The European Union - the New Soviet Union?

[George S.]

i heard on sbs radio that greece is finshed as it is defaulting.

[cultea]

(In panic) Did they say when or how?

[makedonche]

N. Farage vs ex-communist, Maoist but today`s diehard capitalist, globalist, federalist freaks;

A new democratic revolution is sweeping northern Europe - Nigel Farage - YouTube

Onur
Thanks for this one! As I said I am a big fan of Nigel and this is a good example of why more people should take notice of what he's saying!

[makedonche]

(In panic) Did they say when or how?

Cultea
The inside word is that there will be a structured orderly default - they will avoid using the actual word "default" in place they will probably call it restructuring or similar.

PS I would start taking all your money out of the Greek banks as soon as you can - while you still can!

[Risto the Great]

My goodness, I wonder if the Greek citizens can ever get their hands on the politician money grabs as a result of EU entry. Why would Macedonia even think of joining this bunch of scammers.

[cultea]

Cultea
The inside word is that there will be a structured orderly default - they will avoid using the actual word "default" in place they will probably call it restructuring or similar.

Well, no. That's the... outside word. Ant the term default is not avoided. There are three stages of default, and Greece is (or trying to complete the process) of the first one, the so called "selective default". Of course, Greece and any country have been doing this in the 70s and 80s, but it was not called "selective default" back then, rather "negotiation of debt". This is the case where you agree with the creditor, to ease the terms or drop part of the debt. It is important that this is bilateral and freewill, both essentially and technically, e.g. in a way that it doesn't activate insurances etc.

PS I would start taking all your money out of the Greek banks as soon as you can - while you still can!

That would be unpatriotic. I prefer to sink with the boat.

[makedonche]

Well, no. That's the... outside word. Ant the term default is not avoided. There are three stages of default, and Greece is (or trying to complete the process) of the first one, the so called "selective default". Of course, Greece and any country have been doing this in the 70s and 80s, but it was not called "selective default" back then, rather "negotiation of debt". This is the case where you agree with the creditor, to ease the terms or drop part of the debt. It is important that this is bilateral and freewill, both essentially and technically, e.g. in a way that it doesn't activate insurances etc.


That would be unpatriotic. I prefer to sink with the boat.

Cultea
Whichever way you present it Greece cannot pay it's debts and is therefore in default (and denial).
I admire your patriotism, but you know what they say about fools & money!

[George S.]

All i know that the greeks went overboard when it borrowed all that money.It all went against sound borrowing principles.It even fugdged the figures to make it look like it's still under the gdp.I think they must have known that they could never pay it back.I think greece & others are going to be sorry they ever joined the eu.Italy owes more than a trillion eu dollars & spain 800 billion ey dollars.
i think if they ever know who did this obviously it's the politicians they have harmed greece so much.I think it will be booted out of the eu & back to the drachmas.

[Onur]

That would be unpatriotic. I prefer to sink with the boat.

While i appreciate your patriotism, i must say that you are just being naive for this issue. The money and all the things related with it never had a nation nor religion and it will never have such things. For example, a bank which you have thought as Greek might not be Greek at all. You cannot know who really has the biggest share of it in stock market and we, the ordinary people, cannot know who is behind the closed doors and who is pulling the strings.

If money ever had a nation or religion, it would be only be jewish and it`s mecca would be switzerland or new york. Thats how capitalist world works and it`s same in every country (except few like Venezuela, Cuba).

[cultea]

Cultea
Whichever way you present it Greece cannot pay it's debts and is therefore in default (and denial).
I admire your patriotism, but you know what they say about fools & money!

It's not a matter of "presentation". I'm explaining that the term "default" is used to describe a full range of situations, from rather normal to disastrous. So, maybe, YOU should be more specific when expecting a default or speaking of a default.

Speaking of denial, Greece, at the moment DOES deny the scenarios of "haircut" or "restructuring" (the second phase of default) and believes we can serve the debt according to the mid-term plan agreed in summer.

My money will be fully or partly lost in some extreme cases:
-Greece returns overnight to drachma
-The entire banking system of European Union collapses (not just the Greek one)
-Greece withholds a part of savings or imposes a heavy tax on them.

[makedonche]

It's not a matter of "presentation". I'm explaining that the term "default" is used to describe a full range of situations, from rather normal to disastrous. So, maybe, YOU should be more specific when expecting a default or speaking of a default.

Speaking of denial, Greece, at the moment DOES deny the scenarios of "haircut" or "restructuring" (the second phase of default) and believes we can serve the debt according to the mid-term plan agreed in summer.

My money will be fully or partly lost in some extreme cases:
-Greece returns overnight to drachma
-The entire banking system of European Union collapses (not just the Greek one)
-Greece withholds a part of savings or imposes a heavy tax on them.

Cultea
Let me put this to you in a simple manner just to show you what "default" is. If I knocked on your governments door today and said I want your interest payments on the money you have borrowed, and I want it now( in accordance with our original contract)! - your government would not be able to make the interest payments or the principal payments - this means they are in "default" - the fact that they have managed to buy more time, negotiate lower rates and extensions to deadlines only reinforces the fact that they are in "default", the fact that they are in breach of EU borrowing guidelines means they are in default, the fact that they borrowed more from overseas sources after they exceeded the EU guidelines means they are in default, the fact that they are seeking a second muti billion dollar bailout means they are in default, Greece is in default, financially, legally, morally, ethically and socially. I have many Greek friends both here and in Greece and have great sympathy for the average Greek citizen who didn't have much of a clue what their government was up to and how far they'd gone - that sympathy is waning significantly because the average citizen's knowledge of the state of affairs has been common knowledge for over 12 months now and all i see the average person doing is striking to prevent loss of their entitlements and benefits. Why hasn't the average Greek citizen demanded explanations and accountability from their government, why haven't they removed the corrupt and nepotistic people in government? At the end of the day yopu get the government you sdesrve by voting for them or allowing them to stay there - democracy -remember? To that end the people of Greece are as guilty as their politicians and deserve what they are getting and that is - "default".

[George S.]

good on you makedonche well said i agree 100%

[makedonche]

good on you makedonche well said i agree 100%

Thanks George, I can't believe that they are still in denial and making out it's all ok and it will all work out, they refuse to aceppt that they are in default. That's not uncommon from our southern neighbours they are usually the last one's to get it - over 130 countries recognise The Republic of Macedonia - they still don't, more denial! Someone needs to drag them kicking and screaming into the real world!

[George S.]

i think they are zonked out on something & brainwashed to boot.THe government propaganda has done it's job on them.You could be on the titanic & sinking & they wouldn;t beleive it.These people aren't for real a typical zombie reply havent we had them before on this forum.?

[cultea]

If I knocked on your governments door today and said I want your interest payments on the money you have borrowed, and I want it now( in accordance with our original contract)! - your government would not be able to make the interest payments or the principal payments - this means they are in "default" - the fact that they have managed to buy more time, negotiate lower rates and extensions to deadlines only reinforces the fact that they are in "default", the fact that they are in breach of EU borrowing guidelines means they are in default, the fact that they borrowed more from overseas sources after they exceeded the EU guidelines means they are in default, the fact that they are seeking a second muti billion dollar bailout means they are in default, Greece is in default, financially, legally, morally, ethically and socially.

Well, no. At the moment you would receive your money according to the original contract. When and if Greece passes to the second phase of default (usually called haircut or restructuring) it will unilaterally be announced to you that Greece will not pay an x% of the original debt.
If Greece was not in Eurozone and had it’s own currency, it would be probably under IMF control (as Argentina, Turkey or Hungary were), a situation where you borrow in a low interest rate (e.g. 2,5%) as long as you follow strict policy of austerity and rectification measures. Some consider it a “default” stage, but it’s actually a stage “prior default”, or “in order to avoid default”.
What’s special for Greece (and Ireland and Portugal) is that some automatic economical processes are not here. So, instead of over-inflation and currency devaluation we’ll have the “so called” internal devaluation, Euro is rather stable but our salaries are dropping.
I asked you to be more specific on what you’re expecting, not more generic.

Why hasn't the average Greek citizen demanded explanations and accountability from their government, why haven't they removed the corrupt and nepotistic people in government? At the end of the day yopu get the government you sdesrve by voting for them or allowing them to stay there - democracy -remember? To that end the people of Greece are as guilty as their politicians and deserve what they are getting and that is - "default".

Well, the basic question is whose fault is it (and in what percentage)?
-The populist socialist measures of the first years of Andreas Papandreou (roughly 1981-1984) that raised debt from around 30 to 80% of GDP and gave Greece a short recession for the first time after the War?
-The reaction of Costas Caramanles when the crisis started (2008), when he hid the size of the problem and then essentially resigned?
-The management by George Papandreou that was slow and indecisive?
-Do austerity measures have negative effect instead of positive?
etc
The next elections will be in September 2013 or sooner and the political scenery will have drastic changes, but don’t wait exactly for… a communist government.