The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Carlin]

This is an interesting topic in a wrong thread. Actually the problem was not having a cover version and these were not cases of plagiarism. It's just that in the 50s, 60s and even the 70s the crediting rules and mentality was not the same and I'm pretty sure you have to blame the record companies and not the composers like Kaldaras and Kazantzidis who are actually really major Greek composers.

These Indian songs are still officially credited to the Greek "composers" and I have personally tried to change this but it weirdly hasn't changed yet, when the real composer is obviously the Indian duo Shankar-Jaikishan. The three songs given in the link are the three most famous cases known in Greece as "Afti i Nyhta Menei", "Oso Axizeis Esy" and "Ligo Ligo Tha Me Synithiseis".

I guess, but I honestly didn't want to create a new thread - or Search for one that could have been perhaps more appropriate.

I also forgot to include the original link where I saw this - freeinquiry.gr of course:

https://freeinquiry.gr/single-post.php?id=921

By the way, could you please elaborate on your efforts to have the real Indian composers credited with the songs? Why do you think, in the year 2018, these Indian songs are still officially credited to the Greek "composers"?

There are also countless Arabic, Turkish and other songs that were copied and appropriated -- which still seem to be explained away as originally Greek or as legitimate heritage of the refugees. Do you know much about this?

[Carlin]

URL:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D37%3Achapter%3D9

Polybius, Depopulation of Greece:

In our time all Greece was visited by a dearth of children and generally a decay of population, owing to which the cities were denuded of inhabitants, and a failure of productiveness resulted, though there were no long-continued wars or serious pestilences among us.

[Carlin]

A law of Septimius Severus [a Roman emperor in 200 A.D.] speaks of a penuria hominum- a shortage of men. In Greece the depopulation had been going on for centuries. In Alexandria, which had boasted of its numbers, Bishop Dionysius calculated that the population had in his time (250 A.D.) been halved. He mourned to “see the human race diminishing and constantly wasting away.” Only the barbarians and the Orientals were increasing, outside of the Empire and within.

http://catholic-skyview-tremblay.blogspot.com/2012/02/caesar-depopulation-and-crisis-secular.html

[Carlin]

"Fanis Michalopoulos has given the answer, who, referring to the visit of Cosmas of Aetolia to Aspropotamos and Agrafa regions, stresses that "the language here (was) Vlach in most villages"

Agrafa mountains - Agrafa is a mountainous region in Evrytania and Karditsa regional units in mainland Greece. It is the southernmost part of the Pindus range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrafa

[Carlin]

1) “Despite its ancient name and self presentation, Modern Greece is not an old nation. The Greek national state was born as the result of a separatist war..."

- Antonis Liakos, "Historical Time and National Space in Modern Greece"

URL:

http://src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/coe21/publish/no15_ses/11_liakos.pdf

2) The difficulty of being a Greek, by Vasilis Rafailidis

* First Published in the Ethnos (1987)

URL:

http://eranistis.net/wordpress/2014/05/08/%CE%B7-%CE%B4%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%BD%CE%B1-%CE%B5%CE%AF%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B9-%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B1%CF%82/

Some interesting excerpts/translations.

a) The Greek Revolution of 1821 was indeed a revolution. But in a totally different sense from the textbooks and official stories that seem to ignore the meaning of the word. Revolution, therefore, means rebelling a part of the people of a particular ethnicity against part of the same people of the same ethnicity. The French Revolution, for example, was a revolution, because some Frenchmen were up against other Frenchmen. So was the October Revolution.

The war that takes place during a revolution which, of course, does not necessarily lead to a war, since disputes can be settled through negotiations, is necessarily civil (war between members of the same race). Why, then, was the Greek Revolution called a revolution? If the Greeks were fighting the Turks, we would have had to simply have a "liberating war" with the aim of expelling the conqueror from lands inhabited by a particular ethnicity, wishing to self-rule and to become autonomous (to establish the laws itself).

b) Gerasimos Kaklamanis, who, with his book "On the Structure of the Modern Greek State" (author's edition), provided us with the stimuli for today's text, says that not only Arvanites and Vlachs took part in the Greek Revolution (this is not disputed), but also about 430,000 Muslims in religion, many of whom were Turks in origin...

c) And if these are easily labeled by their names, the Arvanites, the Vlachs and the Slavs make it more difficult for them, mainly because they have been established for centuries in this place.

However, many names are irrefutable witnesses of the racial origin of at least half of the Neohellenic people. The names of Ghika, Gekas, Toskos and Kioses are typically Arvanite. Arvanite is also the common name of Sideris, which was given as a professional definition to the Arvanite blacksmiths, as well as all the names with the prefix "Arvanitis", such as Arvanitakis, Arvanitopoulos, etc. Similarly, there is a huge number of Greek names with the prefix Vlachos, such as Vlachopoulos, Vlachakis, Vlachogiannis, Vlachomitros, etc. Also easily distinguished are those with the Slavic ancestors: Stogiannis, Staikos, etc. Language was and still remains the most authoritative source for the science of Ethnology. We all know that half of the modern Greek words are Arvanite, Turkish, Vlach and Slavic. So, why do we talk about "racial purity" in a place where we all have in our genealogy tree of more than one ancestor of "other races"?

3) In the following article by the same writer Vasilis Rafailidis it is plainly stated that: today at least a quarter of Greeks are of Albanian descent - and anyone who challenges the contribution of the Arvanites to the Modern Greek history is either a baby, totally illiterate or malignant.

URL of the article (first published in 1987):

http://eranistis.net/wordpress/2014/10/21/%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B2%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%AF%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%82-%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CE%B4%CF%89%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B5%CE%AF%CF%82-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85-%CE%BD%CE%AD%CE%BF%CF%85-%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%CF%83/

[Carlin]

Serbian historian Predrag Komatina states openly that the Peloponnesian Tzakonians are not descendants of ancient Lacedaemonians - but rather a specific historical phenomenon (citing Caratzas).




Now, let's remind ourselves of what Caratzas wrote and where the Tzakonians likely came from (previously shared on this forum). I have highlighted the interesting parts but can translate from French upon request.





PS:

[tchaiku]

^Can you provide a translation?

[Carlin]

Starting from top of page 122:

It is now very likely that the Vlachs were settled in the Peloponnese. What historical fact hides the legend which talks about Tzacones?

We must remember here that in Macedonia Tzacones were known as heretics too. This characteristic could, on its own, lead the author to recast the legend, to attribute their expulsion from Athos to Constantine the Great, defender of Orthodoxy. The author of the legend could have proceeded to this falsification starting from the measures taken against the heretics by Constantine Monomachus or Alexius Comnenus, both protectors of the Orthodoxy and the Holy Mountain.

In the 19th century, the tradition of the Macedonian origin of the inhabitants of Cynuria was present (Cynuria = today's Tzaconia). But this tradition alone can not serve as proof of an Athonite origin of the present Tzacones of the Peloponnese. However, two other written testimonies speak of a population transfer from Athos to the Peloponnese, and specify the date of their arrival. These are two chrysobulls by which Andronicus II Paleologus (1292) and John VI Paleologus (1344) confirm privileges conceded earlier and rule disputes of the Athonite monasteries Vatopedion and Esphigmenou.

Highlighted footnotes, 198 and 199:

198) Theodorete mentions disorders caused by the presence of Vlachs in Athos in 1097.

199) Sathas tells us: "A Tzaconian merchant, M. Colossucas, whom I met three years ago in Paris, has told me that among his compatriots there persists a tradition according to which the Tzaconians, formerly occupying Macedonia, were exiled by the emperors."


And one more book, mentioning the well attested presence of Vlachs throughout the Chalcidice -

"The Vlachs are well attested in Chalcidice."

URL:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=gOHkAAAAMAAJ&q=tzacones+valaques&dq=tzacones+valaques&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi23sTlp-jbAhUk74MKHb1dBPYQ6AEIMTAB

Byzantinische Forschungen, Volume 7, Publisher A.M. Hakkert, 1979


Also, THIS -

"The Tzaconians, those detestable Slavs and Turco-Macedonians of the ancient Byzantine tradition, suddenly became noble descendants of Lycurgus."

URL:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Vn1MAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA128&dq=tzaconiens+Turco-Mac%C3%A9doniens&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHncPxqejbAhVo3IMKHWdxDOEQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=tzaconiens%20Turco-Mac%C3%A9doniens&f=false

Annuaire de l'Association pour l'encouragement des études ..., Volumes 16-17, 1882

[tchaiku]

We need a full entery to Byzantine writings to elaborate the origin of Tsakonians. Wikipedia is biased it wont help us.

Since you mentioned is Pontic Greek closer to Ancient Greek than Tsakonian is?

[Carlin]

We need a full entery to Byzantine writings to elaborate the origin of Tsakonians. Wikipedia is biased it wont help us.

Since you mentioned is Pontic Greek closer to Ancient Greek than Tsakonian is?

I didn't mention it - it comes from Quora (clearly an online post by a Greek), and I took a screenshot of it. The value of it simply is that to most Greeks Tsakonian seems to "sound" like Vlach or Slavic.

Anyway, all of these claims about which "Greek dialect" is more ancient are getting laughable. I mean I thought it was Tsakonian, which was most archaic and closest to Doric -- now it's Pontic Greek that's most ancient of them all... What's next?

PONTIC IS NOT GREEK / ΤΑ ΠΟΝΤΙΑΚΑ ΔΕΝ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ

https://freeinquiry.gr/single-post.php?id=4267

[tchaiku]

I didn't mention it - it comes from Quora (clearly an online post by a Greek), and I took a screenshot of it. The value of it simply is that to most Greeks Tsakonian seems to "sound" like Vlach or Slavic.

Anyway, all of these claims about which "Greek dialect" is more ancient are getting laughable. I mean I thought it was Tsakonian, which was most archaic and closest to Doric -- now it's Pontic Greek that's most ancient of them all... What's next?

PONTIC IS NOT GREEK / ΤΑ ΠΟΝΤΙΑΚΑ ΔΕΝ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ
https://freeinquiry.gr/single-post.php?id=4267

Yeah the fact that even Pontians, who are 70% hellenized Georgiano-Lazes, have their own Greek dialect is alarming about the language being the evidence of the Greek ''continuity''.

[Carlin]

Repost

Herakleios called Kyros a HELLENE for having advised that the emperor's daughter should be betrothed to Ambros, phylarch of the Saracens, a HELLENE, an enemy of God and an opponent of the Christians.

The translation uses the term pagan, which is correct. The term "Hellene" did not have an ethnic/national meaning.

Please take a CLOSE look at the original and the translation.

Herakleios called Kyros a HELLENE for having advised that the emperor's daughter should be betrothed to Ambros, phylarch of the Saracens, a HELLENE, an enemy of God and an opponent of the Christians.

The translation uses the term pagan, which is correct. The term "Hellene" did not have an ethnic/national meaning.

[tchaiku]

The "hellenic" Constantinople ... full of barbarians and foreigners. Almost the entire "hellenic" byzantine army were foreigners.

If I may ask, what is it saying? In short words if you want.

[Carlin]

If I may ask, what is it saying? In short words if you want.

Here are translations of (only) two sentences:

- The number of foreigners increased through many slaves, mostly from the northeastern coasts of the North Sea, and the Germans forming the emperor's bodyguard.

- Historian Procopius, contemporary of Justinian, estimates that during his time there were 70,000 barbarians legally residing in Constantinople.

[tchaiku]

Here are translations of (only) two sentences:

- The number of foreigners increased through many slaves, mostly from the northeastern coasts of the North Sea, and the Germans forming the emperor's bodyguard.

- Historian Procopius, contemporary of Justinian, estimates that during his time there were 70,000 barbarians legally residing in Constantinople.

Well Constantinople had a population of 500,000. But yeah I wonder how many ''illegal barbarians'' were there.
Btw the plague reduced Constantinople's population from 500,000 to 40,000 or 70,000 at most. So sad No doubt why Slavs were able to occupy Greece.