Modern Greece 1st constitution, a "Greek" is a Christian, 1827!

[Amphipolis]

Only 7% and that has nothing to do with the "New Territories" of Macedonia.

Yet every Greek will tell you how their ancestors were all scholars or whatever.

The 7% adds credence to why it was necessary to make it easy to "become" Greek in 1827.

What do you mean? What are you trying to say? My question refers to each and every one of the three above sentences you wrote. Do you know what a list of subscribers is?

[Amphipolis]

so your holding shit in your hands and your convinced its chocolate ... its been proven time and time again, that there is no greek continuity, even since Battle of Charonea, there has been no freedom for the southern city states till 200 years were the local population didnt know even know who herucles was and just because istanbul chose to use greek for religious purposes does not make the church greek and or a greek kingdom and all the orthodox followers greek, thats as vain as saying that all people that follow the vatican and catholic church are of italian heritage.

Do you think Greek History starts or ends with the “freedom” of the southern city states? Do you also have a theory about the Peloponnesian War?

What does your sentence about “Istanbul” mean? Did anyone suggest that being an Orthodox Christian makes you Greek? No.

Yet, many people were gradually Hellenized through Christianity. That has been (to a grant degree) the role of Eastern Roman Empire, but it did have limits and many exceptions. The bulk of Eastern Roman people were Greeks or became ones during certain periods.

[Amphipolis]

Maybe I should elaborate a bit. The Vlachs, Arvanites, Christian Turks, Muslim Turks, Pomaks, and Macedonians I consider to be “add-ons” to your core nation of Greeks. I do not know enough about the evolutionary progression of the indigenous Greek people from Romaioi (with no sense of ethnic identity besides a religious one) to Hellenes to disrespect your nation and say it is an invention of the western intellectuals, that is, European Philhellenes of the nineteenth century. I’ll let other more qualified people tackle that one. With the exception of the ethnic Macedonian community and the Muslim Turkish/Pomak communities of Thrace, these add-ons that I speak of have been sucked up into the Hellenic vacuum cleaner and thoroughly Hellenised. The Greek state has managed to transform these aliens into a hard core group of fanatical pseudo Greeks.
The “sell-out Macedonians” I am referring to is a section of the ethnic Macedonian community in Greece who, through necessity (economic or otherwise), have chosen to adopt the Greek façade. Together with the other add-ons, their collective indoctrinated convictions about their unbroken Greek links to antiquity are betrayed by the forgotten fact (or more precisely, conveniently ignored) that their grandparents spoke Turkish, Vlach, Albanian or Macedonian as their first language at home.

National Conscience is a subjective and complicated thing. To a degree it is a personal choice (political, social, ideological, philosophical, existential one) so it has a variety of arguments. On the other hand language is objective. In short, a Bulgarian would tell you that you wear a Macedonian façade.

The word assimilation, in the Greek context, is a neat word to disguise aggressive, state sponsored and forced Hellenization of non-Greek peoples. Please don’t give me that they were Greeks to begin with and that Greece just helped them to realise it better. I’ve heard all that stuff before. I have even had one elderly ethnic Macedonian, from many years ago, try to convince me that we were all originally descended from the ancient Dorians but that the Slavs took over the area and changed our original Greek language. This happened during an argument at my place of work, when I was a hot-headed twenty year-old, where I genuinely thought I was arguing with yet another Greek fanatic. The man suddenly dropped his Greek façade and spoke to me in perfect Macedonian that he too is a Macedonian but a Greek Macedonian from Solun. And yes, he used the word “Solun.” These are the people I refer to as “sell-out Macedonians.”

As I mentioned in a previous post, each and any of these groups has its’ own legends and obsessions. Some Anatolians have a legend that at some point in the past Turks ordered them to either abandon their language or religion. Vlachs try to prove that they did not come recently (in the last 4-5 centuries) from Romania, but are related to ancient Roman populations in the South Balkans. Albanians realize there is NO historical reference to their land or people for MANY centuries, almost a millennium and have to interpret this huge gap. Others try to interpret what Slavs are, if they ever existed, if there was a Slavic descent or if Alexander was a proto-Slav etc.

As for the Christian Turks of Anatolia, they are the current, new breed of Greeks – The Greek Macedonians. These “true” descendants of Alexander the Great are the loudest and most fanatical of all the Greeks. The next thing you will tell me is that it wasn’t really a population exchange back in 1922-1923. The Greek Macedonians were simply reclaiming their ancestral homes.

Who are the Christian Turks of Anatolia? Is it a certain group among the refugees?

You mentioned that it is difficult to find descendants of Turkish/Muslim populations because they supposedly mixed with other Greeks. Please read David Howarth's book "The Greek Adventure" and you will see what the real reason for this difficulty is.

The probability that I read this book is an absolute 0%. Can’t you tell me your/his point?


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[George S.]

I have to stop you and correct you today there is no such thing as Hellenism you are brainwashed to believe that there is.When you were a child you are indoctrinated what to believe and you believe what the govt tells you is what the skopians want5 is their land.You know that is the truth that one day you will realise we will get our land when there is no Greece at all.No hellas.

[Karposh]

The probability that I read this book is an absolute 0%. Can’t you tell me your/his point?


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Well, if I’m going to be honest, I haven’t read the book either but I hear it’s a great book

Seriously though, others have read the book and they have provided some harrowing excerpts from eyewitness accounts. I know I have those excerpts somewhere but it’s getting late (1:15am) and I want to go to bed so it’ll have to wait.

[Karposh]

Amphipolis, the point I was trying to make with David Howarth’s book “The Greek Adventure” was regarding the slaughter of the unarmed civilian Turkish population during the 1821 revolution. I’m not going to copy and paste all the excerpts that I managed to dig up because it is an endless list of horrifying accounts. I’ll give you the gist of it however. The book records, in graphic detail, the unbridled bloodlust of the frenzied Greeks against Muslim Turks. Women, children, the elderly, pregnant women, the unborn children, basically anyone who was Turkish was slaughtered, all in the name of Christ. This is Greek Orthodox Christianity the way your great, great grandfather understood it to be back in 1821.

The reason I am making this point is to clarify why it is difficult in find descendants of Turkish/Muslim populations today. It is not because they supposedly mixed with other Greeks.

[George S.]

The same policy all the time against Macedonia.they don't really care they have appointed Greece into the eu presidency many times.Even though Helsinki human rights watch pointed out that the record of Greece is extremely poor and they have avoided giving minorities their rights.Worst of all they underesimate the minorities to suit themselves.Not only that Greece is a member of nato and the eu and has vetoed Macedonia all the way with non sensical names,trying to change its name.Forcing it to change to join the eu or nato.,It is biting the eu in the arse the financial hip pocket arse.
But there is no admission to that they think silence is golden.
Ill you a question who keeps denying that Macedonians don't exist that Macedonians are greeks.Then rom people are not Macedonian but are Bulgarian and speak Bulgarian.Even though its totally inaccurate they called Macedonians slavs and slavophones.Greece is responsible for the genocide of the Macedonians.Just read what it did to the Macedonians All that has been shown on many threads of this forum and elsewhere.Destroying nearly 800000 homes or more so much killings etc and banishments from their land and homes.They wont admit to anything or say they are sorry.Amphipolis is a fine example.

[makedonche]

Very well put. I have tried in vain to reason with Amphipolis before on this issue, but he never addresses it and instead keeps repeating this absurd Greek and Bulgarian narrative. The fact is that the Bulgars adopted Slavic from Macedonians and Bulgarian is a variant of south east Slavic. Even if he rejects the argument that Macedonians identified as "Macedonian" in the 6th and 7th centuries, it still does not change the obvious fact that the Turkic speaking Bulgars adopted a south eastern Slavic dialect, which would mean Bulgarian is borrowed and based on Macedonian. No other explanation is possible.

Philosopher
You can't reason with somebody in denial! The same way the rest of the country is, denial - debt, denial -minorities, denial - everything that doesn't suit their fabricated history!

[Amphipolis]

Amphipolis, the point I was trying to make with David Howarth’s book “The Greek Adventure” was regarding the slaughter of the unarmed civilian Turkish population during the 1821 revolution. I’m not going to copy and paste all the excerpts that I managed to dig up because it is an endless list of horrifying accounts. I’ll give you the gist of it however. The book records, in graphic detail, the unbridled bloodlust of the frenzied Greeks against Muslim Turks. Women, children, the elderly, pregnant women, the unborn children, basically anyone who was Turkish was slaughtered, all in the name of Christ. This is Greek Orthodox Christianity the way your great, great grandfather understood it to be back in 1821.

The reason I am making this point is to clarify why it is difficult in find descendants of Turkish/Muslim populations today. It is not because they supposedly mixed with other Greeks.

I was referring to the Muslims or Turks that survived because (a) they converted, (b) they were Muslim Albanians (I think their life was spared after a deal), or (c) they were not in Peloponnesus. I just said that it’s hard to locate which ones their descendants are, 5-6 generation later.

Probably, if there are Muslim villages in Thessaly that gradually converted (between 1850 and 1900) they would be locally known, but generally Muslims/Turks either left, were killed or converted sooner or later.

The same policy all the time against Macedonia.they don't really care they have appointed Greece into the eu presidency many times.

Greek presidency of European Union doesn’t mean anything, all countries take presidency (in turn) for 6 months.

Ill you a question who keeps denying that Macedonians don't exist that Macedonians are greeks.Then rom people are not Macedonian but are Bulgarian and speak Bulgarian.Even though its totally inaccurate they called Macedonians slavs and slavophones.Greece is responsible for the genocide of the Macedonians.Just read what it did to the Macedonians All that has been shown on many threads of this forum and elsewhere.Destroying nearly 800000 homes or more so much killings etc and banishments from their land and homes.They wont admit to anything or say they are sorry.Amphipolis is a fine example.

Who destroyed 800,000 homes? How do you invent these numbers.

By the way, last week there was a small scandal in Greece, when old statements were revealed by a Greek Minister where he denied the Greek/Pontic Genocide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide) and thought it was a simple slaughter or regular ethnic cleansing.

Thanks to this debate I learnt that there is an International Association of Genocide Scholars (!) that recognizes Genocides, so maybe you should send them an e-mail.

[Goce Homer MakeDonski]

The 1st Constitution of the Greek State, in the year 1827.

??? ---> 4. Provinces of Greece are all those that were taken and will be taken by weapons against the Ottoman Dynasty.

1) ---> 6. Greeks are:
2) ---> a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ.
3) ---> b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it.
4) ---> e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens.

NOTE: To become a Greek, it was enough to be a Christian!

This document proves that Greeks have a very short memory. They do not remember how the Greek State was made and also who the modern Greeks are.
Why should we Macedonians have to prove that we are Macedonians since antiquity when the Greeks do not have to prove anything for being Greeks.
The fact is that about 180 years ago anybody who was a Christian in the Greek State became a Greek automatically, why does that not bother the modern Greeks?
You see, if someone was a Jew or a Muslim or a Catholic, he/she was excluded immediately. Let us now ask ourselves what is Greek racism and were did it come from?
Just read the above document and you will know why, Greek is a manufactured ethnicity.

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1820 A.D.
Should be an year of Orthodox Church of Greece creations .
1820 should be taken as year zero

That year seems to be theirs year of birth and posted document seems to me as Greek birth certification.
If we ,again read it read it and focused at religious matter we could conclude that the question

"Who are Greeks ?

answered as :

1) -> 6. Greeks are:
2)-> a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ.
How do we have to read this ?
What about all those what do not believe in Christ ?
Are they Greeks ? Seven year after that is year 1827 , we have a state named as Greece and native
population living there. Why that population was described using the words
"indigenous people " ?
Who not simply as Greeks ?
Is it because that the new born state named as Greece was still up to this moment with out of the name for its citizens.
Here we have got situations of Church abused form ,from the side of Diplomacy .It used to be Western Diplomacy abused the Church as an instrument of firstly new ethos ,than new nation creations.
Firstly about of this new ethnics name appearing .
If we read sentence ,we will read this: Indigenous people, believe ,Christ ,Greek State.
What we are not reading and we well never read at this stage are "Greeks people".
Why ?
Because were not any.
At that stage it used to be a native population living there described as indigenous .
That native population is mostly Christians by faith has got its name because of name of Church .According to the dogmas one Country one Church , situation is
one invited name - Greece for the Country one name for the Church -
"Church of Greece " ,firstly , than "Greeks Church"
.Guiding principle is naming as Greeks primarily for the native population living there ,described as indigenous people or Believers in Christ .
Than for all of the rest of Christians,out of new born state calculated that shell came and appeared
That is written at the next two sentence :
3) -> b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it.
4) -> e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens..."


Lets check out :....
will come to... the Greek State , (not between the Greeks )
...who come ...

Will come , and who come ...spoke about the foreigners.
Conclusion is that:

Sentences
1) -> 6. Greeks are:
2)-> a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ.
talking about the native population
Sentences
3) -> b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it.
4) -> e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens..."
talking about the non native population and
up to that time
none of them time were Greeks .

[Goce Homer MakeDonski]

Conclusion shell be that :
Church of Greece had created an ethnos naming it as firstly members of Church of Greece,then secondly as Greeks ,and lately as "Greeks by birth" .

This is happened with the all neighbors,excluding Albania, as well. Principe was that Russian Royal Diplomacy has Created an Egzarhy named it as Bulgarian where to they were a Christians entering those Churches gates to be noted firstly as members of Bulgarian Egzarhy ,then secondly as Bulgarians ,then "Bulgarians by birth".

The very same ethnos creation principle we could noted with Orthodox Church for Serbia where Christians,while were entering were noted as firstly as members of Church of Serbia,then secondly as Serbs, then as "Serbs by birth..."

And all of this some how is Eastern Roman Church hereditary principle.
Back at the time all of the Christians were members of that Church and were named as Romaioi or Churches members .Rumi was theirs Arabian then Ottomans translation , Roomi for members and Rumelia for the area under the Churches behavior.

[Goce Homer MakeDonski]

If we make a parallel we will conclude that ,while Macedonian ethnos had created it own Church ,it is happened, that they were the neighboring Churches what had created neighboring ethnic groups or peoples naming them as Greeks, Bulgarians , Serbs .
Differences is huge as it is differences between the Sky and the Earth

[Goce Homer MakeDonski]

At this Planet seems to be that is all about religion and while is humanity
"no one can not even fart without Popes permission"

[Amphipolis]

Most of these questions and arguments have been answered when my name was Sweet Sixteen in posts #76,#78, #79.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=393&page=8

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[Goce Homer MakeDonski]

Most of these questions and arguments have been answered when my name was Sweet Sixteen in posts #76,#78, #79.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=393&page=8

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Sister


Is there anywhere an earlier document talking about Greeks?
Year 1820 seems to be year zero for the Greeks and Greece .
I doubt that except underline footnotes ,we could find anything .