said that it is normal for Albanians to score ''Greek'' (not that it bothers me) did you mean Greek literally?

Autosomal DNA cannot tell you are Greek or Italian in percentage. It can tell you that you are GENETICALLY close to Greeks or that you had some cousins in Greece in the past 200-300 years, but it ends there.

This Cypriot guys scores more than 50% Greek:
Gedmatch.com Eurogenes K13 Results:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Cyprian 5.9
2 Lebanese_Muslim 9.67
3 Sephardic_Jewish 10.2
4 Algerian_Jewish 10.35
5 South_Italian 10.71
6 Tunisian_Jewish 10.73
7 Italian_Jewish 11.3
8 Syrian 11.5
9 Ashkenazi 11.55
10 Libyan_Jewish 11.66
11 East_Sicilian 11.69
12 Central_Greek 12.18
13 Samaritan 13.19
14 Lebanese_Christian 13.75
15 Turkish 14.12
16 Lebanese_Druze 14.52
17 Jordanian 15.08
18 Assyrian 15.64
19 Palestinian 15.78
20 Italian_Abruzzo 16.04

He is closer to Lebanese than Italians.

[tchaiku]

Basically what Howell is saying; is that old Greek is no longer spoken like it used to be ... well well neither is today. The Greek language that Romans used was not Doric, Ionic, Aeolic or any other native Hellenic dialect. They used Koine Greek. Which is what this is all about.

The author did not imply that there were no Greek speakers. He, however, leaves an important note that Slavonic is spoken in Epirus and Macedonia. Macedonia is an other story, but weren't Slavs in Epirus hellenized much earlier? Also did Albanians and Vlachs become the next dominant element in the region?

*Region not religion. Grammar mistake.

[Carlin]

- Vlach villages of Karpenissi, lingustically Hellenized (abandoned Vlach)
- Vlach villages of Agrafa, linguistically Hellenized (abandoned Vlach)
- Vlach villages of Gkiona, Lidoriki, Karoutes, Sykia, etc. linguistically Hellenized (abandoned Vlach) starting from the 18th century



- Vlach villages of Mount Oeta, Ypati areas linguistically Hellenized (abandoned Vlach) starting from the 18th century
- Vlach villages of Artotina, Mousounitsa, Kostarsa, Paliokatouna, etc. linguistically Hellenized (abandoned Vlach)



From the book oi ellinovlachoi (armanoi) by giorgis exarchos - pages 157 and 158.

[Carlin]

Histoire de la Grčce moderne, 1828-2012: mythes et réalités - Pages 14 and 15, by Nicolas Bloudanis.

URL:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=9ZhJAQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Histoire+de+la+Gr%C3%A8ce+moderne,+1828-2012:+mythes+et+r%C3%A9alit%C3%A9s&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK0KSvhdDdAhUk64MKHQ_qALkQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=Histoire%20de%20la%20Gr%C3%A8ce%20moderne%2C%201828-2012%3A%20mythes%20et%20r%C3%A9alit%C3%A9s&f=false

Pg. 14 top:

The populations of the Greek space thus keep their own traditions, a mixture of Christianized Hellenism and cultures and languages specific to each ethnic group, mainly Albanian, Vlach and Latin (Italian). The whole Christian population, including the Balkan Slavs, is the "Rum millet", the "Roman Nation", in fact "Greek".

Pg. 14 bottom/Pg. 15 top:

The immense majority of the population remains practically illiterate, as indeed in many countries of Europe until the 18th century. The population retains only a vague memory of its past, through folk tales and songs, most of which relate to the Byzantine period, but some also to antiquity, and which are transmitted from generation to generation.

As for the Greek language, it is conserved essentially in the Church: the popular language is a set of dialects: Vlach, Arvanite or Levantine, according to the regions, in which Greek words are mixed with Romanian, Albanian or Italian.

At the beginning of the 19th century, there emerges a Greece very different from the image that the West has received since the Renaissance, that of classical Antiquity. The Greeks of 1821 are the result of an important brewing of populations and a path that is Christian, Byzantine, then Ottoman. They are a long way from Homer, Pericles or Aristotle, even if they feel a nebulous memory and a mythical attachment for this past.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Histoire de la Grčce moderne, 1828-2012: mythes et réalités - Pages 14 and 15, by Nicolas Bloudanis.

URL:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=9ZhJAQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Histoire+de+la+Gr%C3%A8ce+moderne,+1828-2012:+mythes+et+r%C3%A9alit%C3%A9s&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK0KSvhdDdAhUk64MKHQ_qALkQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=Histoire%20de%20la%20Gr%C3%A8ce%20moderne%2C%201828-2012%3A%20mythes%20et%20r%C3%A9alit%C3%A9s&f=false

Pg. 14 top:

The populations of the Greek space thus keep their own traditions, a mixture of Christianized Hellenism and cultures and languages specific to each ethnic group, mainly Albanian, Vlach and Latin (Italian). The whole Christian population, including the Balkan Slavs, is the "Rum millet", the "Roman Nation", in fact "Greek".

Pg. 14 bottom/Pg. 15 top:

The immense majority of the population remains practically illiterate, as indeed in many countries of Europe until the 18th century. The population retains only a vague memory of its past, through folk tales and songs, most of which relate to the Byzantine period, but some also to antiquity, and which are transmitted from generation to generation.

As for the Greek language, it is conserved essentially in the Church: the popular language is a set of dialects: Vlach, Arvanite or Levantine, according to the regions, in which Greek words are mixed with Romanian, Albanian or Italian.

At the beginning of the 19th century, there emerges a Greece very different from the image that the West has received since the Renaissance, that of classical Antiquity. The Greeks of 1821 are the result of an important brewing of populations and a path that is Christian, Byzantine, then Ottoman. They are a long way from Homer, Pericles or Aristotle, even if they feel a nebulous memory and a mythical attachment for this past.

This is really interesting. What is Levantine? Never heard of it.

[Carlin]

This is really interesting. What is Levantine? Never heard of it.

I may be mistaken, but I think that Levantine is a term applied to the Catholic populations of various medieval states. These included the Crusader states, the Latin Empire, the possessions of Venice, the late Byzantium, and later the Ottoman Empire. Nowadays the term is sometimes used to refer to their descendants residing in Turkey and the Middle East.

"Levantines were mostly of Italian (especially Venetian and Genoese), French, or other Euro-Mediterranean origin."

URL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Church_in_the_Middle_East

In the French version of the same wikipedia page, I found this:

Nowadays in Turkey, the term "Levantine" refers only to Turkish nationals of Western origin. Their surnames were adapted during the writing reforms (1928). In Istanbul there are still large Levantine families, generally French-speaking: Alyont (Alléon), Baltacı (Baltazzi), Bastiyon (Bastion), Boduyi (Baudouy), Dandriya (D'Andria), Döhoşpiye (De Hochepied), Glavani (Glavany), Jiro (Giraud), Kaporal (Caporal), Kasanova (Casanova), Kastelli (Castelli), Korpi (Corpi), Krepen (Crespin), Kuto (Coűteaux), Lombardi, Marmara, Tomaselli... ... etc.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

I may be mistaken, but I think that Levantine is a term applied to the Catholic populations of various medieval states. These included the Crusader states, the Latin Empire, the possessions of Venice, the late Byzantium, and later the Ottoman Empire. Nowadays the term is sometimes used to refer to their descendants residing in Turkey and the Middle East.

"Levantines were mostly of Italian (especially Venetian and Genoese), French, or other Euro-Mediterranean origin."

URL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Church_in_the_Middle_East

In the French version of the same wikipedia page, I found this:

Nowadays in Turkey, the term "Levantine" refers only to Turkish nationals of Western origin. Their surnames were adapted during the writing reforms (1928). In Istanbul there are still large Levantine families, generally French-speaking: Alyont (Alléon), Baltacı (Baltazzi), Bastiyon (Bastion), Boduyi (Baudouy), Dandriya (D'Andria), Döhoşpiye (De Hochepied), Glavani (Glavany), Jiro (Giraud), Kaporal (Caporal), Kasanova (Casanova), Kastelli (Castelli), Korpi (Corpi), Krepen (Crespin), Kuto (Coűteaux), Lombardi, Marmara, Tomaselli... ... etc.

Here it is referred to as a language though? It can't be Vlach as it is distinguished from that already

[Carlin]

Here it is referred to as a language though? It can't be Vlach as it is distinguished from that already

Levantine = Italian (Venetian and Genoese), French languages/dialects, etc.

[tchaiku]

Google Translation -

Transportation Vlachs in Asia Minor

Manolis Kontosteliou

One of the largest population movements happened in Greece was the mass migration of Epirus Vlach settlements which began the 17th, continued in the 18th century and peaked in the 19th century. Migratory waves initially focused mainly on the Danube and then the Ottoman hinterland.

The main reasons that prompted the residents of Epirus in search of a better life were:

a) The revolutionary movements of 1600 and 1611 with the participation of Christians in Epirus and Thessaly in response to the call of Bishop Dionysios the Philosopher

b) The gradual limitation of the number of villages falling under privileged membership status

c) The overpopulation of mountain communities and

d) unknown factors like frequent epidemics and natural disasters.

... seek to examine the largely unknown relocation Vlachs in Asia Minor, ..... references and researchers on the topic.

I just read about the resettlement of Christians from Epirus in Bithynia in 17th century. Not sure if they were Vlachs ...

[Carlin]

I just read about the resettlement of Christians from Epirus in Bithynia in 17th century. Not sure if they were Vlachs ...

Where did you read it?

[tchaiku]

Where did you read it?

We know that there was movement of Greek populations within the Ottoman Empire; we know for example that Bithynia was resettled from Epirus in the 17th century, and we know that the Tsakonian colony near Erdek/Artaki cannot have been indigenous, and likely dates from the 18th century.

http://hellenisteukontos.opoudjis.net/2017-04-20-why-did-you-think-the-greek-population-disappeared-so-completely-from-anatolia-after-the-ottoman-conquest/

It is legit, however it is hard to find any additional information in Google.

[Carlin]

We know that there was movement of Greek populations within the Ottoman Empire; we know for example that Bithynia was resettled from Epirus in the 17th century, and we know that the Tsakonian colony near Erdek/Artaki cannot have been indigenous, and likely dates from the 18th century.

http://hellenisteukontos.opoudjis.net/2017-04-20-why-did-you-think-the-greek-population-disappeared-so-completely-from-anatolia-after-the-ottoman-conquest/

It is legit, however it is hard to find any additional information in Google.

No prob, I was just looking for a link (or anything). There were always population movements.

Now that you mention Erdek - what I found interesting with my ancestrydna timeline is that I have 'dots' in this area and Marmara Ereglisi (they appear here for the first time in the 19th century):