1916 Grk Magazine article upset that soldiers in grk army speak Albanian

[Soldier of Macedon]

Onur, everybody but the ignorant can see this. That was a good example. Perhaps Voltron will now respond by saying they are within Greek borders so they are an exception, lol. The truth is, get two or three of these type of Greeks together to discuss this issue and they won't agree amongst themselves. I have seen other Greeks here argue with yourself about the Turkish minority in Greece, claiming them to be Greeks. Voltron still needs to reconcile the perceptions in Greece with those he was apparently brought up with in the USA.

Well, I am neither Arvanite, Vlach, or "Grkomani" but Greek so whatever mate. Its apparant you have your mind dead set on your one-sided view of Greek history.

It's apparent you aren't able to digest anything that strays away from that deluded narrative you've built up in your own mind. I have never denied the existence of ethnic Greeks, I just won't refer to people of other ethnicities as ethnic Greeks.

Its Arvanites for the last time and they consisted a significant element only in certain areas of Greece.

Don't play word games, these Albanians were found in several areas across Greece, the fact that you are trying to minimise the significance of their existence is telling, and quite in line with your bizzare interpretation of 'ethnos'.

Wasnt Gruevski branding Albanians as Macedonians on their passports ? Post proof of your allegations.

Not all ethnic Macedonians are Macedonian citizens, and not all Macedonian citizens are ethnic Macedonians. The same applies for Greece. What you refer to in the above quote relates to citizenship, not ethnicity.

Everybody is entitled to feel what they want and this is no exception.

A deliberately ambiguous example, which can also include Africans and Chinese walking the streets of Athens, claiming to 'feel' Greek.

They self-identify themselves as Greeks

Why? They self-identified as Albanians during the war of independence?

.....shed their blood for the Hellenic cause.

Name a couple of Albanians who fought for the "Hellenic" cause during the 1820s/1830's, and how you came to this conclusion when there was no Hellas, and when the people that lived there themselves didn't call it as such?

[osiris]

they shed their blood for the christian religion, hellenism is what you modern arvanitoclachs grew up on thanks to the western phillhellenes and the fascist lunatic metaxas. your immediate ancestors on the other hand couldnt even imagine what hellenism was about. you are a pathetic and greedy bunch of wannabe historical big shots trying to forget your humble origins and latching on to the glory of hellas macedonia and rome. wake up to yourselves and get a life.

[Voltron]

So, this means that the Greeks who accepted muslim religion cannot be considered as Greeks anymore and they should be Turks only as Voltron says but according to Greek court, Greek politicians and their Greek policy, all the muslim people in Thrace are definitely the children of Hellenes and they cannot be Turks!!! If they express themselves as Turks, it`s considered as a crime of which needs to be severely punished!!!

See the irony here?

I am not a spokesperson for the Hellenic Republic Onur. So my personal distaste for Islam has nothing to do with the facts on the ground, or how Greece perceives the "minority" situation in Thrace. I would also like to point out that our Macedonian members here are not up to date with the Laussane treaty and how it applies to both our countries. You baiting them on it is really immature.

Are there Muslim Greeks ? Of course there is. Are there Pomaks in the region ? Of course there is. Are there Turks in the region ? Again, Of course there is. So why the hell should we entrap ourselves into saying they are all Turks ? This is a Turkification policy that has not stopped and even today Turkey is bribing these people into defining themselves as " Turks ". You know Goddamn well that Pomaks are not Turks yet your government does everything in its power to make them out as Turks to instill a defacto "Turkish" minority in Thrace. May I remind you that the basis of the agreement between our two countries is based on a " Muslim Minority ". Why Turkey is trying with teeth and nails to renegade on this agreement is only obvious.

How is it that the " Turkish" minority in Thrace is stable and growing in Greece and the " Rum " minority is all but non-existant in Turkey ? I wonder who kept their part of the bargain. You playing holier than though is really pathetic sometimes. You should be ashamed for even trying to bring this up.

I would like to reiterate that my view as to how I portray Muslim "Greeks" is based on my distaste for your religion. No reconciliation is necessary. Greece has to protect itself from phantom minorities springing up and it is following its part of the bargain, aside from the fact that Turkey is not. No Irony here, just the facts.

Good job in the derailment by the way.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

I have never denied the existence of ethnic Greeks, I just won't refer to people of other ethnicities as ethnic Greeks.

Fair enough

Don't play word games, these Albanians were found in several areas across Greece, the fact that you are trying to minimise the significance of their existence is telling, and quite in line with your bizzare interpretation of 'ethnos'.

No need for me to try and minimize anything since I do not try to tell them they are Albanians when they themselves do not self-identify as such. Which to me perfectly brings it inline with "ethnos". I dont find it bizarre at all.

Not all ethnic Macedonians are Macedonian citizens, and not all Macedonian citizens are ethnic Macedonians. The same applies for Greece. What you refer to in the above quote relates to citizenship, not ethnicity.

Ok, I wasnt sure about Gruevski's intention about the passports. I just remember Albanians complaining about it. No arguement there.

A deliberately ambiguous example, which can also include Africans and Chinese walking the streets of Athens, claiming to 'feel' Greek.

Of course if you isolate this statement on its own its ambiguous. It was said during a dialogue and within a wider context.

Why? They self-identified as Albanians during the war of independence?

Who ?

Name a couple of Albanians who fought for the "Hellenic" cause during the 1820s/1830's, and how you came to this conclusion when there was no Hellas, and when the people that lived there themselves didn't call it as such?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markos_Botsaris

In 1821, Botsaris made common cause with the Greeks against the Ottoman Empire. He and other Souliot captains, including Kitsos Tzavelas, Notis Botsaris, Lampros Veikos, and Giotis Danglis only enlisted fellow Souliot kin in to their bands.[1] At the outbreak of the Greek War of Independence, he distinguished himself by his courage, tenacity and skill as a partisan leader in the fighting in western Greece, and was conspicuous in the defence of Missolonghi during the first siege of the city (1822–1823).

[Orfej]

So you dont think that over 700 years of assimilation is enough for them to have the right to define themselves as Greek ? Am I understanding you correctly ?

No you don't understand me correctly! I don't argue that an Arvinite can't become a Greek through assimilation. He can, if he adopts Greek as his mother tongue, adopts Greek culture, traditions, way of living etc. But with it he stops being an Arvanite.
The point is that Arvanites and Greeks are different groups and you can't be an Arvanite and a Greek at the same time, just like you can't be a French and a German at the same time. The Arvanites are steadily being assimilated(their number is constantly shrinking) and at some point they will be extinct. Again it will not mean that the Arvanites are Greeks, it will only mean that they as a group melted into the Greek ethnos.

The same goes for Vlach, Macedonian and Turkish speakers( the last i think are totally extinct by now) in Greece. They are not Greeks and the terms u use like Slavophone Greeks or Vlachophone Greeks are redicilious.

Imagine, if we recognize all these groups as Greeks then which would be the mother tongue of the Greeks?

How many years back can you trace your family Orfej ?

Not many, but i know one thing for certain. My family spoke the language i speak and lived where i live for as long as they can remember. That's something which a lot of Greeks can't say.

They self-identify themselves as Greeks, shed their blood for the Hellenic cause, speak Greek, belong to G.O.C and live in the same area with us Greeks. What else do you want ? We treat them as our own and they dont deserve anything less than that.

If they speak Greek as a mother tongue then they are not Arvanites anymore. Is it that hard for you to understand?! An Arvanite speaks a form of the Albanian language and not Greek.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

No you don't understand me correctly! I don't argue that an Arvinite can't become a Greek through assimilation. He can, if he adopts Greek as his mother tongue, adopts Greek culture, traditions, way of living etc. But with it he stops being an Arvanite.
The point is that Arvanites and Greeks are different groups and you can't be an Arvanite and a Greek at the same time, just like you can't be a French and a German at the same time. The Arvanites are steadily being assimilated(their number is constantly shrinking) and at some point they will be extinct. Again it will not mean that the Arvanites are Greeks, it will only mean that they as a group melted into the Greek ethnos.

I dont think we are really saying something different from each other.
Il leave it at that.

The same goes for Vlach, Macedonian and Turkish speakers( the last i think are totally extinct by now) in Greece. They are not Greeks and the terms u use like Slavophone Greeks or Vlachophone Greeks are redicilious.

Who is to say there are not Greeks that speak Slav or Vlach as their mother languages ? Dont rule that out. It is possible. My native language was English, now what ? This is where everthing starts to get messy and arguements go on back and forth for an eternity. That is why I dont hold any racial value in the Balkans. It can change by just changing a few factors.

Imagine, if we recognize all these groups as Greeks then which would be the mother tongue of the Greeks?

Greek.

Not many, but i know one thing for certain. My family spoke the language i speak and lived where i live for as long as they can remember. That's something which a lot of Greeks can't say.

Now on this one you are way off the mark. You are wrong on this and you dont know my language to make such an opinion.

If they speak Greek as a mother tongue then they are not Arvanites anymore. Is it that hard for you to understand?! An Arvanite speaks a form of the Albanian language and not Greek.

Well, they speak Greek as a mother tongue now so I guess that answers your question. Thats why I emphasized on the word " Today ". Not a few hundred years ago.

[Onur]

Who is to say there are not Greeks that speak Slav or Vlach as their mother languages ? Dont rule that out. It is possible. My native language was English, now what ?

If your mothertongue is English, then you are already partly assimilated and your children will most likely be fully assimilated. By the time of 3-4th generation, those children wont even remember that his ancestors was Greeks, just like the situation of Arvanites, Vlachs or Turkish christians in Greece.

I know that this is the case with many Greek diaspora members. Most of them are already partly assimilated in US, Australia etc. They are aware of this fact and they think that as much as they preserve anti-turkish, anti-Macedonia stance, they can remain as Greeks and continue to feel as a Greek. This behavior became pretty much the only thing which attaches you in to your own small Greek world and this hateful stance defines your Greek identity now.


Ofc this is a pathological situation and it`s not healthy as well as being wrong. It would be much better for you and your community to have proper Greek names like "Yorgo, Stavros" instead of "Jack, Pierre" and teach Greek to your children instead of foreign tongue but you have names like "Jack" and you speak english, french and you pretend to be the biggest Greek in the world by hating from Turks, Albanians, Macedonians.

[Orfej]

[QUOTE=Voltron;88085]

I dont think we are really saying something different from each other.
Il leave it at that.

We were saying something different, but i won't repeat myself and start explaining again.

Who is to say there are not Greeks that speak Slav or Vlach as their mother languages ? Dont rule that out. It is possible. My native language was English, now what ? This is where everthing starts to get messy and arguements go on back and forth for an eternity. That is why I dont hold any racial value in the Balkans. It can change by just changing a few factors.

You are contradicting yourself. When i asked you:

which would be the mother tongue of the Greeks?

You answered:

Greek.

So how can a person who's native language is Macedonian be a Greek, knowing that the mother tongue of the Greeks is Greek? It just doesn't make sense!

If we follow your reasoning then we must include the Macedonian language( besides the Greek) as a mother tongue of the Greeks. If we consider the Vlach speakers, Turk speakers(karamanlides) and Albanian speakers(Arvanites) as Greeks then we must put all these languages as mother tongues of the Greeks. So besides Greek, a mother tongue of the Greeks can also be Macedonian,Albanian,Turkish or Vlach. You Greeks would have five different mother tongues!! Add to this five different cultures( similar but still different), different homelands and surely different origin of these groups, what's the thing that unites you? It's religion!!
Of course almost all the Christians on the Balkans share that same religion, so it comes up that almost all Christians on the Balkans can pass as Greeks.

Now on this one you are way off the mark. You are wrong on this and you dont know my language to make such an opinion.

I'm not wrong. There are tons of Greek speakers today who recall that their not so remote ancestors were Vlach,Macedonian,Turkish or Albanian speakers.

Well, they speak Greek as a mother tongue now so I guess that answers your question. Thats why I emphasized on the word " Today ". Not a few hundred years ago.

The records say that there are still around 50 000 people who's mother tongue is Arvantika, so they are not fully assimilated. The ones who got assimilated become Greeks.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Orfej;88092]

So how can a person who's native language is Macedonian be a Greek, knowing that the mother tongue of the Greeks is Greek? It just doesn't make sense!

Assimilation over the years. We agree on that.

If we follow your reasoning then we must include the Macedonian language( besides the Greek) as a mother tongue of the Greeks. If we consider the Vlach speakers, Turk speakers(karamanlides) and Albanian speakers(Arvanites) as Greeks then we must put all these languages as mother tongues of the Greeks. So besides Greek, a mother tongue of the Greeks can also be Macedonian,Albanian,Turkish or Vlach. You Greeks would have five different mother tongues!! Add to this five different cultures( similar but still different), different homelands and surely different origin of these groups, what's the thing that unites you? It's religion!!
Of course almost all the Christians on the Balkans share that same religion, so it comes up that almost all Christians on the Balkans can pass as Greeks.

Orfej, I understand what your trying to say, but thats not what I meant. Lets just agree on assimilation. I was referring to assimilation of Arvanites into the Greek ethnos. You may still regard them as a seperate group and thats ok. Again, most important is to ask these people themselves if they are not Greek. Not me.

I'm not wrong. There are tons of Greek speakers today who recall that their not so remote ancestors were Vlach,Macedonian,Turkish or Albanian speakers.

Tons ? I wouldnt say anymore than any other country in the balkans.

The records say that there are still around 50 000 people who's mother tongue is Arvantika, so they are not fully assimilated. The ones who got assimilated become Greeks.

50 K ? sure why not. I personally dont know. I never conducted a survey.
Nonetheless, no disagreement there. Again, just have someone ask these 50K Arvanites how they self identify. Again, I am not their spokesperson. I just respect how they want to be called. Nothing more.

[Voltron]

If your mothertongue is English, then you are already partly assimilated and your children will most likely be fully assimilated. By the time of 3-4th generation, those children wont even remember that his ancestors was Greeks, just like the situation of Arvanites, Vlachs or Turkish christians in Greece.

I know that this is the case with many Greek diaspora members. Most of them are already partly assimilated in US, Australia etc. They are aware of this fact and they think that as much as they preserve anti-turkish, anti-Macedonia stance, they can remain as Greeks and continue to feel as a Greek. This behavior became pretty much the only thing which attaches you in to your own small Greek world and this hateful stance defines your Greek identity now.


Ofc this is a pathological situation and it`s not healthy as well as being wrong. It would be much better for you and your community to have proper Greek names like "Yorgo, Stavros" instead of "Jack, Pierre" and teach Greek to your children instead of foreign tongue but you have names like "Jack" and you speak english, french and you pretend to be the biggest Greek in the world by hating from Turks, Albanians, Macedonians.

Exactly Onur, that is one of the reasons why I moved to Greece. Minor detail you left out, 3 or 4th generation Greeks that are Jack or Pierre most likely couldnt care less about Turks or Macedonians altogether. This I know from experience. Again you start to make sense than fail miserably.

[makedonche]

Volton

Exactly Onur, that is one of the reasons why I moved to Greece. Minor detail you left out, 3 or 4th generation Greeks that are Jack or Pierre most likely couldnt care less about Turks or Macedonians altogether. This I know from experience. Again you start to make sense than fail miserably.

Do you think they would be remotely interested in the truth?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Of course if you isolate this statement on its own its ambiguous. It was said during a dialogue and within a wider context.

What 'wider context', explain yourself clearly.

Who ?

Voltron, don't waste my time, I doubt you are that ill-informed about how many of your independence heroes or the people and regions they came from identified themselves and/or their language as Arbereshes, Arvanites, Arnauts or Shiptars (all ALBANIANS).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markos_Botsaris

In 1821, Botsaris made common cause with the Greeks against the Ottoman Empire.

What does making common cause with Greek-speakers who identified as Romaioi have to do with fighting for the 'Hellenic cause'? Which one spoke of fighting for a 'Hellenic cause'?

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

What 'wider context', explain yourself clearly.

Voltron, don't waste my time, I doubt you are that ill-informed about how many of your independence heroes or the people and regions they came from identified themselves and/or their language as Arbereshes, Arvanites, Arnauts or Shiptars (all ALBANIANS).

SOM, Im not trying to waste your time. We have a small difference of interpretation. My whole position is how they see themselves today, not how we see them. Are they of Albanian origin ? Sure, why not ? and what would be the issue in that ? Was there even an Albania back then ? Or Albanians for that matter ? That is a whole seperate topic in itself worth reading somewhere if a thread is available.

What does making common cause with Greek-speakers who identified as Romaioi have to do with fighting for the 'Hellenic cause'? Which one spoke of fighting for a 'Hellenic cause'?

End result is for the Hellenic cause. I think this is going into an issue of semantics and not substance.

[Soldier of Macedon]

My whole position is how they see themselves today, not how we see them. Are they of Albanian origin ? Sure, why not ? and what would be the issue in that ? Was there even an Albania back then ? Or Albanians for that matter ? That is a whole seperate topic in itself worth reading somewhere if a thread is available.

There was neither an Albania or a Greece back then, but there were people who spoke Albanian and Greek as native tongues. The former are more significant and famous for your independence than the latter - by a long shot.

End result is for the Hellenic cause. I think this is going into an issue of semantics and not substance.

No, the idea of fighting for 'the Hellenic cause' came later. This is not what the Albanians, Vlachs or even Greeks fought for during the 1820's, which was basically a Christian state in the Balkans independent from Muslim rule.

[Orfej]

[QUOTE=Voltron;88094] [QUOTE]

Assimilation over the years. We agree on that.

Yes, we agree on that! But we also should agree that there is a difference between regarding an assimilated Arvanite as a Greek and regarding an unassimilated Arvanite as a Greek. You see when an Arvanite speaks Albanian, dances and dresses like an Albanian etc. then he is not assimilated and is not a Greek.

Tons ? I wouldnt say anymore than any other country in the balkans.

I’m sorry but I don’t recall any other Christian ethnicity on the Balkans that assimilated so many groups in the past 200 years like the Greeks had. Maybe you can help me and tell me which?

50 K ? sure why not. I personally dont know. I never conducted a survey.
Nonetheless, no disagreement there. Again, just have someone ask these 50K Arvanites how they self identify. Again, I am not their spokesperson. I just respect how they want to be called. Nothing more .

It’s funny how all Greeks respect the feelings of the Arvanites and the `Slavophone Greeks`, but they don’t respect the feelings of the Macedonians to be called as they want! Do you disagree with the Greek majority and the Greek state about their shameless actions to change the name of a neighboring state? Can you elaborate?