Ethnic map showing where Albanian was spoken in the Peloponnese, 1890!

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  • Daskalot
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 4345

    Ethnic map showing where Albanian was spoken in the Peloponnese, 1890!



    Source: Ethnographische karte des Peloponnes (ethnographic map of the Peloponnese), by Dr. Alfred Philippson, Petermanns Mitteilungen, 1890.

    The Legend translated into English:

    PURPLE - Newgreek language.
    BLUE - Tzakonian dialect.
    RED - Albanian language (current spreading).
    RED - Greek and Albanian mixed.
    RED - territory of Hellenized Albanians in the last generation.
    Underlined in yellow ELIS, MELINCER, Vatika, Giannitsa - Slavic tribes and by Slavs inhabited regions and places from the 9th to the 12th century.
    Guvaes: Popular region names, Geronthron: Names of ???,
    BLUE ------ Traditional border of the Mani
    RED ------ The approximate border of the Albanian territory by the 15th century
    I-X Enclaves of the Albanian people
    Macedonian Truth Organisation
  • Svoliani
    Banned
    • Sep 2008
    • 93

    #2
    The purple by far outnumbers the Red.
    Clear to see who was the majority in the pelloponese.

    What are Slavic tribes and Slavs and why have you underlined these toponyms in yellow. I dont understand this, why would this make you happy?

    Comment

    • Daskalot
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 4345

      #3
      I have not changed the map, it is like that in its original form
      look for tsakonian on wikipedia and you will find the exact same map.

      So you are Newgreeks then?
      Macedonian Truth Organisation

      Comment

      • Svoliani
        Banned
        • Sep 2008
        • 93

        #4
        Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
        I have not changed the map, it is like that in its original form
        look for tsakonian on wikipedia and you will find the exact same map.

        So you are Newgreeks then?

        New Greek language means the Modern Greek language.
        Surely you knew this.
        What are Slavic Tribes and Slavs???
        Last edited by Svoliani; 11-23-2008, 03:56 AM.

        Comment

        • Daskalot
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 4345

          #5
          Originally posted by Svoliani View Post
          New Greek language means the Modern Greek language.
          Surely you knew this.
          What are Slavic Tribes and Slavs???
          they are the one living in the Morea before your kind....
          Macedonian Truth Organisation

          Comment

          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            #6
            RE: "BLUE - Tzakonian dialect."

            Documents inédits relatifs à l'histoire de la Grèce au Moyen âge publiés ...
            By Konstantinos N. Sathas



            I'll let the following finding speak for itself.

            PREFACE, Page LXXII -

            "DANS LA BULLE DE MICHEL GABRIELOPOULOS, PRINCE THESSALIEN (1295), LA GARNISON MILITAIRE EST NOMMEE 'TSAKONIKI'. PAR CE MOT SONT DESIGNEES LES BANDES ALBANAISES, COMME LA BULLE ELLE-MEME PARAIT L'EXPLIQUER."

            ENGLISH:
            "IN THE CHRYSOBULL OF MICHEL GABRIELOPOULOS, PRINCE OF THESSALY (1295), THE MILITARY GARRISON IS NAMED 'TSAKONIAN'. BY THIS WORD ARE DESIGNATED ALBANIAN BANDS AS THE CHRYSOBULL ITSELF SEEMS TO EXPLAIN."
            Last edited by Carlin; 03-04-2016, 11:52 PM.

            Comment

            • Amphipolis
              Banned
              • Aug 2014
              • 1328

              #7
              Originally posted by Carlin View Post
              ENGLISH:
              "IN THE CHRYSOBULL OF MICHEL GABRIELOPOULOS, PRINCE OF THESSALY (1295), THE MILITARY GARRISON IS NAMED 'TSAKONIAN'. BY THIS WORD ARE DESIGNATED ALBANIAN BANDS AS THE CHRYSOBULL ITSELF SEEMS TO EXPLAIN."
              I'm not sure it does explain that. Take a look at these two links (in Greek):





              This is also interesting as it reviews many funny theories that have appeared about the origin of Tsakonians and provides some practical examples comparing Tsakonian dialect and Albanian language.

              Comment

              • Carlin
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 3332

                #8
                Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                I'm not sure it does explain that. Take a look at these two links (in Greek):





                This is also interesting as it reviews many funny theories that have appeared about the origin of Tsakonians and provides some practical examples comparing Tsakonian dialect and Albanian language.

                http://www.greeks-albanians.com/top-...07-22-15-45-33
                Thanks for the links. I took a look, but could you please provide a quick summary?

                Anyway, for the source I provided - I am fairly certain that is the accurate translation of the passage provided (you can check yourself if you want to, using google translate). Here are the brief translations of the first couple of paragraphs of that page (LXXII), and additional pages. [As for Tzaconian, there is no doubt it is a form of Greek, however, this does not tell us much about the ethnic origin of the Tzaconians themselves. It is likely they went from a stage of speaking more than one language, to becoming monolinguals at some point.]

                As per K. Sathas -

                PAGE 'Preface LXXII':

                "The Mardaites inhabit Nicopolis (that is, Epirus), the island of Kephalonia, Crete and Tenos. The Tzaconians are also found in Epirus, Thessaly, Crete as well as Peloponnesus. In the chrysobull of M. Gabrielopoulos, the prince of Thessaly (1295 AD), the military garrison is named "tsakoniki". By this word are designated Albanian bands, as the chrysobull itself seems to explain. The Mardaite corps are confined in Asia Minor too; in the same province are also installed corps of Tzaconians.

                Chalcocondyle and archbishop Meletius claim that the Tzaconians are from Mount Pindus. At the time of emperor Cantacuzene, this mountain belonged to the Albanians. The Venetian documents mention Albanians in Tzaconia."

                PAGE 'Preface LXXIV' (towards the very end of the page):

                "The ancient Tzaconians belong to Albanian sailors of Kranidi, Hydra, and Petza."

                PAGE 'Preface LXVIII':

                "The Mardaites inhabited the territory of Monemvasia, or modern Tzaconia.
                Like 'Mardaite', the word 'Tzacon' does not mean a people, but a category of soldiers."

                As you can see, above is not my opinion. It is simply the writing of K. Sathas, a modern Greek historian.
                Last edited by Carlin; 03-24-2016, 02:47 PM.

                Comment

                • Carlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 3332

                  #9
                  Re: Underlined in yellow ELIS, MELINCER, Vatika, Giannitsa, Skorta - Slavic tribes and by Slavs inhabited regions and places from the 9th to the 12th century.

                  Skorta, bastion of the Slavs who overran Arcadia in the seventh century.



                  Source: George Nakratzas, The Close Racial Kinship Between the Greeks, Bulgarians, and Turks.

                  Comment

                  • Carlin
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 3332

                    #10
                    Sathas, page 'Preface LXVIII':

                    "The Mardaites inhabited the territory of Monemvasia, or modern Tzaconia."

                    The Mardaites return to their homeland, which is the territory of Monemvasia (Tzakonia):

                    Comment

                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      #11
                      Adding this one in to the mix.

                      Slavs in Tzaconia, per below.

                      Page 221, Footnote 124.

                      FR:
                      "Philippson admettent que des installations slaves existaient a Vatika aussi, c'est-a-dire au sud de la fortresse de Tzaconie et pres de Monemvasie. Quelques noms de lieu slaves renforcent cette supposition."

                      ENG:
                      "Philippson admits that Slavic colonies (installations) existed in Vatika also, that is to say south of the fortress of Tzaconia and close to Monemvasia. Some Slavic place names reinforce this supposition."

                      Comment

                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        #12
                        Adding one more map: The Albanian settlements of Mainland Greece.



                        As we can see, and focusing on the Peloponnese, there were Albanian settlements all over the Peloponnese (including some settlements in the area of Tzakonia, as indicated in the map).

                        Also, let's not forget that Phrantzes, in his own time, asserted the following:

                        “Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.”

                        Comment

                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          #13
                          Arvanitic Tosk subdialect from Peloponnese. Recorded in Iliokastro, Ermioni, in July 1986, by Titos Jochalas.

                          https://www.tiktok.com/@kryezotiDialect: Arvanitic Tosk subdialect, from the Peloponnese.Location: Greece, Peloponnese, Argolis, village of Iliokastro.Coo...

                          Comment

                          • tchaiku
                            Member
                            • Nov 2016
                            • 786

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                            Adding one more map: The Albanian settlements of Mainland Greece.



                            As we can see, and focusing on the Peloponnese, there were Albanian settlements all over the Peloponnese (including some settlements in the area of Tzakonia, as indicated in the map).

                            Also, let's not forget that Phrantzes, in his own time, asserted the following:

                            “Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.”


                            How much must be the percentage of modern Greeks with Arvanite acenstry?
                            Last edited by tchaiku; 04-13-2017, 12:47 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Liberator of Makedonija
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 1597

                              #15
                              Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                              How much must be the percentage of modern Greeks with Arvanite acenstry?
                              It would be pretty high I'm guessing.
                              I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                              Comment

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